Fixxer

3 hours ago, gertermit said:

Well, I don't see a good universal teem for Mah.

Mah's idea - to go forward and to beat the opponent's models. But there are only roosters who can create attacking pressure. Brin and Trixiebelle are marvelous, but they are supporting models. 

I dont think that is the case. I dont think she is an aggressive beater master or crew. I think she dictates board state  by interacting and setting up her schemes early and making her opponent spend actions cleaning up the mess. At that point she can utilize her movement tricks and support to separate models even more, or flat out kill them. She doesnt have the df tech to go into the teeth of other beater models/crews. Its a clever and deceptive approach to spreading them out and picking them off. You have to use the entire board and force your opponents hand. 

With a crew that has so many pushes and scamper on every card, its easy to move a model that has already activated out of engagement. Either your model (scamper) or theirs (lure, horrible hollerin) and at that point your bushwhackers should be getting shots off with their 14" gun.

Pit traps can be used effectively with Mahs crew. She has a trigger to push models with knock aside, mass hysteria and she has horrible hollerin. Trixie can lure models into them and most of her crew have triggers to move models.  

Positioning will be so very important with this crew but that will come with time playing it into multiple scenarios. A 1" or 2" could be the difference between getting the most out of this crews synergy and thats where the skill comes in, IMO. 

Good conversation for sure.  

On 2/26/2019 at 8:22 AM, HipsterWhale said:

We have 3 bushwackers. But I don't see a world we're you ever take more than 1. 

I guess nobody here has played a plant explosives/ corrupted idols with corner/flank deployment and outflank and/or power ritual being in the pool.

Most of crew building, IME, has to do with considerations surrounding the deployment and S&S. Opponents master can dictate a bit, but I typically look to build crews around schemes that will force my opponent to have to stop me. Dictate  the board state as early as possible and force an opponent to chase. 

  I think bushwhackers force the opponent to have to stop you. If you deploy two near corners and protect them with pit traps, you are forcing your opponent to have to go deny them.  Mah is very good at disrupting that denial with her pushes and the fact that her crew is built around holding models up or killing them flat out. Not saying they can do it all on their own, they'll need the support, but with from the shadows they can be deployed in position without spending any AP to walk there.

In plant explosives give them bombs and they can have both planted in corners on turn 2. In Corner deployment your opponent will have a difficult time stopping them if they didnt bring any "from the shadows models". Corrupted Idols can be similar with the +1 to initiative from the crew itself, you can dictate a little better that the idols will either go board edge or 8" from the edge. When deployment is in a corner or flank this basically  makes the game take place in the corner of the board. Pit traps are more effective due to how the board tapers down to a point like that. You are basically forcing where the fighting is going to take place and taking advantage of that.  

Mech chop has reckless, same as roosters, survivors have magnetism, mah has pushes, trixie can lure friendlies, Brinn can reactivate models with a scheme marker, scamper... There is SO MUCH GOING ON HERE with this crew obtaining extra movement. when played properly all of these models can get somewhere fast in order to support their forward deployed bushwhackers. 

 I again dont see a reason to change either the Bushwhacker or Roosters or Mahs crew at all. I think she is a dark horse and will be a solid master to hire in certain S&S. Her audible to a construct heavy crew, just like Brewmaster or Zipp, add layers of options. Depending on the opponents choice of master a construct crew may be the way to go.

9 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Which other crews have do you consider him an auto-pick in? I've avoided him due to the 9SS cost (8+1), but I'd love to try him out. Just can't seem to find the right spot.

Ulix is where I see a lot of play with him. 

I see a lot of his abilities, actions, and triggers being useful for pigs and such. Reactivating a model to die for a scheme marker of bacon can be very effective. The extra cards, card draw, protected, condition removal, etc... 

Sparks has analyze weakness, you tend to bring him into construct heavy crews... he is an efficient counter pick to what your opponent declares. He's not someone you force into a crew because you feel like it.

Although if you really want to, here are all the Construct options in the faction. A lot of decent +1 options depending on the S&S. Im not sure I'm seeing an issue here. 

Soullstone miners-Keyword- 

Survivors 

Test subjects

Mech porkchop

Effigy

Emissary 

PIgapult

Iron Skeeters

Whiskey golem

Whiskey gamin

2 hours ago, gertermit said:

Rooster riders are GREAT!

the rest of Mah's crew makes me a little bit confused...

Do you have specific questions? What is confusing you? Perhaps the community can help you find the role of each model in the faction. Where they might be useful in terms of S&S. 

On 2/26/2019 at 4:37 AM, HipsterWhale said:

Yeah the ability to just gunline people makes a lot of nongames. 

I disagree completely. What is your opponent doing? Do they have more than 1 crew to play? There is counter play options in each faction against whatever could be brought. If someone declares Mah tucket, Von Schill, Perdita, Ophelia.... what are you going to do? There are a lot of shooting crews in this game and they wont all be nerfed.

53 minutes ago, bedjy said:

@Steve-El-Tragger @GrumpyGrandpa : may I know what part do you disagree with ?

A lot of calls to change things that havent proven a problem. You guys want to mess with roosters and bushwhackers and I see 0 reason to do so... 

I dont think people need to explain themselves when they disagree.

If you were aware of the proximity of the Tuckets land to the Foundry, you might understand why her crew does make thematic sense. 

Mainly I feel like Mahs crew is totally playable, has thematic flavor, and offers variety in approaching S&S. 

Roosters are 7ss models and are worth every SS, they arent over powered at all when compared to other 7ss shooters in the game. They're fast, fragile, and vulnerable to aggression. Nothing is too fast to catch, either. Hire the models you'll think you need when a master has been declared.This has all been discussed in another thread on Roosters.... 

I think the call to change things up at this point isnt necessary. Mahs crew hasnt proven to be weak or under-performing. I dont think she's a very popular master and perhaps thats why there is a lack of data on the subject but I currently dont see a design flaw or a lack of synergy/theme.

In fact, I think Mah's crew will be a dark horse, and not just due to bringing x3 roosters all the time... Her crew is simple and effective at fighting and controlling a specific point on the board. With the pushes, focus, a melee master, pit traps, and mass shooting elements her crew has everything it needs to compete. 

48 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

That makes way more sense. Thanks fixxer

They could really add "of this model" for clarity though. At least make it consistent across all cards.

Its within P3 of Mah. 

Its on HER card as a trigger and doesnt say "target".

It pulses from her position after the model is moved. 

The other gremlins/friendlies surrounding Mah are motivated to focus due to her use of language.Thematically makes a lot of sense. 

5 hours ago, Andrew James Princep said:

I guess you never watched Fight Club

Oh yeah, but that would be a "self loathing" action... not the "sin" ability if I'm understanding the narrative correctly and its translation into table top game rules. 

We see a similar scene in the groundbreaking film "Liar Liar" if you remember that one.  

There are hundreds of Malifaux models. So many of which have static poses, seriously. Check out your own collection fellas. 

IMO, I feel like the bitterly negative reaction is a bit ridiculous. The sky is not falling, there are no tricks, and its a bit unfair to insinuate a lack of ability here. Opinions are simply that though, we all have one, I'll just voice in opposition. 

The model is a different version of the previous. Holding his rifle over his shoulder in a relaxed, hit man waiting to be hired, kind of way. I dont mind one bit.

*also it looks like he's been working and able to afford some steak dinners lately... good for him. 

Love the card layout. 

Well, they're the same cost... and arguably the Sniper is better by as a lone operative and has plenty of abilities on his card to make up for a measly gremlin shooting as good as him. Gremlins are pretty impressive little creatures, IMO.  

Like,  ignoring concealment, friendly fire, deploying from the shadows, a bonus action to get out of combat, more triggers, assassin (for getting that 3rd ap), and access to a 24" shot. 

So almost as good...

I would imagine that people would hire the Katanaka most of the time if they had the choice. 

29 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

I don't think comparing the sow and the roosters is really fair. 

 

The question comes down to how many times per turn are you attacking. The sow needs to position and needs to get into melee. 

 

The rooster can sit still and kill anything in a 29 inch circle for the most part. 

 

As for them being barebones I mean I would have them say

 

Scamper

Good ol boy shotgun

Same Melee but no multicharge

Reckless. 

 

And that's it.

 

They currently do much more due to the rifle they have. They very rarely have to take an action to move so that means they can rattle off 3 shots. Not just 1. If the range of their gun was less then they would have to move some of the time. 

Do you play with much terrain? 

 Concealing? Hiding models? I think stat 5 should help here a little... but yeah. Good ranged option for a faction that uses guns. 

I just think they’re fine in terms of your original question in the first post. 

Agree to disagree. Hopefully they stay the same . 

This is a horrific change.

On 2/14/2019 at 10:57 PM, I'm a Teapot! said:

This is very sad and one of the worse charges of the upgrade. They were in an ok spot, not very good. 

Now they are just overcosted and lost 50% of their signature ability cause a monk copying their style was to strong with it. 

Why doesnt shenlong use his own style and the moon Shinobi get to do what the always did, which is be a unique cool model in an ok spot Power Level wise. Good pick vs some masters and overall good pick vs ressers but not oberwhelming but super fun to play.

This...

Change Shenlongs damage track on that upgrade or make his drunken style specific to him in terms of how that upgrade works. 

2 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

I think mahs team already struggles with so many expensive models. I would drop them to a cheaper cost and make them barebones save the either reckless or their high movement. 

They already are "barebones"... They're significant living missiles, thats it.  

They dont support other members of the crew, they dont do anything but fight or scheme run. I really dont see a reason to change them at all. 

If you're having issues with them, hire models to deal when you hear Mah Tucket declared. Hiring based on opponents master is a big deal. I know its been said a bunch, but this sort of reaction has to do with your lack of hiring the right tools. Perhaps try some shooting or faster options when you hear Mah Tucket. 

They have stats of 5 for both their attack actions. They have a 0" engagement. Their bonus action hurts them and helps them get to their grit ability.

I really cannot see an issue here whatsoever.

They're definitely going to suffer if they go to 8ss. At that point you'd really need to raise their attack stats to 6 and possibly their health to 8 (to be consistent with other 8ss beaters across factions)... would you prefer that instead? 

  Wow... I'm at a loss. Luckily opinions like these are subjective. Your friend might not be a "control" style player because that's what he does and its thematically accurate and translates to the tabletop very well. But, that's my opinion. 

I think he's incredibly fun to play and has a play style/theme unlike anything else in the game. A man with all the resources the Guild can offer represented in his card draw and resource oppression.

False witnesses, investigators, lawyers, and the scribe all of have excellent abilities and synergy together. The changelings and Doppelganger are excellent NB additions as well. Agent 46 is a scalpel and works perfectly as Lucius's personal assassin. I feel like his crew is a well oiled machine. Not easy to wield and has counter play, but with practice can become a really strong option into schemey pools. 

My experience with the crew was nothing but a great time on the table. I was very pleased even after my very first game with him.  

  3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Intent!=clarity of the rule. Asking if something is intended to work the way it does doesn't mean the rule isn't clear in how it currently works.

Did the devs intentionally realize they were including a situation where a model could attack itself and flip both sides of the duel? Maybe, maybe not. Thats what we're wondering. 

  3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're not, I'm just trying to reconcile having differing opinions about two situations that are mechanically the same.

Well they are mechanically the same but feel completely different in terms of a game interaction, IMO. A model attacking itself and defending against itself is weird. A model attacking its friend and the friend defending itself makes more sense in terms of representation of a physical interaction playing out on a game board. I dont think its a good representation of game rules to have models resolving any attacks against themselves despite the sloppy clause in the rule saying they can.

 Mechanically the same, I get that. I just dont think its a good rule for newer/returning players to have to deal with on the table. I think it would lead them to believe there are a bunch of other ridiculous and nonsensical interactions throughout the rules. 

Also, I envisioned the use of this ability for mainly making enemies attack other CR7 models (most, have manipulative) to make them waste an attack on one of his friendlies while also capitalizing on Df triggers that exist in that crew. Or in the right situation, making them attack a friend and perhaps waste cards. Whatever... 

  3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

so, again, why is a model being forced to attack itself wonky but not being forced to attack another model friendly to it?
 

Because I think it feels dumb to attack yourself and defend yourself especially when, in game terms, we have a representation of that attack action with Pandora and Candy. Makes the narrative confusing. 

@santaclaws01

I get you. Thanks for all your input and help.  LOL.

24 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

tha is some dubious logic. Just going to the general open beta forum I can spot at least 5 threads on the first two pages that have rules questions plainly answered in the rule book. If you've spent any amount of time on the m2e rules forum you'd find that a large portion of questions asked are plainly answered in the 2e rulebook.

Well, this isnt a completed document. We are still in an open beta, many of the questions about rules will be about intent as the original post an my posts mainly speak to. Sure the rule works as written but is it the intent? Many times the Devs have been shown these sorts of things only to come around and change rules because it WASNT their intention.

Understand your position here and sorry if Im annoying you

24 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

36 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

 

What's to stop a model from relenting against itself? Additionally, relenting is a choice, it's not the default.

I know that.  

24 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Are you now saying that Wrath shouldn't be able to force the attack onto friendly models period?

Not at all... 

10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

How is it wonky? What about that is wonky? How is it any different than a model attacking one friendly to itself?

Relenting... 

Not being FORCED to attack a friendly model against your will. 

Dont need to ask me how its wonky again, I've explained myself. We obviously disagree @santaclaws01  

 The original poster brought up an interesting point about the ability and I agree that it doesnt seem intended for the reasons I've explained. I could be wrong or dumb or whatever... I play Malifaux though so I hope my opinion is warranted. 

27 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

What is wonky about it is the question? From a fluff perspective sure, but from a rules perspective it's the exact same as targeting any other friendly model.

It isnt clear. You have to read into the Ignoring targeting restrictions clause in order to figure out you can have a model target itself. Just like LexLocks original post, it doesnt seem INTENDED and I agree with him. 

If it is, they could clear up the text in the rule. 

Models attacking themselves and being able to cheat either the DF or attack is wonky. 

-Reminds me too much of M2E and all the crazy BS you could do with abilities that slipped through cracks. We need to get away from this sort of thing in M3E.

Newer/unfamiliar players will be like, WHAT? Attack myself... Can I cheat? yes... Okay, so its just me flipping cards against myself... its a weird interaction way outside of how an opposed duel is supposed to work. 

On 2/18/2019 at 1:53 AM, LexLock said:

Consumed by Wrath says:

When an enemy
model within 6 declares an Attack Action
targeting a friendly model, this model may
discard a Sin Token from the enemy model
to choose another target for the Action,
ignoring targeting restrictions, that is in LoS
and range of the Attack Action.
 

(emphasis mine) Does this mean that if say a model charged Wrath, hitting him and gaining a sin token, he could discard that sin token on the second attack and make the model attack itself? Normally models aren't able to target themselves with an attack action but Consumed by Wrath ignores that.

This seems pretty obviously unintended to me and a bit too good for a 7ss model.

1 hour ago, Andrew James Princep said:

They could cheat down even if you made them attack one of their other models though, what do you imagine is the difference?

The wonkiness of targeting yourself with an attack action. 

I know the callout box about breaking the rules, no need to reference that. 

I just think the ability referenced is sloppily designed and written. Kudos to Lexlock for finding the corner case use. 

Ignoring targeting restrictions would be if he Sined off a Charge attack to Serena who cant be targeted by attacks generated by charges. The Sin would ignore her restriction and she'd take the hit regardless of her Disguised ability. 

I dont think a model attacking itself really does any good. Its not an obey, so the acting model would flip both cards, if Im not mistaken. So what, they cheat down to miss themselves? Its kind of a silly interpretation of the rule, IMO. 

I dont think this is the intent at all and would ask for clarification.

6 hours ago, Euclid (#ScottishMeta) said:

So i've played quite a few games with this upgrade now.  Trying it on various different hard to kill models in our faction - Bad Juju, Hooded Rider, Teddy etc.

 

Buttefly jump on these models is waay too strong.  I've been playing with this EXTREMELY fairly, making sure to constantly remind my opponents that I have butterfly jump so they aren't wasting AP by charging in and only getting one attack, etc.

 

I know this has been brought up before, but this upgrade hasn't changed for a long time - so Wyrd presumably thinks this is OK?  What are all your thoughts?

Opponents need to utilize focus more.  

NB needs something defensive on their upgrades and this is it. No damage reduction, just a simple Mv.. Its not that bad. 

Honestly, the knights and their challenge action are extremely underrated. I always bring at least one when I play Titania.

The Emissary is great with Titania, he can add to the amount of terrain on the table and has some nice synergy with Titania being able to move markers around. He'll get flips while attacking models in severe terrain. Also he ignores concealment which is big against certain crews. I play with this model a lot and see his tankyness as the best attribute. I tend to heal him up as much as I can and force the opponent to try and deal. All 6's on stats, armor, and HtK... whats not to like!? 

I would also recommend the hooded rider as an alternative to Kill Joy.  Speed kills, having ride with me can get Aeslin or a knight up close to do some disruption. 

I actually have only brought Killjoy with Titania a couple times, he is absolutely skippable.

Rougarou however are not. This is her best minion, no question. Triggers on a rougarou attack are ALL really good. I would recommend that box and Bultungin for some cheaper minion options...  at that point her crew should be solid.