whodares

53 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Actually, they specifically included language to make sure you couldn't score VP off of a scheme marker for two different schemes - it was added to several schemes to avoid just that problem. Again, between the upgrade card for Asami with clarification and the fact that there is no End of Turn sequence spelled out, it is pretty clear. 

If you are going to go by your interpretation then Asami could get up to 3 free summons a turn. Why else would they have included that clarification on the upgrade card if that was the case? They included it to make it abundantly clear that she only gets one summon max as all VP is scored simultaneously at the end of the Turn. It may not have been the best place to put that clarification, but I think that was the first ability that was worded that way. 

If you are using the sequence from the Winning the Encounter (and it specifically says you do those steps after the End of the game) for each end of turn, then why do you stop? The last part of that sequence is to check who has won and the game is over then. 

1 hour ago, Khyodee said:

I'm basing my debate off of the end of game scoring and how any marker removal scoring happens. As per the rules:

Step 4. Players calculate VP earned for one chosen Scheme and add them to the Crew's total VP.
Step 5. Players remove any Scheme markers that they chose to use to Score VP with the Scheme in Step 4.
Step 6. Players calculate VP earned from the remaining Scheme and add them to the Crew total VP.

Why would turn by turn be any different? If it did then you also could score multiple schemes off the same markers which you clearly can not do to how you score schemes. I could be wrong sure, but if even if I am there is no direct rules that explain end of turn scoring specifically and so this end of game explanation makes it very confusing since its the only thing we have to base end of turn scoring off of.

Devil's advocate here: we might have been misinterpreting Asami's upgrade card.

The exact text is: "Note that VP earned at the end of a Turn are earned by both Crews simuntaneously."

If we follow @Khyodee's steps pattern, it just means that each individual step is earned at thesame time and that Asami should get her 3 summons.

Probably overthinking it, but nowhere does Asami's card say that ALL VP are earned simultaneously. It just said that for VP earned so you can't let your opponent calculate VP first and then base your summon off of that.

22 minutes ago, Piccio said:

-snip-

Did you take the TCW as well? You mention not being scared of Huggy dying before Turn 3, so you took a TCW for Turn 4 onwards?

The upgrade is indeed a really good 1ss value, but I'll never feel safe without being able to go for The Rising Sun in case of need.

1 hour ago, Sharp_GT said:

hmm, I could see the value in using the gorar to play distraction for your more aggressive minions, maybe a little bit of mindgames if your opponent's crew only has a litle bit of efficient killing power.

Or if the map favors Gorar and you can hide him behind a building. That way your opponent doesn't have much of a choice and killing a Tooth or Rougarou takes up quite a chunk of AP. Either way you win because your priority minions stay alive longer.

I really don't get why people hate Gorar so much as I've always seen him as a solid choice thanks to the synergy that Tooth/Rougarou has with Titania. Yes, he can be completely useless. As mentioned before, if he's useless, he's probably doing something right for you

On 16-10-2017 at 3:34 PM, Obeisance said:

Single faction
2x 50ss fixed lists

Game 1
Deployment: Standard
Strategy: Recconnoiter
Schemes: Claim Jump, Accusation, Frame for Murder, Hidden Trap, Undercover Entourage

So I could build two Dreamer lists; a brawly one and a summoning one. How does Neverborn do schemes, anyway?

Tried my hand at a summoning Dreamer here because he shines here. The reason for this is due to outactivating your opponent and Reconnoiter is heavily skewed towards summoners.

I would take something like:

Dreamer  (6 soulstones)

• Dreams of Pain
• Otherworldly
• On Wings of Darkness

Daydream x3

Widow Weaver

• A Thousand faces
• Handbag

Teddy

• A Thousand Faces

Mysterious Emissary

• Conflux of Nightmares

My reasoning is rather simple. You start with 7 activations and all the schemes allow you to stay in the back of the map. Going forward is not encouraged at all! You barely have to move Dreamer, so he can spend all his AP on summoning on Turn 1. I suggest getting Lelu and Lilitu out. You'll probably sacrifice a Daydream for that, so you'll go up to 8 activations. If you decide to spend your third AP on resummoning the lost Daydream, you'll be on 9 AP.

The Emissary can also summon a changeling on a scheme marker, so you might want to do that too if the cards allow it. You can go up to 10 activations like this. He can also place down Hazardous Terrain, which is again bad news for your opponent as you will have Lilitu with a ca7 lure. 1/4/5 damage is no joke and can do major damage while giving a ton of zone control.

This is not risky at all unless the opponent has a crazy alpha strike lined up for you. You'll have to see that for yourself.

The Widow Weaver has Handbag in case you get a lot of corpse and scrap on the board so you can summon a second Teddy in. You can drop Handbag and replace it with another upgrade if you don't like it. It can be great, but it can also be worthless.

The 3 Dayrdreams are vital for a summoning Dreamer as they provide cheap activations while giving the push and you ABSOLUTELY NEED that sacrifice for a mask.

Now for the scheme selection.

You can do any scheme rather easily except for Undercover Entourage because you outactivative your opponent rather fast. FFM can work if he has a killing Henchman, but I think Accusation and Claim Jump will be better for you.

Placing scheme markers near the centerline is rather safe for you as you outactivate and can just wait with a significant model until your opponent can't do anything against it. You'll have a massive advantage due to being able to commit your entire force, while your opponent can't. He'll have to keep at least 2 models on his own parts or else he won't score for the Strategy, while you can just keep summoning in reinforcements.

If you summon 2 Insidious Madnesses on Turn 2, you'll be in a prime position for pretty much any scheme marker shenanigans starting from Turn 3. They have a pretty decent walk and a shot, so they can even threaten the models your opponent is keeping in the back.

Lelu and Lilitu are a killer combination if you can pair them up with the Emissary's Hazardous terrain and they can be rather annoying to take down due to shared healing, regen and Lelu's Vampiric Bite. If you had the money though, I'd have rather put in The Tooth and Rougarou though. That would mean you would have had a deathball already hired and on the flank while the summoned Lelu and Lilitu can be used to keep The Dreamer safe and add additional pressure to your opponent.

TL;DR The opponent has to come to you to deny schemes or score points, while you can stay in the back thanks to the 18" lure Lilitu gives you. I made a budget killer list to abuse the fact that he has to come to you.

Please provide feedback on what you think of this list and how you would change/improve it.

1 hour ago, qoob said:

Have you played Huggy more defensive? Or hunting more on the outside? 

I actually did that in my last game, but he just becomes a bigger magnet to kill. Your opponent will try to get the jump on you, even if it's a suboptimal play for himself. Killing Huggy permanently is a huge drop in power for Lynch for any upgrade he's rocking. CB is the least affected ofcourse, but it still loses around 50% value.

The downside to playing a safer Huggy is a more exposed Lynch. I took 3 stones this game and had to burn all 3 of them to keep Lynch alive. This also meant I couldn't swap back to The Rising Sun as I didn't have the stone difference anymore. You should always keep that in mind as well!

Does the Red Joker count as a mask when it comes to revealing masks for the effect of Cheating Bastard?

We've been playing it as not counting due to it not being an actual mask, but I'd like to be certain before I head off into a tourney with it.

My reasoning for not counting is that the Red Joker only counts as any suit when you actually play it. While it's sitting in your hand, it's not being played.

I've played a game against Zoraida with Cheating Bastard and a Terracotta Warrior. I got 3 amazing hands to boot (3x Red Joker) in the first 3 Turns, which meant cheating against me was incredibly hard. My plan was to swap CB out for The Rising Sun around Turn 3, but I just demolished my opponent before that happened due to amazing hands, some misplays from my opponent and some amazing luck.

I'm thinking of combining CB with Mr. Tannen as that is just a completely nasty combo to do. Having to discard a card to cheat blind is an even greater discouragement and fairly extreme hand pressure.

The main downside to playing with CB is that you're forced into taking a TCW in order to keep Huggy and the minions alive in case of need. You'll also need to bring some extra stones just to keep Huggy safe in case you misplayed or the opponent manages to suprise you and get the jump on Huggy. Losing Huggy is extremely painful as you have an entire flank that you can't use CB on anymore.

The main upside is that you get the benefits from CB and schemes like Hidden Trap, Dig Their Graves, ... become a lot easier. I activated my Lynch early on Turn 2 and 3 in order to blast Zoraida away, while keeping Lynch alive with stones and CB. Don't forget that CB makes it very annoying to attack Lynch as you have to cheat first AND take damage when you cheat against Lynch. Unless your opponent is sure he can make the attack go through, he will most likely not cheat the attack.

I'll be testing it some more as I liked it. What I didn't like is that the TCW feels like such dead weight in comparison to the Ten Thunders Brother. My TCW didn't to anything besides using his 1 action to try and protect stuff and walk. He managed to net me 2 VP thanks to Guard The Stash (1 Wound FTW GOGO Armor!!), but a Brother could have also done Claim Jump together with that, while making better use of the aces Lynch has.

My next game will be testing out Tannen, Graves, TCW and CB and hope it somehow manages to be viable

52 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

Hidden trap requires 3 schemes near an enemy.

So I could build two Dreamer lists; a brawly one and a summoning one. How does Neverborn do schemes, anyway?

Just going to react on this on the top of my head. I'll look at some lists later to give you some guidelines. I'll make a seperate reply for it, unless this reply is still the last in the thread.

1. Hidden trap requires a scheme marker near an enemy unit. It does not specify that you need a different scheme marker for every enemy unit. Best case scenario would be 3 units next to 1 marker. I think you mixed it up a bit in how you read the description, unless Crewfaux made a mistake in the app which I'm using right now.

2. Could you list the models you have in your possession right now? Your first post mentions a shopping list, so I'm trying to cut costs a bit. If this is your first exploration of the Neverborn faction, summoning Dreamer might be a bit expensive to go for. When I bought my Dreamer, I paid around €150 to get the crew I wanted and most of his summoning options.

3. If you don't have any models yet or want to buy some good additional models, it would be great if you could let me know what direction you're taking your Neverborn. I have experience with several masters, but not all of them. I'll keep your future direction in mind when selecting additional models for puchase if you so choose.

35 minutes ago, Lyros said:

Yeah playing since first with nvb, winning my fair share at tournament, top 3 in my national ranking ... guess i dont really know anything about this game. 

Puke Snake isnt much more resistent then daydreams and you dont habe to kill him to deny most scemes. Standing nearby will do the job. He isnt bad at all, put he isnt worth it for 1-2 turns. 

I am out here. Play the Worm all day long as you wish, Good luck with it

Has 9 posts, has been playing for several years and claims winning tourneys and being top 3 on national ranking of ... ??? Let me just get a bag of salt with that grain of salt I already have.

I never claimed Pukey is more resilient than daydreams. He's a mobile scheme walker, so he shouldn't be getting in a killable position to begin with. Daydreams on the other hand aren't worth anything for this crew unless they can use their -wp aura, you somehow need 3-4 pushes that turn or you are desperate for activation control.

Not worth it for 1-2 turns? This forum has more than enough people that would disagree with you on that. 2 turns alone equals 1 stone of value, so you'd have an even better deal on him. Dreamer is also in a special position as he can summon his own totems. There's not too many masters that can do that. You can even argue that it would be better to do with Beater Dreamer as you can summon them right where they need to be and still get waking up. Meanwhile Pukey has been giving you Rush of Magic and a possible VP. But yeah, not worth it, right? ...

Standing nearby will deny his scheme marker stuff? Any reason why you can't just ... idk ... walk with the model? Assuming you didn't screw up your activation order ofcourse, but a TOP 3 NATIONAL PLAYER should be able to at least do that.

46 minutes ago, Adran said:

Depending on how you're doing it, Beater Dreamer can need masks. You want to get Chompy out, and summoning is the easiest way to get waking. You won't always need it. (and if you get day dreams you kill the magic anyway)

Masks summon Alps, so that's only needed if you've hit the Daydream cap or want to summon an Alp specifically. I know they have their uses, but in general Beater Dreamer doesn't really need the Alps.

47 minutes ago, Adran said:

Yes Pushes can score you VP. A late turn quarter switch or push into turf war area can be the difference. Is that a more certain VP than a scheme marker? its hard to say. It has the potential to change VP more, but also other uses. 

I agree with you here. It's hard to tell the difference. I come from Ten Thunders, who are renowned for their pushing prowess. I switched to Neverborn because pushing is very situational and I find it a whole lot more situational worth than PM who is pretty much always worth it.

49 minutes ago, Adran said:

The Magic is a serious consideration.though. It does force the crew into a more fixed playstyle. But saying that they can remove a scheme marker, but they can't kill primordial magic is fairly false. It does rely on duels but if something can reach a scheme marker and remove it, they have a fairly strong chance of killing the Magic in the same number of actions. (also I don't think you can use a puke worm to score dig their graves. He is only a Scheme marker when you want to score VP, at the time you kill the model you aren't scoring VP, so he isn't a scheme marker. But thats about the only time he can't count) 

I support your way of looking at PM and DtG, but there have been voices that do allow PM to count for that. Depends on your local judge I guess?

Removing PM is also fairly easy, but it's harder to deny PM to count as the scheme marker than placing one of the floor. You can only remove PM by killing, burying, ... while there are plenty of actions that can remove scheme markers without an opposing duel. That was more the point I was trying to make, but I didn't explain it enough it seems.

10 hours ago, Lyros said:

Primordial Magic isn't bad, but a summoned insidious madness gets 1 sceme marker down in turn Two just as reliable (even further, pukesnake isnt even able to reach the centerline in Standard or Corners...). All the while you miss out on ~2 4" pushs and an additional Mask if you need One every round

You can't summon Madness if you're playing Beater Dreamer. Keep in mind this thread is all about Beater Dreamer.

Does Beater Dreamer require the masks?

Pushes are great, but can they score you VP?

10 hours ago, Lyros said:

Doesnt matters how  much chompy dreamer likes his wp debuffs, my argument is: when you hire widow weaver mainly for her wp shenanigans, then turn it up to eleven, use your awesome daydreams too and don't waste 2ss for basically just 2 draw-discard effects and a mediocre sceme marker (which can be laid by almost everyone just as  good)

Daydreams are extremely squishy. If something even just looks at them, they pretty much die. In order to get their -wp debuff, they have to be close to the opponent. They won't last long like that.

Calling puke snake a waste of 2 stones for 2 draw-discard and a free scheme marker makes me wonder how good your understanding of the game actually is. The 2 draw/discard is worth a stone already and the scheme marker can get you a VP is used correctly. It's also harder to stop PM from getting that VP as he doesn't need to use an action to place down the marker. You can just double walk somewhere and count him IF YOU NEED TO. Another model might do a walk and drop a marker and then the opponent runs away (Dig Their Graves) or removes the marker somehow and you just wasted an action. Good old Pukey makes sure that something like that doesn't happen.

9 hours ago, Lyros said:

Don't overlook Lelus Zero Upgrade gives him a free Card Cycle (and BB dmg). I tend to often hire him for that alone when playing dreamer.

Adding Widow weaver for her WP debuff while Kicking all daydreams (4" -1ep bubble) for pukesnake doesnt Sound that good for me

Puke Snake is really solid even if you only keep it 1-2 turns. It can help you get any scheme marker scheme while providing card cycle. Once you used it, you can then summon daydreams with Dreamer in case of need. Don't forget that also gives Waking, so it could be a safer route to get that last Waking you need to summon Chompy.

Beater Dreamer is less reliant on the -wp as he's not summoning in models that abuse it and he can always summon them in. As far as I know he doesn't need the mask either, so their main benefit would be free activations. While those are also strong, the card cycle from Pukey combined with the scheme marker stuff net it a slight win.

Do note that my own list looks rather different than what is described in this topic as I'm keeping it close to Dreamer to limit costs for different playstyles.

9 hours ago, MrBrasidas045 said:

I will agree with you Whodares but in this specific list, what will you remove to add Widow Weaver ?

2 hours ago, (Keenan) said:

Not Whodares, obviously, but I'd look at removing Lelu and Stitched.  If you're trying to fit in Weaver you're looking at abusing WP.  And you've got beaters and damage dealers in spades. Er, Crows.  I've never once had Lelu do anything useful so I'm biased.  Stitched has been hit and miss, and often is just the best option to summon or to hire for the cost, so I try to make it work.  I've also really like using Primordial Magic to start and summoning Daydreams lately after getting a VP off Primordial for whatever strategy is there, obviously situational, but rush of magic is pretty legit.  Just my experience with casual games in a limited number so take it for what it is.  But if you're looking at jumping into Neverborn I'd look at getting the PM.  And definitely doppel.  Never leave home without it.

Pretty hard question tbh, because you usually tailor lists depending on the strat and schemes. But on we go!

I'm following @(Keenan) and removing the Stitched Together. There are lists that can abuse it, but your name is not Lynch and that's quite a bit deal for these guys! 6 stones for this guy doesn't feel good when you already have a card-hungry crew, which means you'll have to throw high cards away or focus to get stuff done. Even then he can still hit himself and cause damage to your crew if he's in the middle of your own crew. Not recommended in this crew, unless you have some hidden strategy I can't see.

I'd also follow you on removing the Daydreams and getting the Primordial Magic. Daydreams are less important for the bruiser-styled Dreamer and getting Rush of Magic means you can cycle a bad card out of your deck, which means you have some sort of card advantage right out of the box!

This means you already have the 8 stones you need for the Weaver, so you can take some upgrades on your other models. Giving Teddy A Thousand faces can be really good so he can be anti-armor in case of need (Retribution's Eye), heal more (Malifaux Provides) or get more annoying to hit (The Mimics Blessing) which is great. you can also take Fears Given Form (start with A Thousand Faces) on the Widow Weaver and combine her up with Teddy on a flank. Not recommended, but viable and a layer of protection for the Weaver.

Why not viable? You already have Lelu and Lilitu together to hold a flank for you. Lelu gets +1 defense thanks to gis upgrade, which makes him finally worth a hire slot IF you combine him with Lilitu. Getting a 4" pounce on Lelu/Lilitu or getting + flips on all duels for both is very strong. Getting low on wounds? Lelu's Vampiric Bite can heal both models up really fast. Need tankiness? Lilitu's + flips on everything on def 6 WILL make your opponent cheat cards to get through.

Let me note that there are better options for a crew than any of the models you have mentioned here, but they have a lot less synergy with The Dreamer's other playstyles. I'm valuaing Dreamer synergy high for the OP s this is his first Neverborn list and some optimal options require buying a second crew box (Titania for her Knights is a supremely good choice).

An example would be to replace Lelu and Lilitu with the Tooth and Rougarou combo, which is a whole lot stronger. It does require the Titania box and Rougarou, while not having any possible buffs from Dreamer. No fast/heals/push/whatever which can come in clutch.

Another example would be the Obsidian Madness. Most of the time a Gupp can do what is needed from the Obsidian Madness, which is scheme running.

I'm also a fan of Nekima and try to find a spot for her in a lot of my lists, but there are reasons why you shouldn't get her this fast in Neverborn.

This is what I would change given that it's OP's first Neverborn list and I'm trying to max his Dreamer Synergy in case he decides to go for other styles such as Summoning or Shooting Dreamer later on.

1 hour ago, le_sphinx said:

The decision about purchasing Mysterious Emissary is brain problem for me now! I am trying to control myself in buying new models, cause there are some of them that didn't see gaming table yet. Also it almost compulsury to get changellings with our emissary - another purchase! So I need to be sure that Mysterious Emissary is a pretty strong and useful addition to my "warband".

I have Dreamer as my main master, Pandora, Lynch with almost all models that these masters need. Do all of these masters can use NB emissary really successful? I am sure that emissary shines in Pandora lists. However, I don't know how he synergises with other two masters. Sorry for being little bit off topic!

Maybe it is better to take just Johan for conditions removal and be ready for gg18?

 

This is my personal experience, which is not really that much with NB yet.

My own masters are Dreamer, Collodi and Lynch. Depending on the list, the Emissary can be really good. I don't run such a Collodi list, but Dreamer just got a new option with Growing Up. Now you can run upto an enemy, hit him and turn into Chompy, then place all enemies with X radius (not sure how much, think 6) in base contact with Chompy and then CHAIN ACTIVATE into Chompy to unleash havoc on your enemies. I feel like this can work really well.

Lynch's upgrade is solid, but I feel like the Emissary doesn't really fit in with him. In Neverborn I run him without the Emissary, in 10 Thunders pretty much always with the Shadow Emissary due to it having a much better synergy. Shadow Emissary can discard a card to get 2 focus at the start of his activation. Dump ace, move and place your ++ attack. The upgrade gives the Emissary + on Brillianced model which is great if you play that kind of list. The real power is in the 0 which gives a push and on trigger lets you draw a card.

I've played against Zoraida and Titania (generic Conflux) and let me tell you the Emissary was probably the mvp in those games.

Zoraida gets a LoS rangeless Obey on you if the Emissary hits you. Just let that sink in.

Titania always used Tooth + Rougarou combo and turned it up to 11 with the + flip on every single attack. If you were scared of that combo before, you'll be running away now.

58 minutes ago, esqulax said:

Can't really tell you whether or not the list is good without knowing the schemes and strats. Same goes for summoning dreamer vs chompy dreamer. If the strat is Interference, then I would definitely need to hear some very good arguments to be convinced summoning dreamer isn't just better


It looks good for a shopping list though, the only things I would add would be a doppelganger (this is Neverborn after all) and a Widow weaver (I personally really like this gal and particularly with dreamer) 

I'm seconding the Widow Weaver. You're taking Teddy who has TN13 Horror duel. Your opponent probably has 5 wp, so he needs an 8. He's standing on 2 Web Markers, which cut his WP by 2. He now needs a 10 just to be able to attack Teddy. Add in Daydreams or Insidious Madness bullets and he'll be on 0 wp soon enough

I mostly take Widow Weaver just for the webs and the rest is just extra power. That's how high I rate her webs when you have a crew that can abuse WP duels.

2 hours ago, MrDeathTrout said:

FYI - the Alt Wastrel (Miss Ann Thrope) is the November promo.  You'd have to buy a Jury, but its cheaper than the McCabe box. 

 

A friend of mine is getting the Jury already and he's not using Wastrels. I can use them if he's not using them, which is awersome

2 hours ago, MrDeathTrout said:

This is not correct.  Soul Burn says you get the ++ to damage, then you lose 1 Flicker.  Compare that to their Vital Strike trigger were you lose the flicker then take the action.  So they can charge for 1 AP, get + to their two attacks (for charging) then get ++ to damage on each attack.  After the second attack they sacrifice (zero flicker) and may drop a scheme marker (Asami's Heavenly Design upgrade).

I agree Yokai are amazing.

You are indeed correct. I've been playing them wrong the entire time

They were already powerful summons in my gimped version, they'll become even stronger now.

SSJ Yokai! Should have kept 1 seperate to paint it yellow fml

5 hours ago, Dizb said:

Hi there! New player here with some questions,

Asami seems like a very interesting Master but her summons do have a "Flicker" condition where if it runs out, your summoned minions disappear. How do you guys make the best out of your minions before they disappear?

Should I start off an encounter with the Yokai or keep them for summons?

Also, what do you all recommend I should get since I'll be getting An Oni's Wrath?

I'd like to start off by saying that a lot has changed with the newest book Broken Promises and that the "old" way of playing will probably have changed a lot. I'm not well versed in Asami's new upgrade, so I might be wrong here.

First off the Flicker condition works for Asami because she has a summoning style that's more "in the moment". Her summons are not meant to last, they are meant to do damage or tie up models for 1/2 turns while the rest of your crew is free to do as they please.

I never start off with Yokai as they are THE best summons Asami has right now to the point that I summon them probably 99.99% of the time. But why is that? When you summon a Yokai, you may choose to give it an additional Flicker. This means these guys can live into the next Turn if you need them just to tie up certain resources, hold points, ... Their main use however is offensive as you may have noticed from the card. Using 1 Flicker and the built-in mask gives you a double + flip on the damage flip, which is EXTREMELY powerful. The downside is that you can only use this once as your Yokai disappears before his attack finishes if he goes to 0 Flicker due to it.

All this means that I usually summon Yokai, use their 1 AP Charge action with Asami and just try and stick as much damage as possible onto enemy models.

The other great summon Asami has, but is almost never used, is Jorogumo. He requires a 13 to summon, but only starts with 1 Flicker. He has a 50mm base with a 3" Engagement range, which means he can tie up a lot of models if you can summon him in the right spot. He's also built to tank, which reinforces that idea.

The downside to Jorogumo is that he starts with only 1 Flicker and fades out the Turn he was summoned. You really NEED those extra corpse/scrap markers to make him stick. No point in having a tanky model with a huge card investment for just a couple of activations.

Models I can certainly recommend are the Terracotta Warrrior and Yasunori.

Yasunori is an Oni, os he can take a 1 AP Charge if he's within 4" of Asami and he has a HUGE charge range of 10" combined with a melee range of 2". This means you could possibly walk once (6") next to Asami and then charge (10") to engage something within 2". This gives a possible 18" threat range on a model that is probably one of the biggest damage threats we have in our entire faction that isn't a master.

The Terracotta Warrior(TCW) can give a condition to frienly minions and enforcers (Yasunori!!) to take a hit for them if they are within 10" and LoS of the TCW. If he takes damage from that condition, you can discard a card once per Turn to ignore that damage. This means you can let Yasunori live longer, so he becomes an even bigger threat. Using strong minions? Buff them up!

The second use of the TCW allows you to change upgrades on models. Say your master started with an upgrade that you're just not getting value from. TCW can change that! You're in the last turn and you want to change that Equality to Recalled Training for crazy damage? TCW can do that!

I'll be stopping here right now as my post is getting rather long and I want to give you some time to let this sink in already and let other correct me on points I might have wronged

6 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

@whodaresIf you're fine with the 4 SS price tag I don't see why you wouldn't use the Wastrel/Warder. They both get a free  and the Warder even gives you a permanent Disguise for 1 SS extra. The only other viable option is the Clockwork Trap at 2 SS, though you'll miss out on defensive and a corpse to summon off of.

Tengu and Akaname wouldn't drop a corpse marker, Shadow Effigy has Df6, Low River Monks could get a free defensive but it'd cost them a walk so you'll have less positioning options... Why would you even need to swap from Warders/Wastrels/Traps?

Because I don't have any of those?

I'm planning on getting the Charm Warder as soon as it comes out, so I'm not going to buy a McCabe box as I'm focussing more on Neverborn right now and his gimmick doesn't interest me.

What would be a viable alternative for the wastrel/charm warder if I want to try and go for 4 Chi Turn 1?

I was thinking Tengu as they are also only 4 stones with def 4, but they don't get the free defensive.

We also use a decent amount of cover and LoS blocking which makes this a lot harder to run. But my guess that this crew is meant to focus on killing Turn 1-2 and then scoring Turn 3-5 (6/7) seems to be correct then.

The only problem I see with forward scoring schemes is that your crew is standing pretty far in the back unless you sacrifice some killing potential. You can ofcourse sacrifice Collodi's entire activation to go for a triple walk on puppet/minion with My Will, so I'm guessing that's how you start going for things like LYM?

1 hour ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Some people may try to use it this way, but the first purpose of this upgrade that came to my mind was to increase Lynch's survivability (and we want him to survive as long as possible, because we want him to activate last, don't we?) by draining your opponents resources via forcing them to cheat when it is not necessary and generally play poker-like psychological games with them. This is not the defensive ability sensu stricto, like armor or incorporeal, but it proved to be a kind of indirect defense in a game I had recently against Lynch.

Completely agree, but Lynch still isn't a master you want to get in the thick of things. This upgrade can still the opponent, but Lynch still goes down easily to a focussed barrage.

Don't forget that we already had a pokerface cheat upgrade (cheat face down) and this upgrade completely invalidates that one. No point in cheating face down if you always cheat second anyway.

I feel like this was an upgrade to make Lynch make compatible with his crew as the cheating is more like an extra side-effect and the other parts of it are already plenty strong. Brilliance, scheme marker and heal just for REVEALING cards, not even discarding, is something several other masters could only dream of to have as an upgrade. Can you imagine something like this on Yan Lo? Adversary, scheme marker and heal on Ancestors for revealing cards would be insanely powerful and possible push Yan Lo to top-tier as he still has a free upgrade slot left.

I'm agreeing with you that it's a drain and indirect defense, but they already have an upgrade with that purpose which is completely invalidated if they made this upgrade with that in mind. That would seem like a strange design philosophy.

On 13-10-2015 at 5:50 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

I've been running a very fun/successful list of (think I posted in hidden NB forums, but not this open forum so here it is):

• Collodi (Fated, Strum, 5ss)
• Arcane Effigy
• Trapper
• Brutal Effigy
• 3x Changelings
• Doppleganger
• Primordial Magic
• Envy or Mysterious Emissary (Conflux of Music)

It doesn't do well on things like Headhunter but besides that I've had no issue deleting 1-2 models a turn starting on turn 1. Tonight I'm going to try a new list I'm working on for Collodi (not the one above).

I've had a lot of fun using Coryphee's, and tonight I may try 2 instead of 1. I hate line in the sand and I think Collodi may be the first master I may try it with again.

 

I'm wondering how well this list works in gg17 and gg18. There's barely any forward scoring potential in this list.

Most of the schemes require you to move forward and several strats are also around the centerline and this list prefers to stay in the back A LOT. Do you just try to kill as many models as possible Turn 1-2 and then try to count on outactivating your opponent and go for marker schemes or something like that?

Which strat and schemes would you actually run this list with in gg17?

42 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@whodares

I've seen stitched get a lot done. If you can time that heal they could last a long time. But sure, no stitched or maybe one or two then.

Even if you don't have the stitched I don't see how the upgrade makes you not want to go last with Lynch? From what I see it could work just as well going last as going mid turn, probably better sinc you get more chances to get masks into your hand.

You're right, I didn't comment enough on that. My apologies.

The main benefit I see of giving something Brilliance for free is that your other models can use that Brilliance. Most of my activations with Lynch right now are Play for Blood, Final Debt and walk to place myself in position for the next victim. I blow up the models without any problems already. If you don't walk, you can do Play for Blood, Final Debt and another Play for Blood or just shoot at something/place a marker, whatever you want to do.

I feel like this upgrade is trying to push us to spreading Brilliance around in order for our other thematic models to abuse it. You can spread 3 Brilliance in 1 activation, Final Debt something and then drop aces on something else to do a whole lot of damage. Combine this with Gwyneth Maddox who is also spreading Brilliance a lot confirms this for me.

However the downside is that you'll have to activate start/mid Turn in order to really use this. There's no point in spreading a ton of Brilliance if it goes away after that activation. If a model is about to die (stitched together as per your example), you're being forced by the opponent to activate Lynch earlier than you'd want and I don't like being dictated by my opponent.

Don't get me wrong, I can see why you WOULD use it and what benefits it could bring on activating last. If you really want to nuke something, you don't have to possible cheat in a card to give Brilliance, it's automatic. The heal can be nice but as mentioned earlier, you'll probably be forced to activate early if you need it. The scheme markers can be really clutch to get a Leave Your Mark, Claim Jump, Dig Their Graves or any of the other ones that rely on the markers. Activating last for that can possibly win you a game.

The downside however is that you'll have to hold Huggy back and not use him to his full potential. If you do want to go crazy with Huggy, you'll have to bring a TCW and swap when things start to get dicey. This brings the risk of permanently losing Huggy due to unforseen circumstances. I'm also not a big fan of bring TCW with Lynch, but that has more to do with my playstyle and ymmw with that. I prefer a Brother with Lynch pretty much all day any day due to them usually being my MVP in a Lynch match.

If you're like me and you don't like TCW with Lynch, you'll be losing out on missile Huggy, possibly losing Huggy if you get surprised by damage potential of an opposing model AND you'll be using 5 stones for the TCW.

The upgrade you get in return is powerful, don't get me wrong on that. If I want to use it, I'll probably go Turn 1-2 with CB and use TW to swap it out around Turn 3 or when Huggy starts to get targetted. I'll probably play around with it as the rest of you are doing, but I find it hard to justify spending that many stones in something that makes a lot of things harder for you instead of easier.

20 hours ago, Kogan Style said:

I don't think the timing is that difficult. Endless Hunger Huggy does his fast recalled training thing, then has to survive an activation (or 2 if chain activation occurs) then the TCW flips Endless to Rising Sun. Then you have Schrodingers Huggy if you want it. I think late game once the opponent has decided to ignore Huggy you could flip to CB, which makes him a useful scheme runner/flanker which is where he ends up most of the time for me (due to opponents trying to avoid Huggy coupled with the fact Huggy without fast and recalled isn't as dangerous).  

I think first impressions are that CB is strictly worse that the other two upgrades, but that is because CB offers a different playstyle, one that we aren't used to after 4 books worth of Huggy missiles. I think CB will find some good use once we understand how to use it more. 

Once you swap over to the other upgrade, you'll have a "weak" Turn where you have Rising Sun. You can't just swap back because you expect Huggy to die. You're paying 5 stones for that flexibility with the TCW, but I feel he barely has a place in a Lynch crew.

Huggy without Fast and Recalled is plenty dangerous though. He can kill enemy models rather easily and doesn't die fast against ml/sh-based opponents. He has a trigger to heal 2 and another to up his damage track to min 4. If the opponent can just ignore Huggy or if Huggy isn't a threat, I'd say you're playing Huggy wrong.

15 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Why don't you want to activate last when you have this upgrade? All of the effects seem like they would work well for activating last to do a huge final debt to a target you just brillianced automatically as well as scoring by placing markers as late as possible. I've been looking at it as being a great combo.

I'm thinking something like three or four stitched together that hang out in front of Lynch and Huggy so you know exactly what your enemy will cheat before deciding to cheat. You can also do their game of chance and let the opponent cheat before you decide if it's worth winning or just giving the opponent a card and hit your draw trigger with the right ace. When a few of them are down to a single wound you hopefully have three masks to heal them and let them carry on their business with reeactivate.

Lynch doesn't need this upgrade to Final Debt something to death. Placing scheme markers and healing stuff is nice and add to his arsenal.

Taking 3-4 stiched togethers is not something I'm really going for. They are way too card intensive to hold that many AND have other models be able to do something useful. Yes you can cheat Game of Chance second, but to really use that power you needt he ace. Don't have the Ace? that's 4 models with a huge chunk of their power just taken away.

Stitched also hit themselves if they fail and it's not like they are that durable to begin with. Send a beater inthere and watch them crumble