Raging_Iggy

@zavros

With 10T you can hire at 16 misaki, can't  be obeyed, has soulstone use for her critical strike, and has a + on charge for 6 DMG. Moreover, she has awesome reach and mobility

Just a thing about silurids: yeah, they are fast and have awesome mobility, but a dedicated beater with focus oneshots them. And quite every crew has at least 1 max 6 damage beater.

A curiosity: how is possible that JuJu died to 2 activations? There was some damage on him? Unlucky prevention flips or lucky damage flips? It was a personal choice to not use a lot of SS?He literally can't die so fast with 9 (+4) wounds +2/3 regen between the activations, htw and soulstone preventions

New test done, yesterday. We tested turf war with new conditions (so good news for Ldreaming). 

Removed a total of 19 cards in 3 turns, thanks to the new stunned that lets our summons to use FA. I didn't remove lots of 1/2/3s, however even if I removed a 9mask, 10crows, 12 tome, after 15 cards were out of the game I started flipping lots of severes. The general feeling was good.

As I wrote in the previous 2 tests, I pushed as much as possible with 4 starting Ldreaming, even if I started with a super bad hand of 10,1,2,4,5,4.

Moreover I should say that with this push the Dreamer didn't use the buried models bonus, the summoned Alps however used it sometimes, when I activated them before using the unbury effect of the models in bury state.

56 minutes ago, bedjy said:

Also be aware that with the new mechanic, you will probably be able to reshuffle your deck more often during each turn. So you'll get straight benefits from removing the cards in the current turn. Also, the probability to remove a severe from the deck is very low so removing cards only increase the chance to flip severes while straight flipping.

I'm working on this. Trying to min/max the Ldreaming thing with good options in crew. Yesterday I tested in two similar matches, I was quite impressed but can't judge for now. I think that ~50 games can be ok for a good evaluation of Ldreaming. I think that the point is that if we can dig through 2 decks at turn 3-4-5 (each of these turns), Ldreaming could be sometimes even stupidly good ( here I must go back from my first thought ). But that's just a first impression after the first reckoning game, in wich, at turn 4, things started exploding with severe damage even with - flip (pitched lots of low cards, only an 8). In the second game I had bad luck (even if I had a godly starting hand of 4 severes)and the first 8 cards where all above 4, and also an 8, 9, and 10 (here my personal choice of pitching a 10tome instead a 9mask).

The crew comp was: Dreamer, Chompy, 2* daydreams, stitched+pact upgrade, Serena, Hinamatsu, Rider+reflexes, 6ss

With this crew I tried to maximize the digging (10 cards from daydreams, 4 from stitch, 3 from Chompy. Hinamatsu+rider when in close combat just dig an entire deck alone. I must say that I didn't however flipped a bad BJ, like in the Rider moonlit charge or Dreamer's summon. In both games I always used Ldreaming, because I think that only that way we can see how much can be good (dig 2 decks per turn, that should be the goal). Obviously using it after some high cards flipped, you know how that should be done.

3 hours ago, Angelshard said:

Should this ability be changed? I've seen a lot of solid arguments for why it might be too much. Many other crews rely on positive conditions (or poison in the case of McMourning) and  the ability to strip them away simply by targeting, and gain a + flip on top, can seem extremely good.

I'm not sure it is too good, after all most woes are relativly short ranged, but I can see how it might come across as such. Plus losing a condition, without any way to stop it, sucks.

Honestly I think that in a pure woe crew it's fine, woes are so squishy they kind of need to take the opponents tools away to survive.  But when I can hire an aversion for 7 stones and guarantee removal of my opponents +2 shielded or focused, it starts becoming a problem.

I don't have any good ideas as to what it could be changed to though. Anybody? Or am I on the completely wrong track and opportunist is fine as is?

I agre with @Hawkoon , the removal /change to opportunist is a big change and not the first option to consider. I'll also point that the aversion at 7 is not worth the SS and will go down istantly. However, probably Candy at 9 can be a good hire in some crew builds. 

While testing, i feel that opportunist is a strong ability that i would not like to lose. I can't say that is overpowered tough, should test more. Even if we don't consider a rock/paper/scissors match, the ability to shut down enemy focuses is really good, because prevents the focus stacking on melee beaters. I think that the balance (if necessary) should be on the other skills/actions of all crews, to give the opportunity to not apply the condition, if the user doesn't want to (such shielded,  "the target MAY gain shielded"). 

Consider also that leaving Pandora without opportunist (as she is currently) can already be an adjustment (i tested when she had opportunist, and not the actual ability). 3 less AP to strip conditions and gain + is a lot.

6 minutes ago, Adran said:

I think you misunderstood the point I was making. I was referring to the cards left in the draw deck on that turn in answer to people worrying that they would just be moving severe cards to the discard pile for no benefit. They will but they will also be moving weak and moderate at a similar rate. Your overall deck is much more likely to be improving than getting worse.

I'm not sure you do have diminishing returns (until you just have a deck of 12s and 13s anyway). The improvement is small per use,. but will keep going.

I also seem to have a different mentality on fast actions that may be because I'm used to fewer models having them. I view them as a nice extra on models when they have them, but not something that you're likely to want/be able to use every time. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, a agree with you for the discarding issue. That's not going to hurt more than 2* 13s flipped in a damage flip of 1/13/13.

7 minutes ago, Andrew James Princep said:

Why don't you just look at the figures I posted above and judge based on that? 😅 should be fairly easy to decide if you think that's worth it

I don't need to answer to my question. I already have my opinion and shared it in this thread.

That's a question that all of us should ask ourselves, to judge if Ldreaming is balanced or not. Just an extreme example: if you always start thinking that you would like another FA instead Ldreaming, then Ldreaming is bad. If you are thinking " I would never trade Ldreaming with anything", than it's too much strong.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Lots of people feel this, but I'm not sure that its actually a real thing. Removing cards at random from the top of your deck does not automatically make your remaining deck worse. (Sometimes it will, but sometimes it also makes the deck better, on a roughly equal rate ). 

Its a perception, and one where there is some confirmation in that as you look at the discard, it looks more like you were running a hot deck (because the worst of the 3 cards doesn't make the discard pile) but its not supported by facts.

The text in bold in what i think is the real problem about this action. 

I really like the idea behind this deck customization. However, I hate the chance of removing a high card, but even if you have some luck and keep removing 1/2/3s, the improvement is really small and SLOW. Furthermore, you will hit a diminishing return, and so there are 2 solutions:

- stop using fast actions

- try more luck but probably fail in the dimishing return trap

Both solutions are pretty bad because leave you or with minimal to none improvement, or without fast actions (because aside Chompy, other models don't have another FA). And in the meantime, the opponent is using his FA for pushing / moving / focusing /. Not counting the fact that at turn 5 the LDreaming is completely useless if you don't have heavy card draw ( probably low amount of miniatures in play, more movements and less slycing so less digging into deck). 

The question is: is really worth using a FA for removing cards for a small advantage (and than not using FA at all in the hole game) losing a potential push / move  as a FA? (like others can have)

Aura of deception is really bad. In 3e most of the time you will need all the cards you can have; this means that 90% of the times, you can't cheat face down a low cards (poker face on) just to try to pitch a high card from opponent's hand, just because you'll need that card for protected/flurry/pass 1 or more terrifying/ demise:eternal and so on.

However, I don't think a 4 ss model should deserve a lot more as an aura, but the "shame" is that our emissary, a 10 ss model, has this aura as the only fast action available to him

2 hours ago, kylevalent said:

Pandora has an ability called 'Despair's Influence' which adds the suit of the discarded card to its final duel totals until end of phase. What does this means?

1. The target get the suit on one duel of his choice (if he want to declare)

2. The target get the suit on all of his duels that phase?

I don't know if i'm reading too much into it because it's written until end phase and final duel totals, while most of the trigger are written final duel total (no s)

 

Thanks

The second one

Just a doubt that has come to my mind within these days of testing..is correct that Despair Influence range is "All the table"? It was 10" until some weeks ago, but now has " - "

@Adran 

@Dejavu

@Hawkoon

I obviously agree with you about the fact that the maths are more complecated. For this reason I restricted to 1/2/3s and also because I find that 4/5s cards could be useful, expecially masks.

However, not counting the crew composition (that's just too personal to speak about) I supposed that tracking ALL card numbers in a tournament game (of 2 hours/ 2 and half - 5 turns) it's too much cluncky to do. With these assumptions, I think that at the current state the action, is clearly useless imho. Probably it's funny for those who like more luck involved in the game. I personally really like the flip+cheat system of Malifaux, and don't like these actions that involve too much luck, where I have only a small control over them. Not even considering the fact that if you are not using the action because you flipped low cards, than you are not using it (so it's like the text was white).

But maybe I'm too much conservative as i'm also a chess player, we'll see.

1 hour ago, Hawkoon said:

I tried dreamer last night but only got to play 2 turns. During those turns i removed a 1, a 2, two 3's, a 4, a 5, a 6 and a 7. That's 6 weak cards and 2 low moderates in just 2 turns, and it didn't require any setup at all. Seeing as it gets more risky as you trim, it's quite limiting in regards to abuse but I think it's quite powerful as it is. As i didn't get to play more turns it's hard to say if it's too good or not, but it's far from weak or pointless. I'd really like to see how it works out in later turns before jumping to any conclusions.

I disagree completely with this, no offence intended of course. But i think that for this action, playtesting isn't usefull. It's just a matter of math, and a matter of what people like more, or enjoy more. Do you like taking high risk, hig reward, actions? than yes, this is really nice action. However, if you don't like to take so risky actions (like me), than this action is just useless.

Here some numbers:

- we want ALL 6+ cards to be in our deck.  There are so many strong actions with a TN of 6+ that i would never want to fail, just because i removed a 6+ card.

- i think also that all 4s and 5s should be in the deck, at least Masks. But this is a really personal opinion, because there aren't many actions with so low TNs  ( Serena's heal, Daydream's move, Coppelius push and Coppelius Slow, some others )

- if you want to remove only 1s,2s, and 3s, than you have a pool of 12 out of 54 card. This means, helping us with math, that you draw 1 of these cards every 4, or 5 cards. So the odds of  removing a 1/2/3 card are against you. You must be LUCKY to draw a 1/2/3 card and remove it. Otherwise, you are using an action to remove cards that can help you in the game. This is the real thing. 

And this is not my opinion, it's just math; you can say that the action is funny, CAN be good with help of LUCK, but not that the actions IS good. And when you will draw 3 x 11+ cards, well, you will cry. That's it.

I add another thing: removing cards increases the odds of flipping BJ/RJ. We all know that BJ has way more impact in game, than the RJ. How many turns you end with 5/10 cards left in the deck and the BJ hidden there! So, increasing the odds of flipping BJ is a nice drawback, if i removed bad cards. But what if i removed usefull cards? that's just bad

16 minutes ago, Caspergad said:

she is already very strong against beaters... since the stronger the opponent the stronger she is... I've played against her, and think she is in a really good spot (beside as posted earlier, I think selfloathing should be restricted to once per turn/activation/target when using/copying the effects of once per turn/activation/target abilities (seamus gun and so on)) imagine how strong it would be to just go tit for tat against a strong beater while they're also slinging cards for terror... I can't honestly see why she should have that kind og def tech... 

she's a master needing to be close? excuse me, but slapping a model like taelor with her relic hammer (which only has that damage profile due to it being melee) on range 10 no gun, stat 7... i don't get how that's a master staying close... yes her pulse is there, but come on  

It's not so easy as you described imho. If you look at Taelor you'll see that Dora will hit with stat7 against Taelor's 6, maybe Taelor also will have concealment (and in this case, with actual Dora's nerf...you know). Taelor can hit Dora 2 times thanks to her 11" range, with stat 7 against 5. Moreover, if your opponent is smart and prepared the hand with a few high Rams, Dora will not be able to stone against.

Yes, if Dora has IR, there's no problem. Otherwise, the odds are not so good for her. This clearly is just for speculation, because in game you will never have a Dora vs Taelor "match"

Personally I really don't like the new version: too much luck is needed to dig into a 1/2/3 card. There are only 12 of them, so 1 every 4/5 cards. Moreover, I would never use this action,  due to the removal chance of very high cards. I'm usually a conservative player, and don't like these random abilities (as also gamble your life)

What do you thing about our upgrades?

Personally, these are my thoughts:

- Ancient Pact: it's on a good spot, after the nerf of the +2 omens, it's OK. A good take sometimes.

- Inhuman reflexes: I like it almost for the butterfly jump defence. I usually take it just for that extra defence, if i think i'll need it. 

- Eldritch magic: IMHO really bad upgrade. Final veil is so much situational, don't need dispel magic because we have so much better condition removals. Counterspell is nice to have, but not worth 2 SS, and only minion only

Generally speaking, i also find that we have a really small amount of sturdy minions to carry upgrades (to use the 3rd skill/ability effectively)

21 hours ago, Chilbi said:

Just a thought I had on her but still needs to be tested:

Hinamatsu in a Titania Crew with Queens Champion. With the champion upgrade Hina gains ++ on Attack Flips, can cheat face down, Drops up to 4 scheme markers for Titania to heal from etc. and gets armor 2. Combined with Malifaux provides for some nice healing.

Thoughts?

I don't have much experience with Titania, but I would say that there are better targets for queen's champion. 2 points for an upgrade are a lot, so you should maximize them.

Let's look at the 3 bonuses of queen's champion:

- armor+1: I think it's worth more with someone that doesn't already have armor

- flip + : as for armor, a model that already has a +, it's fine. You don't need so many + for the melee attack, flipping 2 cards is ok, 3 cards are overkill and sometimes also too much (if BJ is waiting in your deck;) ). Instead, if you give + to a model that doesn't have it normally, that is an awesome bonus.

- schemes deployed on attack: this is a nice bonus due to melee master, but I think that this bonus alone isn't worth the deal. For queen's champion I would look first at Nekima ( armor +1 and +flip here are awesome ) or rider (not for armor, but +flip here is really nice)

I hope you will find some useful informations here above

18 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

Has anyone tried using Vasilisa to deliver a Fast-able Hinamatsu (with FIVE attacks) into the enemy crew Turn 1?

It seems like potentially great fun, but also dropping half your stones on a relatively fragile two model gimmick is probably terrible.
It also probably denies Strum to the rest of your crew, as Vasilisa is probably left hanging in the breeze.

Vasilisa (9ss) + A Friend To Talk To (2ss) + Strum the Threads (1ss)
Hinamatsu (9ss) + A Thousand Faces (1ss) + Something else maybe, I don't know.

 

I ask here rather than in the Hinamatsu thread because public opinion seems to be that you'd never play Vasilisa outside of Collodi.

I would never leave Collodi without Strum

I think that 20-21 point are way too much for those 2 models, if you need to murder a thing (not to much sturdy) is probably more efficient point-wise a fast Coryphee + Collodi pushes (I like this for vendetta). Hinamatsu is ok and really good in Collodi but will go down if left alone inside enemy crew.

On 8/6/2018 at 6:45 AM, Old Major said:

I am wanting to come back to Pandora for a while and wanted to play the brawler style. Not optimal i know but i find it fun. Whats the latest take on the must haves for brawler Pandora? if possible i want to take Kade and a Teddy just because, i want not lose every game but am happy to not be optimised and go with theme instead. Pandy, Kade, Teddy, Poltergoost, 3 sorrows, iggy, what else?

I think there aren't "must haves" (maybe models that you take 80% of the time) but here my take on pandy brawler:

Kade now at 6 is fine (even if he works better in Woe is me), personally i don't like Teddy, i think there are better options. IMHO always take Pmagic rather than poltergeist, 3 sorrows are way too much, 1 is fine (if you want a sorrow at alla costs) and you already double the damage without losing too much versatility / toughness. 

Models i use frequently: Insidious Madnesses, Lilitu, Dopple, Lust, Rider, Iggy.  Sometimes: 1 Sorrow, Changelings, effigy, Kade, Wisp. Rarely: Coppelius, Barbaros, Emissary. I don't suggest to use Nekima in brawler pandy: you can't sustain both with stones. 

Hi, actually played her a lot with Collodi, where she shines. With other masters she loses a lot of efficiency, because with Collodi she can:

- take 2 DMG and gain fast (strum the threads). This gives her 5ap, and even without other pushed/moves, a treat range of 5+7+2 with a charge, and 5+5+5+2 with 2 attacks

- take the buffs from brutal or arcane effigy (fated)

- take the buffs from Collodi (fated): defensive is pretty good with "Faster than naked eye" if you have a bad hand

- she can push Collodi turn1 with her melee master Aps, thanks to the + flip and low damage (in case of extremely bad cards)

Generally, the Thousand Faces upgrade will give her a lot of versatility.

With other masters, I think we have better options, and she loses so much compared to Collodi that I never tried her in other crews.