whodares

2 hours ago, Shafaar said:

Also swap upgrade on YL is a (0) so you should always do that. I tend to start with Misdirection/Fortify and swap to Reliquary/+1Wp while needed. 

Once you go above 3 upgrades you can't ever swap those upgrades anymore. Yan Lo's (0) only lets you attach additional Ascendant upgrade. It doesn't allow you to change any non-Ascendant upgrades. That would be way too broken OP.

The way I play Lynch is a way that won't allow me to pick Cheating Bastard as a viable option. I think of my playstyle as Huggy Missile. Turn 1 give him fast + 2 pushes from the Emissary (8" deep already) and then get into as many models as possible. Be annoying and soak up AP.

While Cheating Bastard is great, Huggy just dies too fast to anything casting or targetting defense (cough 3 cough). When going anything else than Rising Sun I need to bring a lot more stones just to keep Huggy alive, so I might as well just invest those stones in Rising Sun.

The upgrade swapping with Terracotta Warrior seems nice, but it's basicly an upgrade that costs 5 stones AND requires really good timing on your part. A bit too soon and you lose a lot of power, a bit too late and Huggy is truly dead. I prefer to bring a Brother instead which gives me some cooler effects and decent scheme running potential in a Lynch crew.

I feel like the upgrade is extremely strong if it was on any other master, but Lynch has to sacrifice too much to bring it to the table.

1. You don't want to activate last = no 2 free cards = lower Final Debt and less hand setup for next Turn
2. Huggy becomes mortal unless you bring in a Terracotta Warrior for 5 stones AND manage to use it at just the right time
3. Huggy is already made of paper against casting or anti-incorporeal due to def 3 which makes him rather easy to kill for good
4. You can't use Huggy as a giant AP soak anymore due to him being killable

These downsides are too big for me to take the new upgrade over Rising Sun.

7 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Alps won't work either, they give slow the same way the Knights do. 

Doesn't their attack have a built-in slow if it hits? I think he was referring to that.

I'm quite saddened you didn't mention the Disguised trick

On 20-9-2017 at 12:52 PM, Amayasu said:

I may be off-kilter here, but i've been pondering a sacrificial Charm Warder. It's 5SS which you could ultimately turn into a 5SS Ashigaru with Toshiro.

 

So Yan, a Charm Warder and a Goryo walk into a bar.

Goryo cuts himself for a Seishin.

Charm Warder Disguises Yan.

Yan activates, discards for a Chi, eats the Seishin for a Chi, Severes the Warder for a Chi and then kills the Warder for a final Chi, giving 4. Yan (0) for an upgrade.

Yan spends the rest of the game Disguised (as the Warder never again activates) and has enough Chi for Casting Expert and +1Ca or Ash upgrade on next activation, and you only need one severe as two weaks is enough to kill the Seishin and finish the Warder.

Warder is living so Tosh can summon off the Corpse.

I'm not sure if it's worth it, but 4 Master AP and Disguised seem compelling on a master that likes to get into the thick of things and needs the Chi early.

It also helps with your point that you make in the Blood Ascendant upgrade: you really need that 5 Chi to actually work. Ca 5 is too low for the extra AP. This way you get Disguised, Blood Ascendant AND can discard Turn 2 for that extra Chi to go to ca 6.

In the Weaknesses, I would also mention ca attacks as they pretty much bypass all your defenses. Incorporeal will not help you, which leaves you only with Impossible to Wound. Play against something like Rasputina and you will get demolished by the min 3 damage on her casting attacks.

Perhaps mention that Reliquary can only resummon Ancestors and that you really need to bring them if you plan on using the upgrade. You only make a mention of "resummoning key models", but that won't work in your Obsidian Statue list.

In your core crew you mention Low River Monk, but nobody seems to be carrying his upgrade. I feel LRM is only worth it if somebody actually brings it and they need to stay within certain parameters of LRM for it to actually work. This could be good info to place there as well.

For the rest I find it a decent article. You make good mentions of the power of Yan Lo and also the possibilities he can go for. You seem to love Lightning Dance as much as I do, which is also a +

EDIT: just realised I forgot something important here. in the article you mention FtF and that it generates Chi. You then say you can get up to 3 Chi because they calculate independantly. Asami's upgrade card which does thesame thing (but summons instead of giving Chi) mentions that all VP are gained at thesame time. I highly doubt getting 1 Chi per strat/scheme is legal, so I hope Wyrd clarifies that soon!

39 minutes ago, Amayasu said:

The Goryo isn't needed. If you want 4 Chi on Turn 2, then killing the Charm Warder and finishing with 3 is fine, get your 4th on the second activation. Personally I take a Goryo anyway, so, I get that 4th Chi on turn 1 for free... ish.

Except you can have CA 6 vs CA 5 attacks on Turn 2. I'd prefer to be able to blast my opponent with an extra Chi if I can get the option.

In my opinion Yan Lo becomes such a more powerful master with extra Chi that I'd rather do 3 attacks with 3 Chi than to get Blood Ascendant on Turn 2 the way you describe and do 4 attacks with 0 Chi. 5 is not a good main stat for a master if his attacks depend on it. 5 means a whole lot of models can tie or go above you when you are attacking them. Having that 6 means you are in a whole other category of attacks and your attacks have a much higher chance of passing or obtaining card advantage.

I'm also in favor or having a Goryo with Yan Lo. He brings some much needed armor ignore in our faction AND he can spawn free activations AND/OR misdirection targets.

People not rushing the 3 Chi was at least a bit logical as you wouldn't buff your attack with that extra Chi. Blood Ascendant completely changes that game and becomes an extremely powerful upgrade as it also benefits from having more Chi AND has a better damage track than his default attack.

Not getting the 4 Chi Turn 1 would only be logical if you're going against an Alpha Striker. Otherwise you're just gimping yourself for the sake of not being "cheesy", trying to be "creative" or just playing a friendly game. In tournaments only the Alpha Strike should stop a Yan Lo from going for the 4 Chi Turn 1 due to the powerboost the 1 Chi extra gives on Turn 2.

Don't forget: your new (0) Lightning Dance uses Chi, your heal uses Chi and your attack uses Chi. Everything Yan Lo does uses Chi!

Must admit, that combo brings a lot of added value in comparison to the normal wastrel combo. Sure it's a bit more ss intensive, but on the other hand you get the Disguised condition. Not a tough desicion imo.

What are the cards you need to pull off this combo? I'm not familiar with the Goryo.

I can see:

1. any card for discard
2. Win to kill seishin (High for Yan or low for Seishin)
3. Severe for Charm Warder
4. Kill Charm Warder (same as Seishin)
5. POSSIBLE 9+ for Ashigaru summon

Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

57 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

I was thinking of using beckoners to lure people to lynch who then kills them.

With ca 7 and cheating last you're quite sure of getting people to you.

 

I thought beckoners only have ca 6? Lilitu has ca 7, but we can't get het here unfortunately

I like to do something like this as well. If the strat and schemes don't require you to leave your home base, just bring them to you and wreck them with Lynch and Huggy.

I've been thinking about that as well. The thing with Kade is that it NEEDS the model to be engaged with another model. Else his damage spreak becomes pathetic.

Rougarou are also tankier, which makes it harder for the opponent to shut down your murder zone.

Lastly Rougarou are minions, while Kade is an Enforcer. If you have the Emissary, you can take the generic conflux to boost up the minions, which Kade isn't.

I'll agree with you that Kade can be better under IDEAL conditions. With is I mean the enemy is always dead after the flurry of attacks and he never has a chance to attack Kade. If the enemy survives and managed to land a counter attack OR he manages to get a model charged up to Kade, he's gonna fold rather fast.

15 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

 

@whodares; I suppose it's theoretically possible to get the upgrade Turn 1, but if you get that upgrade with one of your actions you won't be getting the extra AP until Yan's next activation, so that's a whole lot of high cards for +1 Chi. Since at the start of your next activation you're discarding a card for a Chi already and can attach an upgrade for free it seems far more work than you're getting rewarded for. And if you absolutely must you can always pop a Soul Porter. 

There's a pretty big difference though. In your scenario you either lose an activation or have Yan Lo at ca5. In my scenario you still have all your activations and ca6 if you discard a card next turn. Having that ca6 makes a huge difference for Yan The Man.

You can also grab 1ss upgrade, cast 3 times on ca8 and then use (0) ascend to get that final AP on ca5 in.

Getting that fourth Chi is extremely gamechanging in my opinion as Yan becomes a much bigger powerhouse in Turn 2 that way, while still keeping his 2 upgrades intact.

I'm kind of sad right now I didn't get the latest versions of the playtest as I know Obsidian Statue was changed a bit and I don't know what the wording on it became. Since it seems to have a nice trick with Misdirection and Toshiro for Komainu, I can't wait for the book to come out. Too bad I always get the digital version

Has anyone here gone for 4 AP on Turn 1 already?

Unless I'm missing something, this should be possible.

You can do the Wastrel trick so you can get the 2 Chi on 2 AP, still have a third AP left. Attack something like a Tengu or a Brother and cheat in another severe. Due to having 2 (0) actions you can now even heal him while you are at +4 Chi (+3 ca cap) AND still upgrade afterwards.

The downside is you'll need an additional severe card and if you use Toshiro summoning, you'll be burning through a lot of cards already.

1. 1 card to throw away at the start of his activation
2. 1 low card for cheating with the Wastrel
3. 2 severe cards for Yan Lo
4. 1 Medium card for the heal
5. 1 9+ for the Toshiro summon

That's a full hand that needs to align, which is really rough. It does grant you the 4ss Ascendant upgrade, which can be key to have right off the bat and will still only lose the Wastrel as Yan's heal probably heals the second sacrifice to nearly full by itself.

26 minutes ago, Mutter said:

I usually got the Fast just for getting an Ascendancy upgrade every turn, but when this somehow didn't work out, it was Chiaki or Yin who got a swap, yes. But FTF will just make that even easier, I guess.

Does FTF allow for attaching thesame upgrade again or is it worded that you can't? Because then you wouldn't even need the Terracotta Warrior anymore for the upgrade swap stuff and that single upgrade would give you a permanent fast Emissary.

I haven't seen the cards yet, so all I can use are the reference in the upgrade threads. Sure hope they release soon as I can't wait to try them out.

42 minutes ago, Mutter said:

Since most VP are scored at the end of turn 2, you don't really benefit from the extra Chi till beginning of 3rd turn ...

That's what I meant, but misworded it a bit.

42 minutes ago, Mutter said:

In practice, I found I almost always had Fast on him anyway (but then I'm always using a TW with him, so that might influence my view).

But I still agree that FTF seems very fluid and powerful, and I'm leaning towards using it as a staple, too.

I'm guessing you used the Recalled Training trick with him or swapping upgrades on Izamu or whoever?

I've always found it difficult to use TW properly as I mostly use him just for his upgrade swap and protection with 1 AP left to do whatever I want. Yan Lo doesn't make this any easier as it's so easy to go over 3 upgrades and I can only use the upgrade swapping on 1-2 models which may or may not even need it.

1 hour ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

I'm bringing Rougarou any time I need to move people around or any time I can move 2-3 models as a unit and not sacrifice my scoring ability.  Given that we're Neverborn, that's about 90% of the time.  There are very few pools where "Move people where I want them" is not a path to victory.

I find it *really* hard not to put the 15 point Tooth + Rougarou package in almost every crew.  The amount of devastation those 15 points can dole out is crazy, especially given how tough Tooth is.  

If you haven't done the math, assuming all successful duels:

Tooth uses a 0 challenge to lure an opponent.  Rougarou gets a pounce.  Tooth gets an attack and pushes the opponent .25".  Rougarou gets an attack.

Tooth uses 1 AP to attack, pushes opponent .25".  Rougarou gets an attack.

Tooth uses 1 AP to attack, pushes opponent .25".  Rougarou gets an attack.

Opponent has to flip to avoid slow on activation.  

So 2 AP from Tooth gets you 7 attacks and a slow flip.  And Tooth has 2" melee (right?) armor +1 and hard to kill.

<3.

I learned this the hard way with a generic Conflux Emissary behind those guys. All those attacks on + flips really killed me there

I'm actually excited for the new upgrade as it allows Yan Lo to properly become a backline caster mage. Using Follow Their Footsteps does become essential in making sure you manage to get enough Chi by turn 3.

My preferred upgrades with Yan Lo would become Follow Their Footsteps, Awakening and then Misdirection/Reliquary depending on the playstyle I'll be assuming for that game. FTF gives you a lot more chi than you can actually imagine as you'll be getting a free chi every round starting from Turn 2. You'll need 7 Chi in total for the upgrade you can use as a backline caster and you'll be getting 3 for free from that upgrade. Thanks to FTF you can also swap out the 4ss upgrade for the 3ss upgrade and completely change playstyle. I can already imagine some Turn 5 funsies with getting the free AP, swapping to 3ss upgrade and using 3 ml attacks and 1 ca attack.

Extra upgrades also mean more Fast Emissary, which is also nice.

All-in-all I'm excited to see how his upgrades will affect him. I'll be sure to read up on the Obsidian Statue as well as it seems to be a nice combo for him.

What kind of playstyle are you looking for? Shenlong and Brewmaster are fairly different and McCabe leans more to Shenlong while Yan Lo is rather unique.

I don't have McCabe, so it's hard to speak for him. He lives on passing upgrades to his crew and buffing them up, kind of how Shenlong can give everyone free focus or defensive.

Yan Lo lives and dies by his Chi levels which he gets from models dying and hitting severe damage on his main attack. He can then use that Chi to purchase special Ascendant upgrades which make him tankier and give him an aoe melee attack. Once he gets enough Chi, he plays more like the tanky, tarpitting Brewmaster.

Currently your models don't really include a big beatstick such as Izamu. Your threat is mainly coming from your master, which is severely lacking. Your opponent can just play around you while the rest of your models can't really put out the hurt. I don't know if he works with McCabe as I don't have McCabe, but he's pretty much an auto-include for Yan Lo if you take his Reliquary upgrade. It allows Yan Lo to resummon a killed Ancestor model such as Izamu, Yin, ...

If competitiveness is a factor in your decision making, I would most certainly go for McCabe. Yan Lo is currently considered a B-tier master at best, but that might change with the new upgrades he's getting in the new book. Then again McCabe still remains on top tier together with Shenlong and Asami.

Yan Lo also has a topic in the Rezzers forum, so be sure to check that out if you're planning on buying him.

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Because the Yokai isn't going to dissapear at the end of the turn unless you use up their flicker. Also Heavenly Design is only 10", and considering you can summon models 6" away, the movement needed to get at the edge of Heavenly Design's aura isn't all that big. If you want to summon an actual scheme runner for future turns then yeah the Yokai would be better because they're going to be more mobile with the 3" place at the end of the turn.

As for the Kamaitachi, it's a totem, they're generally only going to fill a niche. Obsidian Oni can still do other things, and if you have 2 of them then 1 can set up burning for the other, it's just their main use in an Asami crew is dropping scrap markers so that if you summon a Jorogumo or Yokai they're going to stick around longer or get more use out of it's triggers as far as the Yokai is concerned.

Don't forget a Yokai can come in on 1 Flicker when summoned. The wording on the card is "may choose to gain Flicker + 1" which means you are not forced to take it. Then again, his 0 can drop his Flicker down by 1 without any problems as again the wording on the card is "may take a (1) Interact Action" so you can use this even on the turn you summon it.

Yes, Heavenly Design is 10" and a summoned Yokai can potentially move 10" away from her (charge + 0 action) and be out of range, but you're not doing that. The 0 let's you place the Yokai out of combat, which is a luxury the Tengu doesn't have. Sometimes you can't summon the model where you want it to be and having that 3" extra place can make a world of difference, especially since summoned models come in with Slow.

Perhaps it is best to agree to disagree as I see no benefit to actually summoning the Tengu compared to the Yokai, except for the lower card requirement and the Tengu (0) action for some last-minute scheme denying.

17 minutes ago, Sir trollolas said:

Hi everyone, 2 newbie questions 😁
What are you going to summon with asami usually? 
I was thinking that the best models to summon evertime is yokai.. Am i correct?

if you are going to summon something else How can you "bypass" the flicker 1 condition? 
And is amanjaku that bad? I like him and can help giving flicker +1.. Why is kamaiatchi always picked rather then him?

Myself and a lot of others like taking the Terracotta Warrior. His upgrade swap action triggers both aura's of Kamaitachi, giving a card draw, 3" push and heal to the targetted model. This is rather potent.

Yokai are pretty much 99.99% of what I summon with Asami. I went with Jorogumo once due to having a marker being close and getting him on Flicker +2.

The Flicker 1 condition is bypassed by summoning your models close to Corpse and/or Scrap markers. Later in the game this is usually easier than early in the game due to the amount of killing going on. The Obsidian Oni has a built-in scrap marker drop trigger, which can get your engine on it going.

Amanjaku's +1 Flicker requires a 9, which is on the rather high-end of cards. For that same card Asami can summon a Yokai. With the current upgrades there is almost no point in using him. The new upgrades however might change that. Asami gets her own Flicker which she can hand out and he can keep your master in the game if you go crazy with it early on. This is some speculation though as I haven't seen the upgrades myself (RIP Europe not getting the nice things as fast).

24 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

I mean if you're just trying to summon a model to drop a scheme marker at the end of the turn somewhere within 10 of Asami. Otherwise, yeah, summon Yokai if you can. Also I wouldn't really call Yokai niche units. They can do different things depending on what you need them to do, they're just not the best option for summoning if you want to drop a scheme marker at the end of the turn.

My apologies, I misworded a bit. The "niche" was for the Kamaitachi and Obsidian Oni, not for the Yokai.

I'm still not sure why the Tengu would be better for scheme marker dropping than the Yokai. They cost an 8 instead of a 9, which is the only benefit they have. Tengu are squishier and have no place effect UNLESS there already is a marker in the area. The Yokai can use his 0 to get out of combat if he is summoned in it or engaged by your opponent and be 100% certain to place enough distance between himself and an opposing model for the scheme marker to be valid.

Maybe I'm missing something of value with the Tengu? I used to run a Tengu with Yan Lo, which I used to hop away all the time with Shooting Star. Besides that he's just inferior in every single way imo.

11 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Yokai: use them pretty much as you said. Torpedoes that you summon and shoot them off, or run them somewhere that you want a scheme marker the next turn that's outside of Asami's aura and you don't/can't move her to get them in it. If you just want to summon a scheme marker somewhere Tengu are the better option .

Kamitachi is just a card and heal bot for me, if I even take it. Asami doesn't really need a totem.

Obsidian Oni. You use then to drop scrap markers off of enemies. That's pretty much their main use for Asami. Everything else is just extra, and you shouldn't really be summoning them.

So basicly I've not been wrong in how I'm using them. They just have very little use outside of the little niche they are trying to fill?

I'm curious as to why Tengu are the better option. They start with only 1 Flicker, but Yokai have far superior mobility if there's not a scheme marker in place for the Tengu to teleport to. I know Tengu needs an 8 instead of a 9, but many games I don't have an 8 in hand anyway. At least the Yokai can still threaten with offence which a Tengu can't really do.

Trying my hand again with Asami and these models are bound to come up. I've been having some difficulty with using them to their fullest, which is why I've come to you guys asking for information.

First off is the Yokai.

I've been using this guy almost exclusively as either a torpedo, a body blocker, a Bettari movement summon or a scheme marker for when he flickers out. The thing that bothers me though is that I can't seem to get any value out of his 0 action. In theory it sounds pretty great, drop a Flicker for a free interact action and a 3" place. The thing that bothers me is that they never lasted long enough to even be used for the 0 as you need 3 summoned Flicker to be even able to use it. 1 For the end of the summon turn, 1 to lower with the 0 action and 1 to actually survive so you can do the interact action.

I've been thinking about using it as setup for Dig Their Graves together with Asami's A Heavenly Design, but that's about where it ends for me. My main problem with using it always remains to be that it gets summoned in with 2 Flicker, which renders it impossible to be used

So my question is: how are you guys able to put his 0 to good use?

Second model is the Kamaitachi.

His 6" aura's are amazing, especially when paired together with the Terracotta Warrior. Getting a free card draw every single turn is great for every crew. The problem is that I don't really know what to do after that. His 0 can work as extra setup for scheme marker drops from the Yokai, but my Asami lists tend to be rather low on actual minions. Dropping a card for burning can work, but I need the cards too much to really be able to afford to drop them for "just" a burning. I understand it combo's well with the Obsidian Oni, but that's the next model I have questions about.

So really, what do you do with the Kamaitachi besides positioning it for maximum aura potency?

Third and last model is the Obsidian Oni.

I've never even summoned this guy as Flicker remains to be hard to find and the Yokai are good enough that I never felt I could use him. To really be able to use him, the enemy needs to have burning on it. That's usually only in the second turn he's been summoned, so you can give them a club to the face, trigger the burning and go for a neutral flip on his other attack. Being able to cheat in 5 damage can be great, but it's also rather resource intensive. You first have to hit the opponent with the club with the correct trigger (gonna have to cheat that probably), then win the second duel as well to only then be able to use a high card to cheat the damage if you get some bad luck and not get at least moderate on a neutral flip. You can drop a low card with the Kamaitachi, but then you expose a rather squishy model which can get some priority from your opponent.

How are you using the Obsidian Oni? Is it pretty much the combo I described above, is it a bit like scheme marker dropper like Yokai or is it something else?

Hopefully you guys can show me the light on what I'm missing with these models and elevate my gameplay to the next level!

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Let us know how your game goes @whodares and what you think you would have changed in hindsight.

I'll try to keep a log. Might even try and keep enough details to make a battle report so you can all laugh at my inexplicably bad game plan and choices

On another note, it would be great if everyone stopped attacking eachother. I understand the points people were making. I'm guessing it was just worded a bit poorly which gave it an unintended meaning. I value the feedback everyone has given in this thread and it would be great if we could keep the forum a positive experience

I'm mostly playing friendly games, but I do feel like playing some "real" setups that can be tournament-worthy. Not everything I run is 100% perfect, but that is because I choose to try out different combinations. I come from Ten Thunders where you either run Sensei Yu or the Emissary if you want to have a list that is at least competitive. Not bringing either of those 2 means you're playing a list for fun and not to practice for tournaments.

I don't really get that "must-have" feeling with Doppleganger that has been described. I agree she's a wonderful and powerful model, but not a 100% auto-take as @ConfuciuSay is advocating it to be. She can be strong in a lot of crews, but dropping a high card to win initiative in a Summoning Dreamer crew is not that easy of a choice as compared to some other masters. She's a great model for schemes, but is she really that much better at it than say ... a Silurid with his Leap? Depends on what scheme you are talking about, but for the most part the Silurid will be a whole lot better.

For me the whole gimmick that Doppleganger brings is too card-intensive to really use frequently. If you cheat in too low, your opponent has a decent chance of stoning and beating your cheat, leaving you down a card and lost initiative. Cheat high and you just sacrificed a high card in an already card-hungry crew. Good for a clutch save of a model, but too dependant on too many factors to really be predictable.

Even if I don't bring Doppleganger this game, I will try her out in one of my following games. The choices to make in Neverborn are so much harder than in Ten Thunders when it comes to selecting models. No easy staples such as Yu/Emissary/Brother here it seems.

Thanks for the advice guys.

I've decided to follow @santaclaws01 and dropped my doppleganger for upgrades on Widow Weaver, Teddy and Coppelius.

I'm still in doubt about @ConfuciuSay and dropping Aether Connection for Wings of Darkness. That's something I'll have to think about for a little bit longer. I came from Ten Thunders which have so many melee masters, so I might still have a wrong impulse here.

Something I'm still doubting right now is whether or not to drop my Coppelius for something like Doppleganger, as I do understand how powerful winning initiative can be. Seeing as I can just summoner Coppelius first turn, it does bring some form of doubt on whether or not to hire him or just summon him. If I do decide to replace him, I still have 3 stones left for something like an Alp to get that last cheap activation with a really good slow aura for Extraction. I won't be able to take an upgrade on the Doppleganger then though, which does make her a fair bit more vulnerable.

Much to think about still, but I'm really happy with all the great insight everyone here has given me so far!

1 hour ago, Luca 2.0 said:

Why are you using daydreams in  a summoning dreamer list? For the push? You don't need, you got the dreamer or you can just summon one if you want something that can push.

If you want them for the mask that they give to you, you are wasting 6 stone for receving 3 stone back! i know they also give -1 WP but it's situational and i remember you that you can still summon them! i Don't like so much coppellius for his stone cost. You can score just summoning on the first turn insidious madness .  You can just summon 2 insidious or just one it depends by you. then you can move them on first turn, second turn they may just score, " 6 inches away from dreamer,7 inches first move plus 7 inches on second turn  and a marker =21 inches considering also the base of the model". removing coppellius and the 3 daydreams give to you 14 points for some incisive model like lelu lilitu. so you can just summon your scheme runner making pression on the center of the board and maybe you can remove aether connection using some upgrade and focus to hold the center line!

I'm already running a rather elite list, struggling to get to even 8 activations. Getting 3 activations for 6 stones is a really good deal for me then.

I'll probably turn them into masks, but the push should not be underestimated. Extra mobility, get out of engagement (for a 5), save movement AP on the other model is really good for only 2 stones.

You can summon them, but then you're using master AP that can be better spent the first turns to get your engine rolling. Would you rather summon a daydream or Lelu/Lilitu/Insidious/...

Placing them next to Dreamer for his defense trigger means you won't lose much even if the opponent gets a lucky red joker on the damage flip.

Coppelius with Dreaming Wings has 8 Flight movement which is incredible. Give him a single push from a daydream and he can move extremely far while keeping some options open.

You talk about taking away Daydreams and Coppelius for Lelu/Lilitu but you just spent so long talking about summoning things that you don't mention you can just summon Lelu and Lilitu as well! Not to mention they are extremely easy to get back to max wounds as well due to healing share, built-in regeneration and Lelu's Vampiric Bite.

I'm just not sure where you are going with your line of thought, but perhaps our playstyles are too different. I would NEVER start summoning Dreamer without at least 2 Daydreams due to cheap activations and extra value as I mentioned above.

23 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why would you not take 1k faces? All of the neverborn general upgrades are situational, and in the case of 2ss upgrades unless you're actually at your masters cache then that would have been a stone you would have spent on the upgrade anyways. This way there's a potential net +1ss from not taking it after you see the crews and realize you don't need it.

Mimics blessing, especially against guild, gives her protections because you wont always want to activate her first, it also puts less pressure on winning initiative because she'll be fairly well protected from the opponent's first activation.

I misjudged, I thought more of the general upgrades were 2 stones, but that is not the case. Still not used to being able to swap like that so I'll try it out.

Also thanks for mentioning the potential +1 stone.

Still not convinced about Mimic's Blessing, but I'll try it out. Maybe it clicks for me when I see it being used in a game.

11 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

What other schemes would you really need? Show of force and Extraction both send models to the middle, Dig their Graves and Tail'em mean models are going to be close together as well. The only scheme sending people out will be Leave Your Mark, which Coppelius can very easily stop, especially if he has Dreaming Wings.

As for upgrades 1k faces on both, and mimics blessing on WW. If you want to make Coppelius a fast scheme runner/hunter, then put dreaming wings on him.

Convince me on 1k faces. So far I haven't found any real benefit from taking it. Sure, you can swap out for any upgrade during the game, but you better make sure not to pick a 2ss upgrade or you'll lose stones. Stones your master or henchman really need in order to get stuff done.

Mimic's blessing also seems rather counter-productive as you'll be wanting to activate Widow Weaver rather early in the turn to get the web marker out or am I seeing that wrong? With all the WP duels we have, getting that marker of -1wp out early in the turn can be devastating.