whodares

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

I recently had a discussion in the TTB thread about the odds of opposed flips, and assuming I was correct in my assumptions in that thread (I could be wrong) it showed that the change of Values from equal to a difference of 1 had the greatest affect on the probability of winning the duel (on the initial flip). The difference between 1 better and 2 better was slightly less and so forth. So the advantage you get from going from injured +3 to +4 will be less than the advantage you got from injured +2 to +3.

I had no way of including cards in hand in those odds calculations.

I agree with you that Injured gives less visible power at every stack. The invisible power however becomes that you don't need cards anymore to hit that specific model. When you are guaranteed to succeed without using any resource, besides AP, that action generally becomes an extremely good investment. In that sense I would say stacking Injured does become worth it if you're looking at taking down high priority targets with minimal investment from your side.

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

If you could have activated Dreamer , teddy and Coppelius before the day dream, then your opponent would have been forced to have activated at least 1 of his big hitters before you pushed Chompy into the trap. then Chompy only had to weather 2 of the models, whilst regenerating between the attacks. I think the odds would almost favour Chompy living through that even without using stones (4 attacks doing minimum 2 needing to do 9 damage, with a chance for the extra damage, but also having to pass 4 terrifying tests (Plus Chompy can possibly heal during his activation).

Regarding what is a good plan and what isn't is hard to say without watching the game, or at least seeing the table but since you say going through the center was not a good plan, then it might have been better to keep clear for a turn or 2.

From what you have said the undergrowth  really only works that well when Titania is able to bunch it up (as any other time Butterfly jump is likely to be getting you off of it, and potentially outside the Thorns range) and/or lucky enough to get multiple crows.

I was not going for an alpha strike though. I was setting up for Turn 2.

Your plan also assumes I would pretty much forfeit Turn 1 all just so I don't get picked off from within my own half of the map.

I agree it is hard to say without seeing the map, but when most schemes require killing to a certain extent and the strategy is Reckoning, you can't afford to let your opponent get the initiative. Dreamer, and plenty other crews besides him, also don't have a Lure-like effect while Titania has her Triggered Place. This already puts you behind as she can pull models in range while dealing damage while your models would have to spend precious AP in closing the gap.

I've already agreed that my opponent's deck was on fire when it came to hitting that Trigger and the Terrifying duels. The thing is Neverborn has Reflexes so they can try and get out of it. Thunders can try it with Stealth, but these are all upgrades. Not every crew can field counter-tech on important models just to stop the chain of stat 6+ attacks. I'm already thinking far beyond The Dreamer and looking at Titania more in general. There are plenty of crews that can't get out of the Underbrush without a very high investment made. Say Titania versus Hamelin happens. I would not rate Hamelin's chances of victory highly.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

That's a matter for debate. Titania only doing weak damage to Teddy is probably never going to kill him on her own. picking the times to cheat against this sort of thing is a skill that most Malifaux players learn, such as cheating to stop onslaught, but allowing a hit without a trigger to go through. If they have hit the trigger and a straight damage flip, then I think its worth you cheating as low as possible to make it a negative damage flip. If they don't have the trigger, then you can probably not cheat, knowing that if they want to move you far enough to keep you, they will need to cheat in the suit, and there are so only many crows they have. (of course the rest of the turns plan will matter here).

Titania is not the only one hitting the model though. That's what makes the Injured so strong. Titania already has decent to amazing damage if you hit the Trigger.

Regarding the cascading: Titania has an attack stat of 6, which puts her by default above a lot of defense stats. In a Dreamer crew, only Serena Bowman and Stitched together have such a Defense stat, which means she already has an inherent advantage when it comes to flipping and forcing you to cheat first. Sure, you can cheat that 13 on a stat 5, but he can still let it go through with a 12. Once that first hit gets in, it becomes extremely difficult to stop it from spiraling out of control as you already couldn't stop it when you were only -1. What are you going to do now that you have -2? The only counterplay you have to this type of Action is straight-up having a better hand than whatever your opponent has, which is not what I consider to be viable counterplay at all.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

While I agree assist is risky because of the movement, its otherwise fairly good. You already have used one of Titanias AP to get in position, so a single assist should easily remove the injured + 2 (you can cheat the flip if you want) meaning that one of the 2 sources has gone. Yes, Aeslin can then probably get both the target and the assister with a blast, but 2 models with Injuried +1 is normally less of a problem than 1 with Injured +2. And whilst Aeslin can probably get a second attack, its only if you've allowed your model to get into some undergrowth ladder to bring them towards you with into the vines that Aeslin hasn't had to move.

In later turns when she can get 3 attacks, the assisting may be of less use, but its still something to consider.

As I said before, if Titania can place a model closer to her crew, you can pretty much forget about Assist in Turn 1 unless you also have some form of Place OR activate that model and run all the way back, effectively "wasting" and entire Turn of that model. Sure, it's a trade for a master activation, but the damage that master did still sticks.

Aeslin blasting only 1 Injured is probably only on Turn 1 as from Turn 2 onwards she can and will always use all her attacks to get you. If she can get 2 blasts off, it becomes a very decent amount of damage for 2 AP + the Injured spread turns all the other models in the crew even more into killing machines. The crew is already very reliable when hitting as only Gorar and a (solo) Bultungin have a stat 5 attack. The rest ALL have a stat 6 attack. Even Injured +1 skews the balance for her crew in a very big favor offensively, which means the player can reserve cards for defensive flips and get an advantage there as well. While Dreamer can stack the deck, Titania just becomes nigh card-independant and can get most things done with an average starting hand.

Injured itself is a very cascading effect and when you get that for free on stat 6 attacks, there might be a problem.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

(And the higher stat has the advantage when it comes to random flipping, its only if the stats are tied the Attacker has the advantage. The degree of advantage that point of Injured does depends on the stats of both models. Its at its best as the 2 values are close, and as they get further away, it makes less difference).

I agree with the first part, but disagree with the second part.

First part: Titania's crew has very high attack stats (with decent damage tracks) to begin with. This means on average they'll have a higher attack stat than the opponent's defense stat. This means the flipping is already in her favour before Injured comes into play.

Second part: Higher Injured allows you to be more card-independant as your actions become nearly guaranteed to succeed. If you have an advantage of 3, you can effectively shut out an opponent with a 10, barring Red Joker ofcourse. That means 17 cards in your deck, 31% of your deck, doesn't even allow for any counterplay and this "only" requires Injured +2 on a model which  has Df 5. Your opponent probably won't have those high cards in hand anymore either way when he tries to stop the original applications of Injured in the first place.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

In your game she had to have waited long enough to let you move Chompy near enough. If you had managed to hold that second daydream push a couple more activations, then its much less likely that so much could be unloaded into Chompy in one turn. (I don't know exactly how it went, but chances are you'll have similar number of activations in the first turn)

I had to go first. I activated Widow Weaver, Bandersnatch and my 3 Daydreams of which the third one gave the fatal push. I had 2 models more than my opponent, so he used 1 pass token and some other insignificant models to pad up his activations: Autumn Knight and Waldgeist.

I could have waited with that last push, but I only had Dreamer, Coppelius, Teddy and a Daydream left. at that point. Unless I wen by the sides, I could not escape the trap.

Going purely via the sides in Reckoning with Detonate Charges, Search The Ruins, Dig Their Graves, Take Prisoner and Power Ritual does not sound like a good plan and Titania's crew can always generate extra Underbrush markers there either way. Schemes generally require interaction with the opposing crew one way or another and not going center would give 2 free points for Search The Ruins and no points for me from any other scheme besides perhaps Power Ritual. That does not sound like a good deal.

I actually burned 6 stones trying to keep Chompy alive and it still failed. Chompy doesn't have Armor, so Titania and Aeslin alone are enough to actually 1-round him if he doesn't use stones. I do not consider that to be such a crazy investment to be honest.

The thing is Titania is actually content at hitting many times on minimum damage is she gets her Trigger off. The difference between moderate + no Trigger and weak + Trigger is only 1 damage. If you are guaranteed to do damage, you have to ask whether or not it becomes worth spending a higher card to force a bit of additional damage. Why spend an 8-9 to be able to get a straight flip if you can use that card to force other models to actually hit their attacks and increase the total damage the crew pumps out?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you're trying to make. It's just that guaranteed attacks tend to shift the focus of your opponent to other things that are not-so-guaranteed. Being able to force an opponent to cheat a decently high card while still winning and getting your original goal, damage + Injured, off while having no investment from your own hand is massive.

As for the rest of my crew, they could not reach the opponent on Turn 1. My opponent had Concealed models, making Bend Reality useless. I had the choice between summoning or using Focus + Bend Reality because I already needed a Walk to get within range. I tried to go for the most surefire way of keeping Chompy alive, so I summoned, walked twice and used my Free Action to give him Shielded +1. Unfortunately that was not enough.

The rest of my crew had to Walk to get in range. Coppelius got in a prime position to flank on Turn 2, the Daydreams had exhausted their pushes and Walked up once, Teddy tried a last-ditch effort by using his Free Action to get Chompy out of engagement, but it was already too late.

The thing that completely screwed me up, was that Titania managed to place Chompy so far forward that the rest of my crew needed an entire Turn just to get into position, while his crew could kill Chompy as they saw fit without moving. This brings me once again to the point that that single action is overloaded by being a superior ranged action which deals beater-levels of damage while spreading Injured and displacing opposing models.

I've already been playing for several years and I think I have a decent grip on what is or isn't too bad. Right now I feel like Titania is getting close to Sanddeep level which is something I would really like to avoid. I'm still of the principle a crew shouldn't be AND tanky AND killy AND schemy AND disrupty all at thesame time with just a light investment in stones. Because that's what Titania has right now.

Don't get me wrong, Dreamer also violates this principle. The thing is he needs a bigger stone investment to do those things than Titania. You can't really call Dreamer Schemy unless you bring in Widow Weaver;.You can't call him killy unless you bring in Teddy/Carver. Titania just needs to bring Aeslin and she can already scheme via Aeslin's Free Action and they are very reliable to pump out a ton of damage thanks to their superior ranged attacks with Injured.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

 is purely a down side. It always has been. putting it on an action will only make that action worse. Actions with out it need to consider that extra power when you balance the action.

I would agree an 8" attack doing 2/4/5 + Injured is a very powerful attack. Its certainly one of the more powerful attacks in the game. Add in the chance to get positive flips and extra damage on a trigger, and you need to plan around that. (I agree that I dislike the cardhere meaning there is almost no reason to use her attack) . There have been plenty of debates over the power of long ranged actions, and even some with people going "if they don't ignore the downsides, then there is no point in the models". (I don't agree with that).

Neverborn Masters seem to be pretty good at having long ranged attacks without using . Titanias is probably the most powerful of them (Its hard to judge Pandoras as it depends on her target), but Zoraidas isn't too far behind (Shorter range, lower top end but the trigger is for someone else to attack rather than extra damage). It also seems to be the main Action of Titania, which I'm not so sure it is for any of  the other ones.

There were plenty of people complaining about Decay on Lady Justice, saying it is a pointless action and not worth her having it. Its worth remembering that the action exists in several places.  There were also more complaints during the public beta about Dreamer being too powerful than about Titania being too powerful.  That doesn't mean you're wrong, but you are spreading a different message to other people.

I agree with you here. A gun symbol is only making actions worse. In that sense, those Actions should be rewarded by having higher positives, be it damage, conditions, whatever else.

The thing about Titania's Action though is that it's actually superior to every Action that pops into my mind. There might be better ones that I'm not thinking about, but they will be hard to find. It doesn't just stop at dealing a truckload of damage. It also gives Injured by default just for winning the duel. Then she can choose between 2 very good Triggers as well.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I would have avoided getting close to a section of the board that would trap me permanently in underbush markers. Now it may be that the nature of the board layout makes this a hard thing to do,  but that's not going to be true on all boards. Hire

I think you lost a part of your sentence here. It would probably be something like: Hire models that have Flight, ... and ignore the severe terrain penalties. Rather difficult for a lot of crews, unless they start hiring from other keywords. That doesn't seem to be the intended design as the push in M3E is for more thematic crews instead of just bunching up the strongest ones.

Board layout is also something you might not have control over and the Underbrush markers can be pushed, making safe zones difficult te actually have. Neverborn have Reflexes, but imagine crews that can't push their way out. And even Reflexes/pushes are still not a guarantee to get out considering Titania can move those markers around.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Lots of people complain about minimum 2 damage as being too low.  I can imagine that It wasn't great against Teddy and its armour until you started being able to cheat the damage flips (which the injured will help a lot, so perhaps its worth using your good cards to make it an uncheatable damage flip. Sure, Titania can cheat an equivalent card to make it cheatable, but then she is using up a lot of resources. (and less likely to be getting her trigger)

While this sounds theoretically sound, it just doesn't work. Once your model gets Injured enough, it becomes wasteful to spend cards in trying to get the flips to negative. Your model is going to die either way, so you might as well try and make the biggest impact it can get.

Your opponent also doesn't have to cheat thesame card, but can use a much lower suit to just get the Trigger off. It saves your opponent cards in the long run (no cheating damage needed) while still doing a minimum of 2 damage on an Armor 1 model. Yes it takes AP, but killing a 10 stone model should take a decent amount of effect in my opinion. Injured completely ignore the investment part, except for AP. No cards needed, because you're almost guaranteed a hit.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Assist, or condition removal are  very important when Injured is around. Its a little harder to get assist to work, when you also have the chance they are going to move you. But at least if there is a good spot to move you to, you can prepare for that.

Assist is very difficult to pull off against Titania because she can place a model away from the Assister. Assist is also not reliable due to the 1/2/3 flip. -1 Injured sounds good, but then you realise you're still on -2. A small difference, but still a massive advantage for your opponent.

Then there's Aeslin who has guaranteed blasts. Ranged condition removal should do the trick, but this crew has 2 models that can spam Injured. You can activate your condition removal before the second Injurer goes off, but 1 high card in your opponent's hand can and will ruin your day. Both your hands are limited and an Attacker always has an advantage when it comes to random flipping.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

It seems like Titania created a trap for you, and you fell for it. If you were to play the same game again, I would expect you to not move Chompy to within 3" of a marker until at least one of those big hitters has activated. (if at all). Titania can probably still get you in a marker, but it takes more and more AP, making it less and less effective. (And the later in the turn she goes, the les she can get out of that Injured).

I don't deny my opponent played masterfully. The thing is just the amount of board control Titania has by default. You actually can't move Chompy within 5" of a marker instead of 3". Yes, Titania won't get the +, but she'll generally have a high card ready to cheat either way to get the Injured rolling. Then you'll still be within 2" of a marker, which means she can place you on the far side of it. Your 50mm model will have been Placed 2"-ish + 50mm base closer to their crew, so in total close to 4". This already makes it a lot harder for your condition removal to reach your model.

Titania can generally go very early in the Turn with little downside because bursting her down is hard. She has HtW, Cruel Disappointment, Life Leech, Soulstones and 15 Health to keep her alive. I think a master with that much defensive tech should not have such a great offensive threat as well.

16 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

How tall were the crate and the wall? Because it might be easy to miss, but Butterfly Jump isn't a push, it's a move. Still effected by Severe terrain, but neither needs to be in a straight line, nor stop when contacting Blocking (but Climable) terrain.

The distinction is important.

Due to placement it was not possible to do this. The base has to fit completely over the wall, making it 2" already needed for that. The wall was 2" high, so Butterfly could not save me.

The crate was pretty much thesame. The crate was not big enough to fit Chompy completely on it and he had to go partially over a marker to reach there. The 3" from Butterfly jump was far too short for that.

7 minutes ago, bedjy said:

Rebuild Corpus 10" - - -
Target friendly non-Ancestor model and choose one of its Attached Reliquary Upgrades. Replace the target with the model named in the title of the the chosen Upgrade, then the new model Heals 5. Draw two cards.

In fact, to resolve the action, you just read it. First replace, then heal. Then draw 2. You can't replace (because the model is already on the table), so you can't heal. Then draw 2 (nothing prevents you from resolving that last part).

But it's clearly not the intent of the Action.

Thanks for the nice explanation. You are absolutely correct that nothing currently prevents you from drawing those 2 cards. Just like you, I would also not abuse it as it is very obviously not meant to work that way.

Then again, I'm sure most casual players would already overlook the fact that this is possible and our tournaments are, for the most part, rather casual. I'm also fairly certain our Henchman would rule against it when people would use it, as it's obviously an oversight from before the Chiaki change.

Here's to hoping they fixed it in the final release

16 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

Yan Lo is strange . I used to like him a lot before the trigger on Chiaki came out. Now it is a brainless master. You simply Sunder the Soul of Izamu turn one on a Gokudo and you rush him for a turn one charge (with the 10k pushes ). The enemy can't ignore him and if he dies you simply replace it and you summoned a new Gokudo for schemes where you need him. And then there is the glitch on the master ability. On turn one you can simply draw 6 cards with YanLo for refreshing your whole hand (he can't really do anything on turn one anyway).  I won the last games against him simply ignoring his whole crew and scheming . If you don't have a good way to burst down the Gokudos is like punching a rubber wall , but if you lose to much time looking for them you are going to lose anyway . Bursting down YanLo is the best option but it is far from easy . 

Mind explaining the card trick with Yan Lo drawing 6 cards for the hand refresh? A quick glance at both him and his upgrades don't seem to suggest how he could redraw that many cards in a single Turn. I can understand 3 if you hit the Trigger on his attack 3 times, but doing that on Turn 1 might be a bit challenging.

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

That quote seems to say that base contact isn't "in terrain" since it says there is a difference between touching and overlapping. You can be in base contact with Impassable terrain without being in the terrain. SO its fairly easy to get the into the thorns bonus, but much harder to get the flip. Touching is enough to use range 0 actions, so you have to be able to do that to things like models which also supports touching and in  being 2 different things. Page 28 when you look at the dropping impassible markers it specifies you can do it in base contact but you can't do it so it overlaps the creating model.

I don't know how much that would have changed your game, but probably a lot of those positive attack flips wouldn't have happened (Although they possibly shouldn't anyway since you could have butterfly jumped outside of the terrain each time even if you can't avoid the into the thorns trigger ). The other obvious tactical suggestion is to make sure you have models ready to Assist to remove Injured after Titanias go. Injured is a pretty strong condition, and if you know you're going to be facing it, (as you would in this match up normally) you probably ought to have  a plan to deal with it. 

(You're possible right, you might struggle to stop her walk- push the marker 3" get a positive attack flip hit you with injured, but because she will resolve the trigger before you do your butterfly jump you ought to not be in severe terrain for the next attack. Being more than 3" from an underbush marker may be tricky depending on your table, but at least its something under your control).

I'll have to keep that in mind, but it would not have mattered for Chompy unfortunately. Because Titania can move Underbrush markers, she created a situation where it was not possible to be outside of base contact. It was masterful of the player to have seen and forced this, but it feels bad to be against.

The situation was something like this: my right side was a wall. the left side had a Blocking crate stopping pushes. In a diagonal was the Autumn Knight. Next to the crate, close to the Autumn Knight was an Undergrowth marker. After moving a second marker, they were close to eachother. Chompy being placed meant his base was touching both markers at thesame time, leaving me no room to push out with Reflexes. 3" because we played push through severe terrain wrong, was not enough to get out of range because I could only go straight though the Undergrowth markers. All the rest had me blocked. Right side was the wall, left side was the crate and straight ahead was the Autumn Knight, which meant I was still within the Undergrowth next to him. If I had a 30mm base, I could have squeezed through, but Chompy's (and Teddy's) 50mm base made that impossible. Once the initial place was done, there was no way of getting out.

24 minutes ago, Adran said:

Now it may well be that you were right and you had no hope from here on in. But if your game plan was this reliant on Teddy and Chompy, it was potentially a flawed plan or just unable to cope with the huge amount of luck going against you.

Considering the strategy was Reckoning, I would say I was indeed rather reliant on Teddy and Chompy.

Widow Weaver was off to a side dropping markers, but she was going to get the Hooded Rider against her. Not really a matchup I feel confident about to be honest. Weaver can run, but Hooded has close to thesame amount of mobility leaving her no time to drop markers; She would have to fight, win and then still somehow find the time to drop all the markers as required.

Coppelius was coming in for a flank in Turn 2 and managed to Slow a couple of models with his pulse, but by that Time both Teddy and LCB were already dead.

My summons died before they could do activate due to blasts from Aeslin and a single blast attack from Hooded Rider before he went off to the side to intercept Widow Weaver.

If I could have activated my Stitched Together, I might have had a chance of dealing significant damage to Aeslin and potentially kill her. Unfortunately at the end of Turn 2, Aeslin was only Slow and had taken no damage whatsoever.

32 minutes ago, Adran said:

Not knowing how the game went, I assume Chompy was left in range of Killjoy and Aeslin.  Which I think means that Chompy was also in range of either Killjoy or Aeslin to attack them(Butterfly jump means they can't be in range to attack you, and out of range for you to attack them). He would probably not succeed in killing them with out a little luck, but he should have made a decent mess of them ready for something else.

I've not faced Titania, but I always take any report saying "I faced the crew once and it slaughtered me, it must be broken" with a pinch of salt. Malifaux has always had cases where not knowing your opponents crew capabilities will remove you from a game, and I don't think that is ever likely to go away. If The Crew was able to do this to you several. times in a row when you have triued to counter it, with a wide range of crews then it might be a problem.

Due to the placements of the markers, terrain and Autumn Knight, I did not have a charge path available to get Chompy onto the backline. The only time I would have had that path, Chompy would be engaged by the Autumn Knight. Unfortunately their Killjoy did have a charge lane available on Chompy, which meant he was nearly certain to die.

The problem I have with Titania is that this situation is rather easy to create. Since both Titania and Aeslin have no notion of Friendly Fire, Cover or Concealment (from Underbrush), they are free to attack from 8" range without restriction.

I still think that Action is overloaded as it allows you to do beater damage from range on stat 6(+) without caring about anything besides LoS while still stacking one of the strongest Conditions in the game up to a +5 level if you focus-fire + Aeslins blasts can splash it to possible other models as well. Every single time you hit makes it easier to hit the subsequent attack and it does not even require a Trigger.

Aeslins Injured can be stopped if you use a stone and block all the damage, but once again I don't think the Injured should just be on there automatically.

Both Titania's and Aeslins Attack bring back a problematic highlight from M2E, which was that ranged attacks with a gun symbol are far inferior to those that don't have a gun symbol. Concealing is supposed to even out that field, but Titania straight-up ignores all Concealment and they both ignore Concealment from Underbrush markers.

6 minutes ago, (Keenan) said:

Jesus dude give people water if you're bringing this much salt. 

You got rocked because you didn't play what you brought properly and you went into a crew that you knew nothing about. It happens to literally everyone. If it bothers you that much play more until you find a way to win. Or quit altogether I really don't care, but everything you've posted here has been nothing but whiny. 

Thank you for your very insightful reply. /s

So far the advice I've gotten is to not play against Titania. Give up entire Turns of positioning because of how much utility and displacement she has. That is not a solution, but a problem.

8 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Just something I'm having trouble with, but can someone point me to where being in base contact with terrain counts as being IN the terrain?

Cause it does matter for Awakened Hunger's . The Into Thorns trigger obviously applies, but the only section I've found is...
"Any time a model’s base is overlapping terrain, it is said to be in that terrain. If a model’s base is touching terrain (either overlapping or directly next to the terrain), that model is within 0" of that terrain."

Seems to say that base contact isn't overlapping, therefore it's not "in". The section in brackets seems to only to clarify what 0" is.

Obviously, Queen's Command allows Titania to slide the Undergrowth under a model easily enough, but it seems like it needs Bultingin or Rougarou or the Gorar to be involved to push it in again if it walked out on it's action.

So, while Chompy might have had to eat Titania's attacks, he shouldn't have had to eat it from Aeslin if he moved out. And with Mv6, that should get Chompy off an Undergrowth Marker.

Unless I'm mistaken?

Page 36 of the rulebook:

• Any time a model’s base is overlapping terrain, it is said to be in that terrain. If a model’s base is touching terrain (either overlapping or directly next to the terrain), that model is within 0"  of that terrain.

This should be the part "If a model's base is touching terrain". Being in base contact means you are "touching" it because otherwise you could never do 0" attacks. I believe this was clarified in a post on the old beta forums, but I obviously can't find that. I hope they clarify this in the final version of the rulebook.

Getting completely through a 50mm marker is just doable for Chompy, but it wouldn't help against Aeslin. Aeslin doesn't have the + on Attack that Titania has, but she does have the suit built-in to place you back into the Terrain. Depending on how you are placed before by Titania, just like in my game when I was placed next to a marker and into Engagement, there might not be a way to get 2" away from an Undergrowth marker, even when you spend 2 AP just walking.

I'm amazed with Jakob being considered busted. Is it the "Succumb to Darkness" that's causing it? Haven't played him since Closed Beta and only up to the Kitty Dumont nerf.

Asami I can understand, but I still feel like Kirai is superior to her due to: 1) not having the downsides of managing Flicker and 2) Vengeance allowing you to passively damage models, no matter the range. I've always felt Kirai had more board control due to Vengeance and only with Asami did I stand a chance.

Yan Lo on Turn 3+ ... hmm, I like where this guy is going. I like his power-up mechanic and I want to thank Wyrd for allowing him to be a master from Turn 2 and not Turn 3. Most tournament games I play only last until Turn 3, which is why he was so bad in M2E.

I gave up on Shenlong as he kept going OP= > UP => somewhat balanced => repeat cycle for nearly the entire time. What's his status right now?

The rest I will refrain from as I haven't played them enough, but I mainly heard from people in my group Mei Feng was possibly the strongest Thunders Master. This was in Februari though.

25 minutes ago, Tors said:

--> of course in a single turn! How much longer should a model stay when beeing attack by thrice his value?

People complained about alpha strikes in M2E. M3E was supposed to take this away for the most part. M3E is supposed to be less damaging and more of an equalizer. To be honest, this just shouldn't be able to be done with only 3 models invested.

42 minutes ago, Tors said:

--> The List you posted creates 5 (maybe 4, not sure with the waldgeist). The extras are created within 6" and on cost of attack actions of those models models you fear so tremendously. Assuming your Model is in a perfect triangle between 3 Markers, then you can't get out with only butterfly jump indeed. But i have to say that is the worst possible placement for your model, only achievable if you are placed in b2b with the First marker and the other two germinated or moved in contact with your model, as the start-of-game placing rules prevend them to be so close. So this turn 1 perfect triangle and walk + 2 attacks from titania is only possible if she hit the queens command triggern in addition. That would mean she hit 3 non-printed triggers without cheating while winning the duels and TNs. Thats pretty good!

If only the markers were the only terrain, the models did not block movement and everyone had flying. If only Titania didn't have a Free Action which moves 1-2 of those markers and also deals damage. You do know that Injured makes it extremely easy to hit things and she gets a + to attack to rub it in even more, right?

56 minutes ago, Tors said:

--> Blocking as in no LOS. And yes she is, she can't summon stiched after all. Also i would like stunned and or distracted in addition. And targeting wp would also be great with titania! Maybe it could ignore LOS and have the crows trigger build in. You see? Awakened Hunger has hardly everything possible and everything what i want. So after we both hyperboled a little, i think we can go back, to what it actually does and stop dreaming about theoretically similiar actions that could be printed on other models stat cards, can't we?

Find me an Action in the entire game which is stronger than this one. I'll wait. Titania is possibly one of the strongest models in the entire game due to how overloaded that one single action is. There is 99.9% no case to be made to even consider using her melee attack action. It really feels like this action should have a gun symbol on it to add some sort of balance to it.

1 hour ago, Tors said:

--> not Overextending as in stay away just slightly above 8" or use LOS blocking/dense Terrain so she has to spend her AP walking. Thats 3-6 Damage less per AP Walking!

I'll stay in my final 3" of the deployment zone, that'll teach her! My model was close to 14" away from her and she still managed to pull in into combat while dealing close to half it's Health in damage AND giving Injured despite using stones to block damage. She deals a ton of damage, has a pseudo-Lure AND makes it trivial for any model to hit all in a single Action, which she can use up to 3 times in an Activation.

1 hour ago, Tors said:

--> every summoned peasent (besides Dadreams) and every model you brought is capable of scoring take prisoner and power ritual. Make the game wide, Titania/Aeslin/Killjoy can't be everywhere at the same time and killing one or two of them is perfectly doable with the likes of stiched/Teddy/Chompy/Coppelius. Dreamer has a viable shooting too. And Daydream pushes and chain activation enables even more then 14" attack vectors.

It's hard to score something if your models are all dead. In order to score for the reveal of Take Prisoner, no enemy models are allowed to be within 4" of the chosen model. That's a slight problem when walking up means instant doom and certain death.

Titania herself can kill most normal models in a single Activation, Aeslin stands in the back firing Injured Blasts and Killjoy can go solo and kill a model there as well. Killjoy is not a problem, but you have to kill him several time for it to stick pr he comes back via Blood Sacrifice.

Aeslin and Titania handing out Injured like sweet candy and still doing a boatload of damage at thesame time might be too much. Remember when people complained about Zoraida being able to stack Injured via the Doll, so they only allowed the doll to hand out 1 Injured? This is getting close to thesame, except dealing more damage.

Killing Titania is rather hard as she can use stones, has HtW, Cruel Disappointment and Life Leech. She can, if needed, swap out some damage for Healing on her Triggers as well. Aeslin is in the back, so you generally shouldn't be able to reach her unless the opponent messes up or has some sort of trap set up in which he baits you to go for her.

Dreamer has viable shooting too, but he has a gun symbol. He also can't ignore Concealing and Cover. His damage track is lower, but that's because he ignores Armor and Incorporeal, which is a fair trade. He can choose Df or Wp to shoot on, but he generally likes Wp due to being able to get his summons out that way.

1 hour ago, Tors said:

--> No downside? He spend X AP per killed model. Your got-killed-List containes about 35HP thats 13 times attacking and hitting all those non Build in triggers. So 13 AP! Not accounting for Amor, Regeneration, Terrifying and SS Prevention or any healing or wallking within range. I would say its More reasonable to assume he needs at least 5 more (and thats ery very conservative!) So 18AP from valuable models during turn 1&2, his Crew only generates 15per Turn (not counting moving with free actions and or onslaught and so on). I think thats a heafty price tak. What did you do with your first 20-30AP besides picking the worst spots to stand?

Look at the amount of stones killed via those Actions. In 2 Turns he kills Teddy (10 stones), Chompy (8 stones), Stitched (6 stones) and 2x Alp (10 stones) for a grand total of 34 stones. He spent about 20 Actions on it thanks to some other models also helping out. That's close to 2 stones per AP spent in value, which is insane.

What did I do? First an entire Turn to even get in range, because not everyone can place models up to 10". Then I tried to go for an attack with multiple models in order to somehow get some failed WP duels to get my summons out. Eventually Coppelius went MVP with his TN13 Pulse, but that was for a part because my opponent already knew the game was over. Teddy and LCB were already dead at this point in time and all I got was Teddy killing an Autumn Knight. Who could have guessed models become fodder once they reach 0 Df and Wp due to Injured?

1 hour ago, Tors said:

But i get the feeling the whole reason of this thread is to whine, pointing the Finger at evil Titania and pretending not being at fault for anything, so godspeed to you! I am out.

Your solution to the problem is staying out of range. You can't play Malifaux properly if you're not allowed to move outside of your deployment zone. In order to score schemes, you have to move ever so slightly and you can't entirely give up the First Turn because they could potentially move a bit forward and Place you into their army. No matter how far you are, Titania can and will be able to get you.

You feel like the guy defending M2E Nicodem and first week M3E Kirai. If the counterplay is to not play against a certain Master, perhaps there might be a problem with said Master?

27 minutes ago, Da Git said:

 First off... Kneel before the true queen of malifaux... Muhahahahaha!

Now that's out of the way, time to actually contribute

Sounds like a rough game... to be honest though, it generally always is if you go into a crew blind... Do you at least have some idea what you can do next time? Eg. Don't end a push/move within 2" of an Underbrush Marker!

Also was the opponent spending stones or just getting lucky flips to get the Crows for her trigger?  Seriously, wish I had that luck though from what you posted! he passed every terror with Titania, Aeslin and Killjoy? And then hit everytime? That deck's on fire!

His deck was flipping well indeed. Turn 1 he only needed to cheat 2 cards offensively, of which 1 was to get a moderate damage instead of a weak damage. The other one was for a Terrifying check, but I can't recall if it was for Aeslin or Titania. I got unlucky as usual with my severes dropping into Lucid Dream or a negative damage flip with corresponding weak card).

Unfortunately the game was such a stomp that I did not learn anything from it. The crew has so many Underbrush markers so you can't avoid all of them. Titania cn also move them and then the placement begins. The MVP of the game was 100% Titania with a close runner-up for Aeslin. Injured stacking is broken in this crew with just both of them as they can easily get a model to -5 Df and Wp. Aeslin also has Blasts for more Injured spamming, so never keerp 2 models within a 50mm marker of eachother because those blasts WILL come. I mean, even the weak damage has an Injured Blast

33 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Disagree with this comparison (& an master comparison, for that matter) for a few reasons

• You're looking at the attacks entirely in a bubble and ignoring everything else (although I would agree that Titania's the stronger master)... She also only gets the + if the target is in Severe terrain (admittedly, not hard)
• Titania needs to either get a crow or stone to get the trigger, Nekima has it built in so can use her triggers, which aren't bad.
• The reason I disagree with master comparisons is key words. A super master can have a rubbish keyword and be kinda-balanced (not counting versatile). This is where Nekima comes out on top IMO as Nephilim are a really good key word. Their raw speed and mass Flight will win you games (not too mention, they're rather hitty!). 

I have not played against a (decent) Nekima player yet, but my impressions of her crew so far have not really amazed me. Black Blood is their thing and they are fast, so they can get in your face. Their damage tracks (purely damage tracks) are average. Their defensive tech is lackluster and Regeneration can't really keep you up.

I would say they shine in a strat + scheme pool where you have to go all over the place so they can't get focussed down. I would mostly say that Titania's crew would be superior to Nekima's crew because Titania can bunch up and barely gets punished for it thanks to Hard To Wound, Cruel Disappointment, Titania's/Aeslin placement tricks with the Underbrush markers and Killjoy's Hooked Chain.

But again, I have not played against a competent Nekima player. I completely destroyed the one I did play against with pre-buff Hamelin. That's just something that shouldn't happen ever.

36 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Firstly, he should have only placed 5 at the start of the game, and all of them have to be 2" away from any other markers. Then any other markers they place with Germinate have to be 2" from each other, so the only way for markers to be within 2" of each other is with The Queen's Command. So, you sent your 8 wd beater who's only defense is Terrifying and Butterfly Jump(which gets hampered by severe terrain) straight into the enemy crew alone without knowing what that crew can do. Right off the bat this is 100% your fault. Secondly, you played Injured wrong. It hard caps at -2 to Df and Wp regardless of the value on it. So yeah, your opponent *only* needed 3 whole high quality model activations to kill a model with 8 wds because you over extended that model and put it in immediate range of all 3 of them, and instead of using Dreamer and your last Daydream or Teddy to get it of range of the other models you did... what? Activated LCB in range of an aura that would damage you instead of getting him out first with Dreamer or a Daydream. This would also have the added bonus of getting Chompy near your models so they can use the Assist action and remove his Injured. And then once you saw how good Titania's attack is, you decided to leave Teddy, who has worse stats but slightly more wounds, within range for Titania to spend her entire turn attacking him.

Just to make sure you saw: LCB had only gone up about 5" from Daydream pushes. He was just within 14" of Titania. She pulled him into the crew with her 2 attacks. It was well played by my opponent, but an 8" range non-shooting Attack which does 2/4/5 (3/5/6) WITH Place, WITH Injured WITH +flip on attack MIGHT JUST BE overtuned. Titania has beater damage with pre-nerf Kitty Dumont levels of displacement and this is somehow called fine? LCB was hardstuck in that place without any way of getting out thanks to the Underbrush markers

I did not move LCB into Titania's range during his activation as Titania placed him there herself. I had to activate him to get the Regeneration and I was hoping on getting some healing from his Trigger, which did not work out unfortunately. You know, due to having no cards and no stones and all.

I would also like you to note that it took 3 models because I spent 6 stones to keep him alive, used Dreamer's 0 for Shielded AND HE STILL DIED Turn 1. If I hadn't used stones, Titania + Aeslin would have been enough. My opponent also did not use a full rotation of damage, because otherwise he would have gotten another attack off with Titania instead of moving this time around.

Regarding Teddy: I brought him in to use his Free Action to get Chompy out of the action, but unfortunately it was not enough. Teddy needed his entire activation + a Daydream push to even get close enough to attempt his 0 action. That alone shows how far away LCB was displaced from Titania's attacks.

Also please provide me with the notice that Injured caps at -2? The pdf of 22/03 does not mention this at all.

49 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Also, you're complaining about all this amazing offensive capabilities with good defense to go with it, but look at Teddy. 3/4/6 with swallow you whole. Regenartion 1, armor 1, healing anytime a model it's engaged with fails a Wp duel, I've Got Your Back with a trigger to heal for 2, and Consume which allows you to just eat your fodder summons to heal up equal to how much health they have. Then let's look at the healing available in the crew. Coppelius heals all nightmares in pulse 3 of the target with Unhinge. Serena Bowman has a 1/2/3 heal that also removes a condition and has the swift action trigger. Dreamer has Your Nightmare with the My Loyal Servent trigger and a bonus action to pulse out shielded. Not to mention that every nightmare aside from Daydreams has Feed on Fear, many of them have a trigger on an action to heal, and then we also have Alps who put all enemies around them on a negative to their damage flips.

Swallow you whole only works if you kill a model. Armor +1 on a model with 4 Df means he's getting hit ... a lot. Add some Injured to that and you might as well just remove it from the table. 2 Turns in a row where a model's defences are completely stripped and it would only continued for every other turn ever.

Healing works only if a model he's engaged with fails a WP duel, but I wish you luck on that vs Titania and her WP7.  Aeslin has 6 and then you have Killjoy/Autumn Knight at 5. Those are not stats you can just roll over. You seem to forget you actually have to win duels to get those healing procs AND they have to be in Engagement range. You're also suggesting to bunch up against Aeslin who can Blast Injured.

Dreamer is certainly a crew that can't complain about healing, but they are all dependant on specific things for your opponent to fail. Meanwhile they get destroyed from the Injured spam the Titania crew does, which also allows her crew to keep cards to win those duels against you. Healing will only get you as far as -3 Df and WP allows you to get and no amount of healing will save a model getting banged by 3 models of min 2-3 damage per hit which is guaranteed to hit due to the aforementioned Injured.

17 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

 

My 3.22.19 (latest?) beta rulebook says:

Nothing about them capping that I can see.

I do agree with the commenters that based on the OP Titania doesn't sound that out of whack (I've got no play experience with/against her to back this up). Lots of matchups can lead into that if you rush in blind.

I suggest you try and find a player that plays Titania. I barely saw battle reports of her passing by after the Concealing nerf and she was largely left untouched throughout the rest of both beta's.

Just a side-note on comparison: Titania with her Trigger has thesame damage track as Nekima. The difference is the Nekima has stat 7 vs Titania's Stat 6+ and the fact that Nekima needs to be in Melee range, while Titania is allowed 8" non-shooting. They both have a displacement, but Titania also has the Injured added on top of that. Titania is also a lot tankier than Nekima. Titania is basicly an upgraded Nekima at this point. Considering her thing is to be tanky, this is rather disturbing.

8 minutes ago, Tors said:

- you lost one ~10 SS Model a turn because your opponent utilized about 35SS worth of models to do so.

In a single Turn in a way that does not allow counterplay

8 minutes ago, Tors said:

- You prefered to not jump away with reflexes during Titanias Activation, nor the following (and it seems you didn't used the remaining daydream either), forfeiting more than 12" of moving LCB backwarts again and staying in those Bush Markers, to amplifiy the damage done to you. Instead you threw your whole cache at the Problem, thous wasting it on top.

Titania can place me within 2" of an Underbrush marker anyway. I used IR, but could not get away from any Underbrush. He placed me between 2 Underbrush markers, which means I had no way of getting outside of 2" of a marker, even with a 3" push., Part of this was our terrain on setup as well, but he can set up (I think) 7 Underbrush markers on the start of the game, can create extra's AND can move them with Titania. No chance in hell to get out of the trap once he gets going. There pas no way a 50mm model base was NOT touching any severe terrain once the trap had activated and he only needed 3 Brush markers to achieve this out of the 6-7 he placed AT THE START OF THE GAME.

12 minutes ago, Tors said:

- You didn't questioned any abilitys and thread ranges beforehand, because "real life gets in the way" and procceded to overextend one of your best models turn 1, to attack the one opposing model, you have to keep alive to get your sceme done. You didn't seem to utilize blocking terrain in the procces either (through i have no info about the terrain, so this could be unavoidable)

Blocking terrain only works against Actions which have a gun Symbol, which Titania doesn't have. Titania has Flight on Mv 6 with an 8" NON-SHOOTING attack that allows for placements, Injured and min 3 damage, not to mention the of the bonusses this Action has. This single action has everything possible in Malifaux that you want from an Attack action and it's on a Master that has 3 AP. Imagine this action targetting WP and giving it to Dreamer. People would be crying for nerfs, but for Titania it's fine to have something on this power scale on 2 models?

Regarding the overextending: Titania with a single Move has a 14" Threat range. This now happened Turn 1, but it also happened Turn 2. You're basicly saying: stay away from Titania, who has a 6" Flight and 8" overpowered/overtuned attack. That's like saying: M2E Nikodem was fine, just don't engage any of his models and hope he doesn't scheme with them instead then.

17 minutes ago, Tors said:

- You forfeited way before any scemes could be done, thous before the downside of using the majority of your force to spend AP killing could show.

Considering I had no way of scoring Take Prisoner and Power Ritual was highly likely not going to work, he had Take Prisoner and Search The Ruins guaranteed at the end of Turn 2. My opponent had easy acces to 7 points and I had no way of scoring beyond 1 Point for Strat and maybe 1 point for Scheme.

At the end of Turn 2 he had killed:

• Chompy
• Teddy
• Summoned Stiched
• 2 Summoned Alps

I had killed

• Autumn Knight

Let's be fair here, there was no downside to killing that much. He effectively destroyed Dreamer's crew because focus-firing on an Injured +2-+5 model will absolutely demolish it without any possible counterplay. He could still do his schemes because he only needed 3 models for Chompy and 3 for Teddy. The rest was easy pickings.

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

Sorry to tell you, 3e push is impacted by severe terrain. See rulebook page 37:

By chance also on page 37, is a handy callout box that defines "unaffected by terrain":

So yup. They get all the benefits and none of the penalties from terrain they're unaffected by.

So I played Push wrong, but at least we played the rest of the terrain correct. I knew I read it somewhere, but very much thanks for reaffirming. I can only imagine the horror people faced before Concealing got changed back in Closed Beta when it was also working on Melee actions.

Last night I played my first game against the M3E Titania. Due to burnout in my group from Closed Beta, I didn't really play much in Open Beta and was slightly rusty. My opponent was also a first time Titania player and I brought in The Dreamer. We did not look at eachother's crew possibilities as real life tends to get in the way of some stuff. What happened then was the second-most one-sided smackdown in my years of playing this game. The worst was against M3E Kirai when she still had Hanged and this one came VERY close to that. We chose to end the game before Turn 2 even finished because I had lost the majority of my crew.

My crew was:

• Dreamer (6 stones)
• LCB + Inhuman Reflexes
• Teddy + Inhuman reflexes
• Coppelius
• Widow Weaver
• Bandersnatch
• 3 Daydreams

Opponent was:

• Titania
• Gorar
• Aeslin
• Killjoy + Inhuman Reflexes
• Autumn Knight
• Waldgeist
• Hooded Rider

Deployment type: Wedge Deployment.

The scheme pool was Reckoning with Detonate Charges, Search The Ruins, Dig Their Graves, Take Prisoner and Power Ritual.

I took Take Prisoner (Waldgeist) and Power Ritual, my opponent took Search The Ruins and Take Prisoner (Coppelius).

Start of the game he littered the center of the field with 4-5 of those Underbrush Markers and placed some more in my part of the map as well. This made me thankful for Charge being a push, ignoring the severe terrain penalty. There was almost no path for me getting to the center of the map without going through an Underbrush marker.

My deployment was placing LCB far forward. I pushed him with 2 Daydreams so he could get within Charge range of a Waldgeist. Then the bullshit happened as there is no other way to call it that. Some call the master Titania, I call her an overtuned piece which I'm amazed to have survived beta in her overtuned state. Titania moved forward once and used The Queen's command to bring LCB into base contact with an Underbrush marker, also dealing 1 damage in the process. Then she used Awakened Hunger twice, hitting both times without needing to cheat a card. She got a + thanks to me being in Severe Terrain. Doesn't sound too bad, right?

Here's the thing: It's a 8" range NON-SHOOTING stat 6+ attack, ignoring Concealment, dealing 2/4/5 damage AND giving out Injured. Hit the Trigger and it becomes 3/5/6 which is massive. Now the major point on this attack was the In,jured. After Titania has activated, LCB was on -2 WP and Df. Since Titania has 7 WP, she also did not need to cheat a single Terrifying check. My opponent hit his Trigger both times (thanks +flip) and I used 2 stoned which negated 3 damage.

I was compleely missing on how I could turn this around. Chompy was stack due to the Place on the Trigger of Awakened Hunger and Inhuman Reflexes could not get him out. He was also in Engagement Range of Titania, meaning getting out would still keep me within 8" for the next round. In the end I activated LCB and whacked Titania really hard, but he burned 2 stones and also negated 3 damage. Because I activated LCB close to Titania, he took 1 damage from Life Leech, meaning he regenerated only 1 Wound.

THEN my opponent activated Aeslin, the second most bullshit model in this crew. She has Decay, which is pretty close to thesame as Titania's Awakaned Hunger, except with Blasts handing out Injured as well. She used Decay twice, which was easy to hit due to -2 Df and WP from Injured from Titania, stacking it up to -4 Df and WP. The extra damage Trigger is built-in, meaning I ate another 6 damage which burned another 2 stones to stop another 3 damage. So far LCB was down 4 stones and has already taken 6 (-1 Regeneration) damage. He was now on1 Df and 2 WP.

I activated Dreamer and tried keeping him alive by giving him Shielded and getting some summons to block a path, but my opponent has a nearly full hand and my hand was nearly empty. You know, due to all the -Df I had to cheat so my opponent wouldn't get straight flips and damage and straight-up kill LCB with only Titania and Aeslin. Unfortunately Titania's crew has very decent WP stats and I couldn't get any summons out.

Then my opponent activated Killjoy. He charged Chompy, forgot about using the + from moving through and Underbrush and straight-up fodderized LCB as 1 Df vs a stat 6 attack at that point is just dead.

End of Turn 1 I burned all 6 stones and still lost LCB. My opponent only needed 3 models to achieve this: Titania, Aeslin and Killjoy of which Titania and Aeslin were game MVP.

Turn 2 was pretty much thesame: Titania can do 3 attacks on a model (Teddy in this case), hitting through all the Terrifying with ease thanks to 7 WP, setting that model on -3 Df and WP making it easy pickings for other models to take them out.

My problem with Titania (and Aeslin) is the fact that they have an 8" NON-SHOOTING attack which is overloaded on effects. I thought about using Serena Bowmane, but that wouldn't really help all that much. Getting 2 Injured is a death sentence for any model and this crew has 2 models that can do that without counterplay.

Why without counterplay? It' doesn't have a gun-symbol, meaning it can be used into engagements without penalty. It's a min 2 damage attack, which is more like a min 3 due to the Trigger, which also has a Place effect. To top it off, Injured is one of the most powerful conditions in the game as it allows you to win duels without having to spend cards. There is 99.9% no point in ever using her melee attack as it deals less damage and is less reliable due to no +flip.

Aeslin is another can of worms with a BLAST attack handing out Injured. This attack also has the built-in Trigger Titania also used: +1 damage and Place into Underbrush within 2". So this attack allows you to deal 3/3/4 damage, give Injured AND place a model away from you which is a boatload of power for such an attack.

So you're probably thinking now: great offence must mean weak defence. The answer is NOPE. The entire crew has Hard To Wound, putting you on negatives on pretty much every damage flip you ever do. Titania herself has Life Leech, which is a 4" Aura that damages activating models and heals Titania. THEN she also gained Nix' Cluel Disappointment, turning severe into moderate on her friendly models within 3".

Killjoy heals on: 1) killing models, 2) Drink Blood Trigger on a 3/4/6 attack and 3) Free Action Juggernaut, a 1/2/4 Heal because WHY NOT? To top it off, there's Terrifying (11), The default HtW and his Bury mechanic.

Aeslin has HtW, Honorable (no Distracted) and Counterspell.

Autumn Knight has HtW, Armor +1 and the Df Trigger Parry, which deals damage back if he wins the Df duel. To top this off, he has 6 Df 5 WP, meaning a very good statline with all that dfeensive tech.

Gorar has HtW on a 4-wound model, making him a very durable totem which can Replace himself with a killed model.

Hooded Rider ddin't do anything this game, but turns into a semi-unkillable beast thanks to his own HtW, Df Trigger and Titania's Cruel Disappointment.

So you have a crew which can stack the one of the best conditions in the game, deals a boatload of damage, is impossible to hit from Range due to Concealing Underbrush and is tanky beyond words. What are you supposed to do against something of this level?

Bonus question which didn't come up during our game, but could be important to know for my friend. Titania's crew is unaffected by Underbrush Markers. Does this mean her entire crew can ignore the Concealment it gives as well? I would say no, but I can see it going both ways. Doesn't matter for Titania herself as she ignores Concealment anyways, but could be big for Aeslin.

Is there any news on the app upgrade to M3E?

Will it support both M3E and M2E?

Will the game-flow in it finally be fixed when you do the upgrade to M3E?

Will we have to pay again to get the M3E cards in it?

I'd actually read it as the stacking one. You have 2 conditions for activating this:

1. being within a 6" Aura
2. Cheating Fate.

Since there is no limit defined, you would take it at the "after resolving" step as many times as it happened.

If it was only allowed once per Action, it would be mentioned there as Wyrd should know from experience that most opposed duels allow for multiple Cheats.

Any idea on how you would play Hamelin against a summoner? I'm always getting whooped against any summoner because they render Blight-stacking rather ... ineffective.

1 hour ago, Rugh Z'ull said:

You MAY reveal top cards. So you don't have to do it when targeting a friendly model. But if you want it, than yeah, it will be the only one card as only one can be the top card. So there will be no damage.

Was thinking of using it in combination with his Rig The Deck to discard more weak cards, but then I realised that Handshake only reveals and doesn't actually discard the top card of the Fate Deck. Oops

6 minutes ago, Kevinsmith101 said:

Depends what you want to use the card for. If the attack is on a negative flip to hit the target you can put the removed from play card instead of either the first or 2nd, 3rd card etc being flipped. As you pick the lowest card for negative flips I would not bother cheating in a high card as anything less than that value is the card you have to pick use. However for the effect of gamble your life it's amazing because both players just flip the top card of the deck and no cheating is allowed negative flips have no impact. So I flip an 8 my opponent flips a 10. I use my previously out of play 12 and then flip for damage

 

side-note on the 1-1 no cheat flip to see who loses in your scenario: you don't first flip the card to see whether you win or not. You have to decide before ANY flips happen whether or not you're going to use that Ability or not as you're replacing your own flip with that card.

Regarding "A Friendly Handshae": if you target your own model, how does it work then? Since the revealing of the top card is at thesame timing, do you only reveal a single card? It would mean you could never damage friendly models, which I see as how it was probably intended. Had an argument over it after I've been playing it like that ever since it got introduced, so I thought I'd be safe and see here on how it's meant to be played.

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

for sure, and i'm agree with you, but you see, goryo have the same track of damages of 7 ss young nephilim.. there's something wrong! and we are talking always about 1 dmg (from bb or from venge) Young Nephilim, is a melee piece, he will need to approach to 1" to opponents to maximize its damage and exploit black blood.  Goryo can do the same thing.. but then, why not put on vengeance models better long range attacks? In order to exploit the vengeance more consistently?

The way I see it, it makes sense that Goryo is about thesame as Young Nephilim. Goryo is attainable a lot easier thanks to the summoning mechanic of Kirai. Goryo already is the best summon of Kirai by far and he already got nerfed in closed beta for good reason.

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

You're right , sorry, but that's exactly how it was. Moderate + high with critical. and 2 damages on bushwhacker. Here too, just think about this: if i had suffered just moderate + severe, anyway my goryo would remain only with 1 healt. It's a model that i pay 8 during deployment, and i need 11 of crow to summoning same price as ikiryo..

There are not many models that can survive 9 damage in a single activation. This doesn't highlight a weakness problem of Goryo. Your opponent just got lucky on hitting those high numbers. Most of the time, if your opponent doesn't Focus, he will be hitting min damage and your Goryo would be around a lot longer. Generally people Focus + 1 Attack against Kirai's crew, unless they already have built-in + on damage. Your opponent just got massively lucky and you can't blame a model dying against that. I will reiterate this, your opponent did 9 damage in a single Activation and that is A LOT of damage.

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

i use it exactly as you are advising me. but necessarily he needs a seishin near him and a card to survive, if he doesn't survive best part of healing effect go away. seishin remain, but they either, walk near other models to healing them back (in other models activation) or they use "guide the spirits". So you've already lost at least half of your potential.. cause let's face it, without healing the crew is doomed.

Why does he need a Seishin near him to survive? He's probably going to be standing near Kirai, which is one of the safest places to be. Kirai is your Commander and the rest of the Crew is the expendable army to fullfil her objectives. I also disagree that the crew is doomed without healing. Kirai is a master in attrition warfare thanks to Vengeance. You gain health advantages just by getting attacked. If your opponent can't kill more than 1 model per Turn, they will lose hard. Other summoners have this sort of way as well, but Kirai has this maxed out as she has automatic damage back even when attacked. Healing is just the cherry on top in order to maximize that effect.

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

can i ask you, what do you think.. if black blood and vengeance could be compared? (for me black blood is fine, and nephilim also) but maybe you will agree with me that  we are talking about one damage/on damage. their damage track is better than urami? It is true Urami give that damage also "from the other side of the world"  but they have good ranged attacks to keep distance from enemies? i say, if at least it was  exploitable this thing.. 

Can i ask you, how do you use Ikiryo? Do you make move her with seishin/datsue in first turn and in second do you use her for an alpha strike maybe? I imagine you have faced crew with models with terrifying and or htk or better htw models, did not you have any problem? Can you keep her alive? (with her stats and only 6 health)

These questions were not directed at me, but I'll shed some light on these. This would serve to give some more insight as to why I think the way I do about Kirai.

Both Black Blood and Vengeance have their strong and weak points.

Black Blood has a higher damage potential as it will always Trigger. It also splashes in 1" around, so any model in the thick of things will be soaking enemies in Black Blood splashes. It's a potential double-edged sword though, because it will also hurt all your own non-Black Blood models within 1". It deals no damage on enemies outside of that 1" range, which can make it outplayable.

Vengeance has a lower damage potential due to only hitting the model that targetted it. It only triggers if your model was specifically targetted by an Attack Action, which means shockwaves, blasts and the like will go right past it. However the range is unlimited, so you can't outplay it via outranging it.

I personally find Vengeance to be stronger than Black Blood as only specific types of Actions and Abilites can outplay Vengeance, while range is rather available to all crews without extra soulstone costs.

Regarding Ikiryo: my opponents mainly use her to tie up as many models as possible. If she dies, she just gets resummoned and Charges right back into the thick of things. If she can't reach there with a single AP, she can just do a Projected Voice of 10" range with a potential blast. Ikiryo is not there to do damage, but just to keep as many models engaged as possible. She's a tarpit trap with her low Defense as your opponent wastes precious AP on a model you can summon back anyway.

Ikiryo also has some very good Triggers. Puncture for +, Onslaught for the extra attack and Feast of Vengeance built-in so you can heal Kirai if you manage to kill with that Attack. Her damage is also irreducable, which could put some oomph in the attack. Hit Izamu with a moderate twice and he WILL focus on taking down that damaging model asap as he can't afford to have that happen again. But then you will steal an entire beater's Activation while it only costs 1 AP and a high card to just do that again ... and again ... and again.

I do realise severe cards are very limited to have in hand. You'll have to make some choices on where you spend them. It's thesame for all crews, but Kirai's choices are rather easy.

42 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

As bb but without range.. with the only difference that bb have a range.  pity that the worst model with the lowest cost with bb, it does same damages of kirai's best beaters... (goryo)

 

no for nothing: if you had read above, is it not very simple give out adversary.. generally attacks start from 5 on wp, and often needs a tome.

As already shown by some examples, datsue is one of worst damage  dealer henchman (and i have reported only examples with only other ressers henchman)

the problem is that her crew miss a min 3 models, more damages would be needed. As someone have been saying before me datsue and francis are excellent support models, yes the crew have also a good mobility... but what they support? they support each other.. 

 

and tell me please what are the other "broken" masters in game? because this discussion on only kirai goes on with you from closed beta..or better, from m2e.. i'm just curious.

 

So much so, that last night, my oppo after i've summoned one of them with kirai, soon after, he killed goryo with one bushwhacker with a medium and a high damage in just one activation, before i could activate it! 8 ss model with 7 healt! please... an eleven and a stone wasted.

 

 

Francis have 6 healt, wp 2 df 5. for give out adversary he needs a tome as others, for healing he needs a tn, for giving fast to a model he needs a crow, for save himself from any attack need to discard a card. are not instant things to doing imo.. No?

 

then guys a suggestion: try to improve your masters, instead that alway judge proposals of other players, in addition, before at least consider these suggestions..

 

i very much hope that @matt and @Kyle be able to take a look to this crew. because there are some things that need a little fix

You are underestimating the effect on Vengeance significantly. Black Blood is completely useless against ranged models, while Vengeance doesn't care about that at all. Certain model's melee range also outrange Black Blood, but nothing can outrange Vengeance.

Datsue Ba does NOT need more damage. She is very durable with Incorporeal, Terrifying AND Soulstone usage. She should not be able to die and be a constant thorn in your opponent's plan. Hell, Datsue Ba can even kill models from range if she gets the Tome Trigger for Adversery on her first attack. It pretty much guarantees a straight flip, and thus severe damage if you are willing to throw a severe card on it, on said model. 2/3/5 in a crew that has a lot of access to Adversery is already a very good track and there is no need to buff that even further.

And yes, Adversary is easy to get on this crew:

• Keep a high tome in hand or spend a stone with Datsue Ba
• an Urami model dies and splashes 2" with Adversary
• Once it's on a model, Kirai can make sure it stays on there

A Bushwhacker can't kill a Goryo with the damage you described, unless he got his Critical Strike off once OR flipped RJ on the severe dmage flip you mentioned. Bushwhacker has a 2/3/5 damage track, which translates to 1/2/4 against the Incorporeal Goryo, hence only 6 damage max. Even in such a scenario, he would still take 2 damage back. I'm still slightly amazed he managed to get a moderate AND a severe off in a single activation when both his attack and your defense have thesame stat. In general, that will not happen. There are plenty of models that would drop to such damage output, yet that does not make them weak at all.

Francis should be in the back, where he can't be targetted, unless you're going for offensive condition removal and/or handing out Adversary. The rest of the time he should be in the back safely healing models. This is made a lot easier in M3E as you can't Walk through engagement ranges anymore.

From what I can tell, you've been misplaying/forgetting the Incorporeal, making the models a lot squishier than they actually are. You also don't have a solid grasp on what the victory conditions are for certain crews and therefore can't play around said victory conditions. Kirai EXCELS when she can go blow-for-blow with opposing models thanks to Incorporeal and Vengeance. In those scenario's, Kirai should reign supreme. Yet somehow you are managing to lose in the perfect scenario's for Kirai?

Other summoners have the weakness of their models getting removed before being able to do anything, while Kirai's summons will at least deal damage back AND possible splash Adversary in such scenario's. I'd say that's plenty of value.

Complaining that an Incorporeal crew has no staying power seems rather ... counter-intuitive. Especially when they have Datsue Ba, an Incorporeal, Terrifying and Vengeance model with decent stats that can use Soulstones in a crew that has several Heals available.

Kirai's entire theme is punishing your opponent for every single move he makes and I find her to be one of the most broken masters in the game right now. Vengeance is one of the, if not the, strongest passive Ability in the game. Attacking her means you take Vengeance damage. Not attacking her means she, as a Summoner, can get her summons our safely. You will have a very bad time if you allow her to have 2 Goryo out as those things have an insane amount of damage. Also don't forget how easy it is for her crew to bring out the Adversary condition as it significantly ups the damage you do.

My main gripe with Kirai is that she has very little counter-play to her core mechanics and heavily punishes any mistake you make. She's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of master and I dislike all-round masters that are strong on ALL sides of the spectrum. Kirai's weakness are high damage indirect attacks such as Shockwaves, Pulses, Aura's, ... but the reality is that such mechanics are not as available as Kirai has access to screwing you over.

On a side-note, I don't understand the hate Datsue Ba gets. She is durable, deals a decent amount of damage, has a good ranged damage Attack and can allow other Urami to take a Walk Action.

Francis is also fine as he is right now, he already got buffed and I still think that wasn't necessary. He's a 6 stone support model, which can both heal and dispell Conditions. He also has the option of going semi-offensive by putting Adversary on an enemy model, which means that model is not long for this world anymore.

I seriously don't understand all this complaining about Kirai's crew being weak. She's one of the most well-rounded, NPE, strongest crews in the game right now and you're still calling her weak? I've said it time and time again: there is a massive L2P issue going on right now. Even in M2E people were defending the most broken picks just so their precious instawin master didn't get nerfed and I'd like to avoid getting to the instawin point in the first place. Comparing Kirai to other summoners already shows how strong she is right now and how far ahead of the curve she is. Are you seriously asking to buff the strongest Summoner in the game even more?

Francis has been an MVP in the games I've played against Kirai. Kirai summons a Goryo and he removes Slow and gives Fast. A first and second Turn 3 AP Goryo is very scary. He'll be in range to attack whatever he wants with at least 2 AP on Turn 1. 3 AP is possible if you are within 10" of the Goryo and he can get his Free Action Trigger for the palce off.

Using Francis solely for topping up Kirai is a major waste of his potential as he's meant to make the crew even more attrition-heavy due to heals and condition removal.