WWHSD

55 minutes ago, retnab said:

Just gonna copy/paste my Carlos thoughts in here from the other thread:

Thinking of ways to merge the Performer and Wildfire keywords for Carlos, how about this: Lose Fiery Presence, Butterfly Jump, and Breath of Fire.  Gain Dancing in the Flames, Blaze of Glory, Celebrity, and Arson with a trigger to drop a Pyre Marker in base contact with the Scheme Marker before removing it (call it Pyrotechnics)?

(On a semi-related note, should the Golem also get a way to dump out Pyre Markers, maybe on a similar trigger on its Flame Tornado to give Kaeris a chance to compete with Banasuva for PM creation?)

I found that Arson is a rarely used ability on other models that have it and having Carlos trade Breath of Fire for it would be a nerf. It’s a great scheme marker removal ability but a poor attack due to the required setup.

I think that giving him the ability that Draugr and Elijah have to reduce Burning by one to gain a plus flip on an oppossed duel (and maybe putting him back to Df6) is all he needs. It removes his self damage problem and either boosts his offense or defense as needed. 

1 hour ago, Boomstick said:

The saber got turned off turn 2 when he flipped the Red Joker on Df, and after that, I didn't want to bury any of his models, as he had enough schemes out that they would be able to come up in more problematic places.

The Colette player picks which scheme markers enemies unbury next to. I'm not sure from what you wrote if that is how you played it. 

8 hours ago, trikk said:

I don't know if she didn't loose too much (I wish Mental Trauma was 2 dmg) but I like the general direction she's moving in.

That affects more models than Colette though. 

7 minutes ago, Terrordactyl said:

The Healing Burst trigger on Healing Energy (ver 1.31.19)reads:

 Healing Burst: Models within 2 of the target Heal 1.

Is there something somewhere that precludes that from healing enemy models? Or is it intentionally worded to heal friendly and enemy models? Or just an oversight?

If the first option, could that rule be pointed out to me? 

Thank you!

That will heal enemy models as well as friendly.

30 minutes ago, valkirsWrath said:

But their movement ability is still tied to pillars. However I did not think about the move portion. Might be really good on stuff like detonate charges. 

Even without using being able to use the Ice Path ability, I still found them to be worth their 6 stones in a performer crew. I think they are better in a December crew and have less overlap with other December models than they do with other Performers but I think that is fine for models with more than one keyword.   I can still see myself hiring Ice Dancers for Colette's crew into the right encounters. Being able to move a scheme marker gives you an easy way around not being able to drop a scheme marker within 4" of another friendly scheme marker. 

I think I'd find it hard to not hire them into Dig Their Graves or when playing into Resser crews that need to corpse markers.  

4 hours ago, valkirsWrath said:

 On the topic of dancer and Carlos. I believe that their problems lie in the fact that the performer theme works with all crews but the ice pillar and pyre marker themes doesn't work with performers. I feel like I have to hire something like a silent one to get value out of my dancers, or anything that works with pyre markers to use Carlos. I might still be thinking of him like the tank /tarpit he was in M2E however,gonna play him today and see how I feel. 

The Ice Dancers don’t need Ice Pillars to be on the table for them to be good. That ability allows them to move Ice Pillars or Scheme Markers. Moving Scheme Markers with it is incredible. You can have one of your other models drop a schem marker and then have the Dancer move it to where it is needed or they can move enemy scheme markers out of scoring position.

1 hour ago, dannydb said:

so I'm surprised at how little sandeep chat there is considering how many cards the crew can cycle though.  I mean take 3 to 4 elemental within kandara's range and the hand cycling becomes quite something. added to this the shardstars always drawing on cheating mechanic, i mean I've never used them previously but now that you can cheat to cycle cards, I've just put low cards with the same damage result just to get a new card.

 

and the pyre markers improve now and while kaeris lost a few things to compensate for it, this is just another bump for a fire based sandeep crew. i'm tempted to be soloing him for the time being. 

 

and yet collette gets all the spot light!

It seems like most factions in M3E have a crew that has good card draw. People are used to playing against crews with strong card draw and it’s not nearly the level of NPE for most people that Colette’s shenanigans were.

Pyre markers got a bit of a buff but I don’t think that saying that Kaeris’s crew got nerfed as a trade off is accurate. An additional model gained the ability to move Pyre markers and Kaeris’s new ability to move Pyre markers got a TN adjustment the week after it was added.

Unlike M2E, Sandeep is easy to kill. He doesn’t have movement tricks to let him slip away when you go after him, he doesn’t have an ability that heals himself, and he doesn’t have Hard to Wound. His ranged attack can also be shut off by engaging him and suffers penalties due to cover.

7 minutes ago, solkan said:

Oh, great.  😓  

I miss the version of those rules where any wounds that the model being replaced were distributed among the replacing models.   

At this rate Coryphee Duet won't have Dance Apart again this edition.

That's how the Duet has been since the Closed Beta began. It seems like people flip out when they first realize that it's a thing but after they play against it a few times it doesn't seem so bad.

Go look at most 10 point models. A lot of them have some way to get more than two attacks an activation or have a better damage track than the Coryphee Duet has. Why is the Duet making 4 attacks across two activations any worse than Hinamatsu getting to make up to 6 attacks in a single activation? 

6 hours ago, Liched said:

• Decent engagement range

• Execute. And with stat 7 and a probable -flip for opponents makes even weak crows in your hand valuable.

It's got a 1" engagement range which is rather average.

What is giving the to the target's Defense and why is it probable? I can't think of anything that the Performer crew does that gives flips to Defense. 

When the Duet is split into a pair of Coryphee, it's Wp drops to 4 making it quite easy to hit with anything that targets Wp. 

50 minutes ago, solkan said:

How is the Coryphee Duet healing itself?

If a Coryphee Duet is at 5 health and replaces itself with a pair of Coryphee, they each come in at 5 health. When they combine and replace themselves with a Duet it comes in at full health.

All the stuff you’d bring to deal with the new Colette are the same things that will deal with the Duet. 

9 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

That's a shame to hear but wait for some bat reps to come in. I'm sure Colette is in a better place than you think. I'll try to get a game in vs @Hollingydale with Colette over the the next few days and report 

I'd be interested to see how she does vs. Von Schtook and his crew. Lecture Notes should cause her a ton of trouble and the Hard to Wound + Armor combo that a lot of them have going on should make it hard for most of her min damage 2 crew to push any sort of damage through.  

2 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Is Colette not going to bury after one hit from the min 2 dmg joss? Seems like a good plan

Play some games with it and see how she does. I've played over 30 games of m3e now and would be super happy with that defensive set up on a model 

His one hit is going to be a focused attack, so he'll probably be dealing 4-6 points of damage each hit.

Malifaux is dead in my part of the country. I don't think there's been a game since the end of the closed beta. I don't suspect I'll be able to get in another game before the beta ends.  
 

Just now, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Whilst what you say is correct. You realise that still makes her better defensively than most masters in the game right?

I think you (not you personally but performer players) were spoiled before by her immense abilities. She's still really really good and hard to deal with even if she has a few counters (which isn't uncommon in m3e or a bad thing)

I don't think Joss kills most other melee focused masters and completely removes their ability to deal damage in two activations.

16 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Hey sorry everyone

You are still talking about a DF 5 WP 6 model with serene countenance that buries after 1 attack against most things. How are you moaning about her DF abilities? She is still in a great place. I could understand if she had rubbish stats or very low wounds but that's not the case. I love Colette thematically and want to see her on the table but with the greatest respect to everyone it seems the knee jerk reaction is from the Arcanist players not the game developers here.

Looking forward to seeing how the changes play out on the table 

She's almost to where she was at in the end of M2E defensively, except now she's a melee model. How much Colette are you seeing get played these days?

22 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Hey all 

Let's be realistic before we get upset about Colette 

She takes one hit and is buried, still has serene countenance, this is still a phenomenal defensive set of abilities and given the healing and condition removal in your faction, still leaves her in a really strong place. I actually think she's probably exactly where she needs to be. Really elusive and hard to deal with but not a NPE anymore. Looking forward to playtesting this change in the next few days 

Stunned does stop damage output but she's still a massive debuff engine that can shut down the best parts of your opponents crew. I think she's in a really good place now

Because of Serene Countenance, it's likely that whatever is attacking her has focused and is going to be able to cheat their damage against her to make the most of their one attack. If whatever's attacking her ignores damage reduction, she's only probably going to be able to take 2 attacks before being killed. If it's against Wp she'll need to cheat or stone to bury. If it's an attack against Sz or Ht she just eats it. Most of her debuffing comes in the form of Distracted which can be removed by any model in the game for less effort than it takes her to apply it. Colette can no longer afford to jump into the middle of multiple models to hand out Distracted, and the range of that has been severely reduced.  If she's hitting multiple models with her close attack in a turn to spread around the stun, she's probably in a spot that she does not want to be in. 

3 minutes ago, Boomstick said:

Holy crap you're right! Well, there's more reason not to bring her against Bayou (Zoraida) or Neverborn for the same reason (Zoraida and Pandora).

I have utmost sympathy for the design team, Colette is such a specific type of difficult to deal with that changing her defenses a little bit takes her from being vulnerable to indirect damage, positioning, and card discards (which I maintain is enough, though it will be a tough fight for some crews) to ineffective against sooooo many things.

I think she's probably in close to the same boat that she was in near the end of M2E except now she is much more dependent on getting close to multiple enemy models to be effective

2 hours ago, susannymn said:

She may be the only Master in the game now that doesn't have a damaging melee attack (double check me on this), barring the right triggers. If she gets Stunned, she now dies, pretty easily.

Assuming that she doesn't get the trigger on any of the attacks and she attacks the same model 3 times, almost her entire activation is negated by 1 action a severe card. 

12 minutes ago, Boomstick said:

I'll add more later, but my initial concern with the changes to Colette (agree they feel knee-jerk, hitting so much at once) but defensively, changing Fade Away to a trigger that reduces do puts her right back into the problem area from the end of M2E: anything that does irreduceable damage now eats her for lunch, same with things that don't allow resistance triggers. In M2E this effectively made her a dead pick into Guild, Gremlins (due to Zipp), Thunders, and a bit into Outcasts.

Major difference is in M3E you announce you master before crew building. Ideally so you can add an out of theme model or two if the opposing crew needs specific tech to take them down.

Here's a rough breakdown of current models that do Irreduceable damage or disallow resistance triggers (not including shockwaves and blasts, which already get around them)

Models that do irreduceable damage:
-TT: 8 (1 at range), plus a hench with an anti trigger 6" aura, and 2 anti-trigger minions 
-Arcanists: 1, and an Enforcer and a minion that don't allow triggers
-Bayou: 3 (2 at range)
-Guild: 1, plus executioners not allowing resistance triggers.
-Neverborn: 0, but lots of Wp attacks where she'll be needing the suit (which she needs for her self-bury and presto chango)
-Outcasts: 2, both ranged (Levi and the bandmate), a versatile minion that doesn't allow triggers, and another Jack can bring in from Ressers.
-Ressers: 2, 1 ranged, 1 anti-trigger minion for Jack.

For any I missed, apologies, as I said, it's a quick list.

Based on this, Colette is never going to be taken against Thunders, three separate themes all have easy access to ignore her defensive tech, and easy access to focus to ignore serene countenance.

She's probably is going to have a rough fight of it into Gremlins as well: Wong's models are the ones with irreduceable damage, plus all his shockwaves, and his crew is going to be a good take against Arcanists anyway to ignore armor.

Guild doesn't seem as bad as in M3E, just keep away from the few issue models.

Outcasts, probably not a good pick either, since Levi will again be a good pick into Arcanists in general to ignore armor, a versatile minion anyone can grab, and Jack does a lot with Wp.

So, looks like she's once again in a very bad place against almost half the factions.

I realize this probably sounds doom and gloom, but having to mostly shelve her after many brutal games since Wave 4 and 5 hit (when more models with irreduceable came out), I've already been through this once and was excited for the closed beta to ensure she'd be in a good place for M3E.

*Puts on a costume for the next performance* Don't worry, I'll be backing this up with batreaps. So many batreps.

That list doesn’t include anything that would stuns (all of Swampfiend) or prevent her from Cheating does it? Both of those will shutdown her ability to use her trigger as well. Also add in any attacks that target Mv or Ht, those completely bypass her trigger.

2 minutes ago, kaintxu said:

Do you not own a computer at all? Vassal will run pretty much everywere.

Nope. I've got a computer provided by my employer that I can't install software onto, my phone, and a Kindle. 

2 minutes ago, retnab said:

There are people asking to playtest M3e on vassal daily on the fb group

That would require me to buy a computer for Vassal and learn to use it. It would also mean giving up the human interaction involved with playing miniatures games.

6 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Please get the Performer Crew on the table and play games, then provide battle reports. Show us that these changes were too severe. It's easy to speculate, but we need data.

I’d love to but it’s possible that not a single game of Malifaux has been played in Southern California in 2019. It’s hard to playtest a game that everyone has stopped playing.

Just now, kaintxu said:

Maybe al places should be like this? It was a massive advantage for big bases

Not really, since all of the big base models with flight had their Mv stat dropped when Flight became a place.

6 minutes ago, retnab said:

Reread the flight change, Mv 6 with flight is now moving only 6"

I'm not a fan of the change to Flight. Now it's inconsistent with the way every other place effect in the game works.