cbtb11235813

2 minutes ago, dannydb said:

but if you have the gamin activate within an oxford mages aura range i guess you can choose to remove the slow and then replace it so the the golem doesn't come in slow?

Yes but that is not unique to things Sandeep summoned, that is just what the Mage does. 

2 minutes ago, dannydb said:

also which gamin do you place in in base to base with? any of the 3?

Per the Replace rules, yes any of the 3 you choose

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

When Gamin combine, is that going to result in a slow Golem? Does the new model count as attaching the summoning upgrade during the replace?

According to the replace rules for summoning upgrade, I'd say yea


As for summoning Golems when hired as a secondary, I personally don't see it being an issue (having only two summon upgrades means you have to have hired gamin to do it), but I wouldn't be opposed to making it a leader only ability just to be sure. 

I agree with @retnab that the criteria need tweaked for future proofing. I think everyone knows how this is intended to work, but RAW is weird, and will only get weirder in the future. I like the demise option, and have never liked Banasuva's demise anyway and wouldn't be sad to see that changed. 

I had sworn off Sandeep for the remainder of beta testing, but I've been wishing for Golem summoning for months now, so I gotta try this. Everyone, please ACTUALLY TEST this before theorycrafting it into oblivion (seeing way too much of that during the open beta)

That is how he works, he's been this way since week one of closed beta. I don't think it is an issue. Since a charge is a push, he gets 7 inches straight ahead or 5 if he has to go around stuff. Makes sense to me for a raging bull 

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I’ve never been a postion where I’ve wanted to stone for more than one suit at time so didn’t really think about it.

from the current ruleset:

Enhance a Duel: Before any cards are flipped in a duel, a model that can use Soulstones may spend a single Soulstone to add a + to its flip. It may also spend a single Soulstone* to add a suit of its choice to its final duel total. If both models involved in the duel can use Soulstones, the attacker declares its Soulstone use (or lack of use) first.

*emphasis mine

10 minutes ago, BFOmega said:

What's with your meta and clumping things up? You had the same-ish thing in the Raspy thread, with her shockwave markers hitting like 5 models a piece. That's not really something I've seen happen or heard of happening outside of what you talk about, and in those situations anything that's AoE is going to get exponentially stronger.

Irresistible damage is definitely something to keep an eye one, but I think a master ap and a model are probably a fair cost for it. It only needing a 4 to cast is maybe a bit low, but the 10 you needed in 2nd was crazy, especially since that one came with a simple dual and didn't draw a card.

Side note- Are there any obeys that can target masters now? Because if so, Ramos is a gigantic liability going into those matchups.

Yea I don't know why my opponents clump so much. Those examples are also 2 different opponents, and a 3rd one learned the hard way last week as well against Ramos. (I did tell him ahead of time DO NOT CLUMP lol)

I'm glad to hear someone else chime in that its a fair trade, considering it is a master AP and a model.

As for obeying masters, I sure as hell hope not. In 2e, Ramos was a never-take into Arcanist because Marcus existed, and it would be so much worse now

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I’m picturing Colette using a nearby Dove to add a tome and a mask to Presto Chango and drawing a card from the Dove’s demise ability on a regular basis.

Unless it changed and I'm unaware, you can only stone for one suit. You still need either a tome or mask in hand

So as a Ramos lover, I'm trying to be as fair as I can on both sides. He may need his Detonation toned down a smidge. In my (relatively small currently) meta, Ramos has already definitely gotten a reputation for being absolutely brutal. The amount of irresistible damage he can put out is intense. My all-time record is close to 30 in a single turn (might have been 26-28? This was a while ago). Granted, I was playing a super clumped up Hamelin crew and managed to get a couple spiders in range to hit 7 different models in that turn, but still, it definitely felt bad for my opponent to lose half his crew turn 2. Proper positioning is incredibly important against Ramos. But even with good positioning, it is not terribly difficult to do 6 irresistible damage to a model, and draw cards in the process (but sacrificing a model or two, which is the balancing agent). Is that overpowered? I don't know. But it is something to note. I think since that damage requires you sacrificing perfectly usable models (especially now that summons are significant) it may be fine as is. Maybe it needs a high Mv resist, but I'm afraid that would slow down the game a bunch. I don't really have a solution to this problem, if it even is one, but I think it is something that needs mentioned.

7 hours ago, retnab said:

Legendary Inventor I think is a bit redundant now that he has a keyword, I'd argue he should either lose it or make it more restricted (Construct Henchmen/Enforcers maybe, since his keyword already covers his minions? But then it's already covering Joss, and a good chunk of the versatile are already constructs, so really I'm just talking myself back to the "remove it" side again)

Personally I like that he gets lots of constructs. Metal gamin for example, wouldn't make any sense to have Machina, but work fantastically for him (and historically have as well). Especially since he is DMH and unlikely to get any new Mechana models, I'm in the camp of "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

Edit: Also, Legendary Inventor currently allows him to hire certain Masters as Versatile, and has for awhile but has not been changed. Personally I love this, its very fluffy (Ramos being one of the founders of the faction as a whole, and in the story he is always pulling together the different masters to further the cause). But I have not tested him with a second master yet because I assumed this would get changed, since hiring other masters without the tax isn't a thing anywhere else is rare, with Lilith/Nekima being the only other example I can think of. 

@matt or @Kyle , any chance you could enlighten us if this lack of change is intentional or an oversight? If intentional I'll gladly test it asap, but if not I don't want to "waste" a game doing so.

It has been a long time since I've played Raspy, but I was able to abuse her shockwave a little. I had all the masks I needed, and was able to hit 4-5 models with the shockwave, for a grand total of 6 times (granted I had to discard for each trigger which hurt). But that slowed the game to a screeching halt while my opponent had to flip double digits of cards, for which there was almost no point in cheating because it was just going to happen again. Now this was due to some pretty bad misplacement by my opponent but still

Echoing the above, I'm not sure the "loop" needs fixed. It takes a Master action, and for her to already have a suited card and spend the stone. That seems like enough restriction one summoning a 2 wound model

The "ignoring targeting restrictions" was specifically written to deal with the Protected/Disguised interaction. They can still hit her

Granted, there may be room to take it down a notch, but if you have armor piercing and/or stunned on tap it becomes much easier to deal with. Which, if your opponent declsres Collette you should assume they'll bring a duet. And if it's taken outside of her crew, they paid 13 stones (more than 1/4 of your hiring pool) to "sneak" it in 

Question: have you actually played with/against it? Or are you just theory crafting (which I've been seeing way too much of). Ive played both with it, and against it (hired, and summoned back when that was a thing). I haven't found it to be too much in my games, considering its cost, and I played these games before the nerf to its stats. 

Having Collette yet again rely on a defense trigger to survive just seems terrible: see M2E. Even moreso when now there is a generic condition preventing triggers. I wasn't planning on testing Collette (other masters I like more that need work) but I think I'll get a game or two in with her to help do my part

The scoring system for the tournament looks very interesting

Soulstone miner seems to be edging closer and closer to useless with every update

Big hit on the Emissary, will have to see how much it hits him

 

41 minutes ago, Andrew James Princep said:

actually, no effigy can do it  

An effigy with the upgrade can, but Its not obvious to me how common that will be. 

...which means any effigy can. Which means every factions has, at the very least, one versatile model that can do it

5 hours ago, Andrew James Princep said:

If you use Dart Out on the bandersnatch and there is no model with a Shadow Lair upgrade, you would return to the deployment zone as there is no legal target for the unbury effect. 

 I think this scenario could be avoided if Shadow Lair were amended to say "if the model with this upgrade is Killed or Replaced, ..."

 

But really, replace effects are not common unless facing certain crews. 

Well every effigy can do it, which is not nothing. I think that is certainly enough to justify rewriting the upgrade a bit

4 hours ago, retnab said:

Sounds like a wild game! Did Ramos get much summoning in?

Quite a bit! I had unusually stellar hands (started the game with the 12 and 13 of tomes, and got the 13 back turn 2). Summoned a swarm to bully titania turn 1, then most summoned metal gamin (which was legal at the time, but now is not) for even more scrap, or spiders as cheap explosion targets/blockers. 

1 hour ago, kaintxu said:

How with 10 fate tokens he was missing a mask? He could have use 5 of those to guarantee it was going out. 

To my understanding, you need a mask in the first place to get the action off. You can discard tokens "when declaring triggers" which is after determining success. If you did not hit the TN (with the suit needed) you never get to the declaring triggers step, so never get the opportunity to discard tokens to add suits

This game was a few days ago and I'm doing this from memory, so I apologize for mistakes/ambiguity ahead of time

Strategy         Turf War
Scheme List    Detonate Charges (Neverborn)
                     Search the Ruins (Neverborn)
                     Take Prisoner (Arcanist: Autumn Knight)
                     Outflank
                     Vendetta (Soulstone Miner -> Rougarou)
Deployment    Wedge
Time              Finished 5 rounds in 2:30

Arcanist Crew
Ramos + 5 Stones
Brass Arachnid
Joss
Metal Golem
Soulstone miner + Magical Training
Metal Gamin
Arcane Effigy + Effigy of Fate
Steam Arachnid
Steam Arachnid

Neverborn Crew
Titania - 5 stones
Gorar
Autumn Knight
Autumn Knight
Rougarou
Rougarou
Bultingin
Hooded Rider

Turn 1 - Mostly positioning, Titania's crew moves much farther forward than Ramos' due the the 7 Severe terrain markers that the Fae put mostly on my side of the board

Turn 2 - Fae move father forward, establishing a presence on the left side of the board, leaving Gorar in their deployment zone to babysit the turf marker. Ramos' crew launches a full assault (almost every model used) to attack and kill Titania. Putting that many actions into her that early certainly slowed me down, handicapping my points for Turf War. Both score for Turf war

Turn 3 - Effigy turns into Emissary, conveniently body-blocking Ramos from the Rougarou that had run up to threaten him. Emissary softens up the Rougarou, and SS miner pops up and charges to score for Vendetta. The fae start setting up for Search Ruins. Rider is now in my left corner, a Bultungin has taken the turn marker, and Ramos' crew is basically dug in on the bottom right quadrant of the board

Turn 4 - Rider (with 10 fate tokens) runs into my crew to go to town, but can't flip the mask for Moonlit Charge. Ramos retaliates by blowing up a spider, turning it into an EC, and blowing that up for 6 damage, and is hit by a random Red Joker from another EC. Metal gamin chases down the Autumn Knight (who had challenged the Metal Golem then ran in the corner to hide) to take her prisoner. Two Rougarous (Gorar turned into one) flank Joss and set up for Detonate Charges... So Ramos detonated one of his own. Ramos sacrificed Joss (with 3 power tokens), turning him into an EC and blowing that up as well. Simultaneously denying that scheme and doing 9 unresisted damage to each Rougarou killing them, which flipped a turf marker to deny a Strat point as well. *This activation was what won me the game, in my opinion*. 

Turn 5 - Autumn Knight fails to kill Metal Gamin, Arcanist finally scores second point for Turf War, and Neverborn score second half of Search. Soulstone Miner never took damage, so full points for Vendetta.

Final score 6-4 to Ramos


Model breakdown and thoughts coming later






 

17 minutes ago, Jwinks said:

I will be trying my hand at Ramos hopefully in the near future so these clarifications and posts are very helpful.  Has anyone tried creating a crew with a metal gamin just for the scrap makers it drops for Ramos?  I am really wondering if it is a worthwhile investment for the additional scrap and to help breach the limitation for 2 or three steam arachnids early game.

 

If memory serves, I've brought a metal gamin every single game I've played Ramos. Never regretted it. Last game I brought both the gamin and golem, it worked well

I really like the new changes. I will definitely miss summoning metal gamin, as they were a significant source of scrap for me. But the new upgrade is pretty great 

39 minutes ago, nomadicXnightmare said:

I think it's a good addition. I was ok with him before for the most part, but I realize I'm in the minority there.

Interestingly I noticed @Kyle listed Joss' changlog notes under Outcasts. I assume this was done in error, as his stat card is still found in the Arcanists' pdf and his allegiance hasn't changed there, but it had me curious/intrigued for a moment.

I sure hope that's an error lol. But I am super happy he's getting his arc axe back 

22 minutes ago, matt said:

This will be updated in the next update to : This Action can be taken while buried. Unbury this model anywhere on the table, not within 6" of the opposing player's
Deployment Zone.

 So it can unbury right next to an enemy model? Not complaining, just making sure we understand