Lynch tactica(s)?

[Gorbad]

I think the choice of master often comes down to playatyle choice rather than strategy. So the reason you are playing Lynch is because you want to do what he does, rather than because he is the best at x.

With the number of masters per faction it's just difficult to have each master be best at something and it's probably more fun to just have them be good in general.

[Gorbad]

I think the choice of master often comes down to playatyle choice rather than strategy. So the reason you are playing Lynch is because you want to do what he does, rather than because he is the best at x.

With the number of masters per faction it's just difficult to have each master be best at something and it's probably more fun to just have them be good in general.

[Bodiless]

Yep, I feel like ever so slowly that message is sinking in about how this game works. A given master might be better at something, but not to such an extent that they are the only choice. 

[zFiend]

I like him for survivability.  Illuminated basically never die

 

Where is this coming from? They do die, they die all the time! Or maybe it's just my Illuminated's again

[Joel]

Yep, I feel like ever so slowly that message is sinking in about how this game works. A given master might be better at something, but not to such an extent that they are the only choice.

Yep. In the lat edition, this used to be a much more stark choice as the master was more important to getting things done and the crew was a cheering section to a greater extent. There were right and wrong masters for things.

In the current edition, this is no longer true at all and the crew you choose if much more important than who leads it.

[Myth]

 

For example, suppose you owned Lilith, Pandora, and Lynch, and had the models to support each. Other than "because I feel like playing Lynch", which is a completely valid reason, when would you pick Lynch over one of those two masters? It seems like if I need to add fast objective runners like Tots to my list I might as well switch out for Lilith, and if I have a mission that forces the enemy to cluster up and engage then Pandora would be the best choice I could make. What part of Lynch's expertise falls outside of those two?

 

Tots definitely don't require Lilith to be effective. I switched from Lilith to Jacob at the start of M2E because of how little synergy she has with her standard crew. In time I've realized she can still be an effective Master, but still haven't had much luck with Nephilim lists, even with the additions from Wave 2.

But yeah, as noted, lots of different elements go into who to choose, from opponent faction to the strategies and schemes. So even when I have a preference, that doesn't mean it is an absolute. I do tend to favor Pandora and Collodi for Turf War because of how much they rely on their 'bubbles of power' - but Lynch is definitely is up there in the running. The only Strategy where I would actively avoid him is probably Squatter's rights, as his crew doesn't often have lots of spare AP for interactions. For Turf War and Reckoning, I'd say he isn't my top choice for either, but has some advantages in each scheme that make him worth considering.

Recoinnoiter, though, is the Strategy where Lynch has always shined for me, and where he would be my first choice. Heed My Voice at the right time to reposition enemies can completely ruin an opponent's plan late in the round. Lynch's minions aren't numerous, but Illuminated are very capable of operating independently. If your opponent sends one or two cheaper minions to try and control one quarter, and you confront them with an Illuminated, you have a good shot at being the last one standing. I've usually tossed in some Tots to help with activations and controlling some regions, but that was before Depleted entered the picture, and they look like they can be a solid choice as well.

But as for the deeper question as to what Lynch brings to the picture that other Masters don't?

1) Brilliance is the obvious one, and it definitely can be powerful. For myself, I actually tend to run my Lynch crews without a heavy focus on Brilliance. If I get the chance to make it happen, great! But I try not to overextend myself in order to get it, unless I know for certain I can use it to guarantee a key model dies right away. As such, my Lynch crew isn't a completely typical one. Running a full Brilliance list is devastating when it works, but I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket, and I feel like that's what happens when I bring, say, a Beckoner along.

2) Tough crews. Jacob gets Hungry for free, essentially. Consider this - in Turf War, I could fill the center of the board with Jacob, the Hungering Darkness, Mr. Graves, Bad Juju, Nekima, an Illuminated, and a Doppelganger who can mimic any of the other's attacks. And still have the points for a couple key upgrades and a few extra soulstones. That's 7 models, none of whom are very easy kills, and all of whom can put out quite a bit of damage.

3) Adaptable crews. Illuminated have above average movement and durability, a solid melee attack, and an ok ranged attack. Jacob can fight in melee or at range. The Darkness can kill enemies, or manipulate them, or just fly around and drop scheme markers out of sight of the enemy. Jacob's abilities can help you build up better than average hands, and he himself can either use triggers to deal out high damage, or to weaken the opponent via Slow or Discarding. Graves brings both a melee threat to the table, as well as some free mobility for his friends. The crew can do a lot of things, and you can fill in some of their weaknesses with one or two key models.

In a Wave 1 League, I ran Lynch and Lilith over the course of it, and ended up using Lynch in 4 of the 5 rounds. My standard crew with him was usually something like the following:

Lynch (Woke Up With a Hand, Endless Hunger) + Hungering Darkness

2 Illuminated, 1 Waldgeist, 1 Terror Tot, Doppelganger, Hans

Hans gives some long-range threat, which the Doppelganger can support. The Tot can sprint for objectives. The Waldgeist and Illuminated are some sturdy front-line minions who can bring their own cover. The Darkness can be an assassin and sneak along behind terrain until he finds a key target. And Jacob can follow the Illuminated and contribute where needed.

With the Wave 2 additions, I'd probably try and make room for Graves, possibly at the cost of the Waldgeist. The Tot might become a Depleted, Hans might get downgraded to a Freikorps Trapper. But the goal overall is to have an answer to a wide variety of enemy crews, and be able to react to each opponent differently if I need to, rather than rely on one singular approach.

[Bodiless]

Do you ever run Stitched Together in your crews? They were one of the models that were recommended when people were helping me through my Stages of Perdita Grief, but I don't see a lot of talk about them here. 

[Myth]

I only just put together my first one last week. I'm planning to give them a spin, but hadn't really been thinking of doing so with Lynch. They are very much a 'gamble' model where they can pay off big - or kill themselves off without any effort required by your opponent. They can create cover, but I find Waldgeists more reliable for that. I think they are at their best when in a list really designed to take advantage of them. For example, they look like they would be great in a Dreamer summoning list when combined with his healing aura - or in a Collodi doll list when combined with an Effigy buff that heals them. (Healing + Hard to Kill is really, really strong.)

 

I'd likely bring them in a Lynch list if I was focusing more heavily on Brilliance, since Addict does make their attack more reliable. Alternatively, I might run them with Lynch for their card drawing attack, since more cards can really power him up. You kinda need to be certain that you can either win the duel or flip a Crow without cheating, since if you cheat, you are simply drawing even on cards. Unless, of course, you are cheating in the Ace of Crows.

 

When used simply for general purpose use, I see their big advantage being their nuisance factor. Get some of them in the enemy's face and watch them struggle to figure out how to respond. 7 Wds and Hard to Kill makes them non-trivial to dispose of, even with Df 4. If the enemy does spend time swinging on them, they risk damage from Rotten Contents - and triggering Eternal Nightmare to give you more actions. Quite often, the enemy just doesn't want to risk it, especially if it is late in the round and they will be vulnerable to Gamble Your Life.

 

That's really the key - Gamble Your Life needs very good timing to be of use. You don't want to just spam it, unless you really are relying on luck alone. You want to use it when the opponent is low on cards and you still have some decent cards you can afford to cheat in to win. What you really don't want to do is move in range of the enemy, attack with Gamble, lose the duel, got dropped by the damage to 1 Wd, and trigger Reactivate.... and immediately watch the opponent take their turn and easily finishe you off before you can take advantage of Reactivate. On the other hand, if the enemy is all out of models and out of cards, and you have a couple Stitched who haven't gone yet, they can really go to town and do some serious damage...

 

So overall, I definitely think they are a solid model, but not really something you toss in just to round out points. As a general purpose model, whether you bring them or Waldgeists for cover generation is likely a matter of personal preference. Waldgeists have the edge in durability, but Stitched have the extra utility of Game of Chance, and a potential for very high damage, even though it comes with a downside.

 

The other nice thing about Gamble that often gets overlooked is that it is a ranged spell. Only range 6, but no gun icon means you can fire it into cover or into combat without risk, and that can come in handy.

[zFiend]

The Stitched really become great models with the Dreamer. I tried one once in a Lynch list and he didn't really do that much then. With the Dreamer they are amazing. 

 

I feel that Gamble your life is actually not that hard to pull of at all, it's ca6 against df and doesn't care about the flips. It's quite easy to tie it to get it through. 

 

But other than that, amazing posts Myth! I would like to ask you as you seem to play a bit more unorthodox Lynch lists, how would you see Lynch doing with the Nephilim's? 

[Myth]

Yeah, I definitely often run Lynch with only a few of his standard crew. I do like Illuminated, but the truth is, Lynch and the Darkness are both really solid models on their own, and so I find that they can work well in just about any list.

 

As for Nephilim... Tots are obviously useful, and probably the most obvious fit for Lynch, since Sprint really powers up if you get the Ace of Masks in your hand. I almost always bring along a Doppelganger as well, and with the Ace of Masks and the trigger on Mimic, a Doppelganger can sprint up to 36" in one turn! So that is a nice combo.

 

With Wave 1 stuff, I did bring the Mature along with Lynch's crew a few times as my heavy hitter, and he performed well. I feel like Graves can now largely fill that some roll for cheaper, though - a bit less speed, but more synergy with the crew. Or, if you want to spend a few more stones, you could toss in Nekima. I don't see any real direct synergy there, unless you are simply going the 'all powerhouse' crew and want to fit in as many big threats as possible. Nekima does have a trigger to draw cards, which Lynch likes - but she also tends to eat up cards if you want to keep her alive, so that's a bit of a trade-off.

 

Young Nephilim always feel awfully fragile to me. I think they work best with a Master who can help move them around or provide them some survivability, and given how solid Illuminated are, I don't see them as much use for Lynch.  

 

I don't see much use for Tuco with Lynch. Lelu and Lilitu, meanwhile, are all around solid models - but again, not sure there is any specific reason for Lynch to bring them along in place of, say, an Illuminated and a Beckoner. Similarly, I don't have much experience with Barbaros, but feel that for his price, there are more useful things you could bring along with Lynch.

 

However, one Nephilim that looks like he could be a good addition is the Black Blood Shaman, as was pointed out in another thread. Illuminated with Black Blood become even more of a nuisance to deal with. And if you already are bringing some Tots, having them morph into Young Nephilim right in the midst of the enemy could be a great mid-game move.

[Bodiless]

Had another game with Lynch tonight: it was against Rasputina, Recoinnoiter, Assassination and Cursed Object, 50ss. I once again left a game struggling to understand (a) why I brought a knife to a gun fight and ( why people keep listing Lynch as one of the top 5 masters in the game. Compared to the blizzard of damage (pun intended) Rasputina dished out from halfway across the board I definitely felt very much outgunned, Final Debt or not. He brought Snowstorm, so the one time I managed to engage her early in the turn with an Illuminated he just used Snowstorm to pull her back out, and the fact that all of my damage is in melee and you only ever get one swing at her meant that he caused far more damage to Rasputina himself by cheating against Lynch than I ever did. 

 

 

 

If Lynch is really as good as people say he is, and I am struggling this hard to make him work, I am starting to think I am not a good fit for this game.

[zFiend]

If Lynch is really as good as people say he is, and I am struggling this hard to make him work, I am starting to think I am not a good fit for this game.

 

Oi, don't give up just yet. Believe me I have been struggling with Lynch against Ophelia and Viktorias like there's no tomorrow. I get absolutely wiped out of the board with no models left when the game ends. Once a slowed Viktoria took down 2 Illuminated's, 1 Beckoner and dropped Lynch to 2 wounds all from full health. Ophelia didn't have better things to do so she just oneshotted my Beckoner, Tannen and an Illuminated. All my games with Lynch end in the same outcome, I have 1-2 models half dead left when the game ends and no VP to speak of. 

 

I'm in the same boat as you, wondering in what world is Lynch considered one of the better masters, why the Illuminated's are so darn amazing people keep saying, how is it easy to get brilliance etc. That's where the amazing people on this forum come to aid. 

 

I haven't played against Rasputina but what other schemes where in the pool if you took Assasinate and Cursed Object? I propably wouldn't go for 2 schemes that involve getting close to a ranged master, one as horrifying as Rasputina from what I understand. 

[Myth]

zFiend, on 22 May 2014 - 02:27 AM, said:

I haven't played against Rasputina but what other schemes where in the pool if you took Assasinate and Cursed Object? I propably wouldn't go for 2 schemes that involve getting close to a ranged master, one as horrifying as Rasputina from what I understand. 

 

It isn't necessarily a bad move - she is much less scary if you do trap her in engagement. The problem there is the ability of Snowstorm to safely rremove her from danger.

 

For myself, I'm not sure where the talk of Lynch being a 'top five' Master comes from. Of course, I'd have trouble really pinning down an actual list of 5 Masters that I consider 'the best', since schemes and opposition come into it a lot. I wouldn't consider Lynch the scariest master out there, but do feel that he is a strong, solid contender, and think I only have a single loss when playing him.

 

I do think that 'Final Debt' gets talked up a lot more than it needs to be. In my games with Lynch, despite always taking Wake Up WIth a Hand, I think I've only had a single game where it definitively won the match for me- and that was a Lynch Mirror Match where my enemy had lots of models with built-in Brilliance.

 

It is definitely a powerful ability and can be put to good use, but it isn't something you use casually or easily. Getting Lynch into position, setting up Brilliance, having enough cards in hand to give it a big impact - those are all significant hoops to jump through. I have much more success just having Lynch focus on support, slowing enemies, diminishing the enemies hand, etc.

 

One key suggestion that does come to mind - if you often find yourself getting blindsided by late-round abilities (like Snowstorm bringing Rasputina to safety), it can be worth trying to invest in a few more cheap models for the crew, whether Tots or Depleted. Even if they don't have much they can do in their own right, they can buy you activations to help avoid being taken by surprise at the end of the round. They can also serve as key distractions - if you corner Rasputina with a Tot or Depleted, they still shut down her casting even if they aren't a big threat to her. If Snowstorm rescues her from them, you can go after her with your bigger threats now that she can no longer escape.

 

That is one of the big lessons I've learned with Malifaux. Board positioning and activation control is very, very important, and often it is worth sacrificing an attack or two in order to set yourself up for something more important the next round.

[Bodiless]

One key suggestion that does come to mind - if you often find yourself getting blindsided by late-round abilities (like Snowstorm bringing Rasputina to safety), it can be worth trying to invest in a few more cheap models for the crew, whether Tots or Depleted. Even if they don't have much they can do in their own right, they can buy you activations to help avoid being taken by surprise at the end of the round. They can also serve as key distractions - if you corner Rasputina with a Tot or Depleted, they still shut down her casting even if they aren't a big threat to her. If Snowstorm rescues her from them, you can go after her with your bigger threats now that she can no longer escape.

 

 

Given that you are going to land one attack on her at best, what actually constitutes a threat to her in melee? Hungering Darkness is the only threat I can think of at this point because all his attacks are casts. 

[Myth]

Bodiless, on 22 May 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Given that you are going to land one attack on her at best, what actually constitutes a threat to her in melee? Hungering Darkness is the only threat I can think of at this point because all his attacks are casts. 

 

Hungering Darkness's main attack is still vs Df, so he remains vulnerable to having his activation ended early. Nonetheless, with Envelop, he can take out more than half of her wounds in one swing. The Illuminated, even with only one attack, can also do decent damage with Flay or Focus.

 

And note that in order to get his Freeze trigger, he needs to be spending Tomes or Soulstones. Rasputina is similar to Hungry - she's a low Df model who relies on her extra defenses to keep her alive. Once out of resources, she can fall pretty fast.

[Bodiless]

Hungering Darkness's main attack is still vs Df, so he remains vulnerable to having his activation ended early. Nonetheless, with Envelop, he can take out more than half of her wounds in one swing. The Illuminated, even with only one attack, can also do decent damage with Flay or Focus.

 

And note that in order to get his Freeze trigger, he needs to be spending Tomes or Soulstones. Rasputina is similar to Hungry - she's a low Df model who relies on her extra defenses to keep her alive. Once out of resources, she can fall pretty fast.

 

I'm pretty sure Raspy's card specifically says Ml on it (I checked that this morning and I think we played that wrong last night). Does one of her upgrades take it to all Df? I guess I just didn't have the cards to make those attacks stick, since I only got 2 damage out of each of them.  

[Myth]

Nope, you are totally right. I remembered it only worked vs Df, didn't realize it also specified Ml only as well.

 

It is true that getting the most out of Illuminated or the Darkness can require good cards for triggers or for cheating. Unless you have Brilliance up, just running in and swinging away is usually just going to produce some weak hits, which aren't going to be any scarier than any other generic minion running in and taking a swing.

 

This is one reason why, even though I almost always take Woke Up With a Hand, I don't make too much effort to save my cards for the end of the round just to have a powered up Final Debt. Similarly, if I'm halfway through the round and don't have anything decent in my hand, it might be worth it to have Lynch activate and Mulligan so I can get some decent cards when it counts, rather than wait until the end of the round for his bonus.

 

Of course, sometimes you can stone for cards, and mulligan, and draw bonus cards, and still end up with a terrible selection. Not even Lynch can always avoid the whims of the luck gods. Though at least with Expert Cheater, crappy cards can be great for bluffing and tricking opponents into wasting high cards when they don't need to...

[zFiend]

Thanks Myth, your posts are always full of good ideas!  

 

If Rasputina specifies ML then Huggy is the go to guy. 

[Bodiless]

Yep. Which makes me feel a lot better about my game last night. I still did dumb things and still would most likely have lost, but I DID manage to sick Huggy on her. And if we had caught that interaction he would have eaten her, probably healed some, and she definitely would not have killed him and blown away half my remaining crew in her subsequent activation. 

 

Myth - Let me echo Mr. Fiend in saying thanks. Particularly for that dissection of exactly how Hungry and Illuminated are good. It sounds like they are good in sort of the same way Rasputina is good, in fact. Awesome damage *potential*, but if you don't have Brilliance up and good cards you are likely just plinking away at 2 damage per, which is not really impressive.

[zFiend]

Yeah especially that part. I have been using them as normal minions so that specific info slapped me across the face

[Myth]

Yeah, being aware of how to make damage tracks really work for you is definitely important. There are certainly models out there who can do decently by just swinging away. And Hungry can be one of them, in fact, if you have Rams to cheat in or Soulstones to burn in order to get his Envelop trigger. Similarly, if you've got Brilliance on an enemy, the Illuminated can go to town - even without Addict in the picture, min damage of 4 is where models really get scary.

 

But if you are just throwing around attacks whenever you get the opportunity to do so, the damage will take a bit longer to add up - especially when things like Armor come into the picture. This is why Illuminated are, in turn, very difficult to deal with. An elite model can certainly past them quickly. But if they go up against some average models, who are struggling to do 1-2 damage a hit, and you recover several points of health each turn... there aren't many great ways to deal with them.

 

Rasputina can unload a scary amount of damage - but only if she's getting her upper damage track. You don't have to make her miss, just get her within 5, and that negative flip can often shut her down. Not always - with any of these guys, you can always just try and hope you get double moderate on a negative flip, which isn't common, but does happen. But usually, if Rasputina wants to land her top damage, you want to force her to Focus to get it, and spend valuable AP making it happen.

[Flamephoenix18]

So to throw in an additional question into this. (I've played a few crew box game with lynch and was looking to expand). Alot of people seem to be saying that brilliance isn't the way to go. Are beckoners ever worth it? I feel like such a long range auto lure has to have some uses. I'm also curious is going the full brilliance boat worth it if you are trying to abuse Rising sun? or do you guys think it's always better to grab Endless hunger (thats the extra casting AP right? don't have my cards with me)

[EnternalVoid]

It is not so much that Brillance is not the way to go as much as you should not stake everything on it.  It is not quite like in 1.5 where you can have several enemies all having it at the same time.  Instead it is a bonus when you get it and something that can make your opponent sweat a little as he feels the threat of it.  It is much more get it on one model and play dog pile on the rabbit.

 

Beckoners are good in my opinion, but I generally have been taking just one where back in 1.5 it was generally 2.  Like you mentioned the Lure is a very useful element, more so with the trigger so they can move, lure one of your own models, and still get some more distance thanks to the trigger.  Add into it that their despicable promises does not have a gun icon so they don't worry about cover or combat it makes a handy way to tag models.  Plus is a cast so you don't worry about Incorporeal either.

 

I generally play with Rising Sun myself, but that is because my group is litered with Ca actions or people that ignore Incorporeal *I am talking about you Perdita*.  Just that when I am looking to do it I pick a target and make sure they die with brilliance when it is time.  Often by having Lynch charge them.  Generally either the Beckoner puts brilliance right before hand or Lynch does it himself with his trigger.  But at the same time there has been plenty of times he has never died and I wish he had that extra Ca AP *of course they might not have targetted him as much because he could come back*.

[zFiend]

How about this, didn't get to try this one but:

 

Doppelganger + Huggy, use the Doppelganger to Mimic Heed My Voice and then make them target Hugster to gain paralyze, it's dirty for sure but it also works hand in hand with Ace in the hole  

[Bodiless]

Yeah, being aware of how to make damage tracks really work for you is definitely important. There are certainly models out there who can do decently by just swinging away. And Hungry can be one of them, in fact, if you have Rams to cheat in or Soulstones to burn in order to get his Envelop trigger. Similarly, if you've got Brilliance on an enemy, the Illuminated can go to town - even without Addict in the picture, min damage of 4 is where models really get scary.

 

 

Following up on this, I got in a game last night with Lynch against Pandora in which I really focused on making the damage tracks work to my advantage. In particular, I tried to be aware each turn of who could reach that 'min damage of 4' mark and to ensure that I did that as much as possible. I think it really helped to sharpen my thinking. Hungry and Lynch will both hit that with a  , so unless I absolutely needed one of the other triggers I cheated into that as often as I could. Including one time where I cheated down to a tie with Hungry, since the    was more than offset by the fact that I only needed 4 damage to kill the target with that attack. I'm not sure I would have made that connection last game. Illuminated (and the Doppelganger Mimicking Hardened Brilliance) hit for a min of 4 with Brilliance on the target, so don't send them after a target without it unless you absolutely need to. My opponent referred to Hungry and the Illuminated as 'wrecking balls' after the game, so they must have been doing SOMETHING right.

 

The other big difference in my game last night which certainly helped is that it was against another new player, as opposed to most of my games which have been against our veteran cadre (like Myth). The crew was not as optimized, and it generally gave me some space to make silly mistakes without getting swept off the board for it.