Filox

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

just give ice golem laugh off, he will be good

Laugh Off does not help much, true you won't be pushed away, but you still won't gain much distance, making him able to fight turn 3+ (2 if you enemy seeks fight with him, or if you bringed Snowstorm to push him up). Ice Path on him with a Sudden Strike trigger would help a lot, and still it would be less oppressive then Ride the Rails and Off the Rails on Metal Golem. If those changes would be applied, his threat range would be 8" + 4" + 1" with 2 attacks or 8" + 1" with 3 attacks. Is it broken (if nothing else would change on his card), I don't know. My judgement may be clouded by Ride the Rails which I think is OP as heck ability.

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So ironically maybe Ice Golem should be fixed to...

• Drop armor 2 to 1.
• Increase defense to 5
• Drop bonus action
• Give new bonus action: one with the ice

One with the ice: Can only be used when in base contact with an ice pillar. Target an ice pillar within X inches. Do something cool.

Do something cool could be:

• Place into base contact with the new ice pillar (I don't like just using movement buffs to fix models though).
• Grab a model near the far ice pillar, and place it in base contact with the close ice pillar.
• Can attack through the ice pillar.
• Make is so the ice pillar loses destructible until the end phase (this would possibly be too broken).
• Etc.

Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I think the idea that he inteacts with Ice Pillars is neat. Would aplly this school of thought to entire December. Ice pillars then could be then just little more then range incrase and some blocking markers. Possibilities are endless, just need to ask Wyrd really nice tho 😂

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I can definitely agree with this. The Whiskey Golem is an absolute beast, until he runs into Mad Dog and is deleted in a single activation.

He can at least put out a fight with Df 6 and Beer Googles unlike Ice Golem 

By the way, Wyrd could do a potcast or interviews with players, rule/model makers about current meta, tiers and how they plan to work around them or directly with them. 

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree, but this I'd like to see addressed a bit by Gaining Grounds as well.

For instance, what if you had a turf war/leylines set of markers, but instead of doing anything to them you just need a model standing by each.

Suddenly having a nigh-unkillable model to plonk on the centre with a hazardous aura becomes reasonably strong. More ways to score with these slow 'bulldozer' types of models would be nice.

Yeah, but in current crew building mechanic you Can easily deal with Ice Golem. Just Analyze Weakness him and he is pretty much dead in 2-3 activasions (including heal from Silent One) him being only armor +2 with low Df and low mobility makes him to easy to pick off in the meantime or avoid completly

By the way, If wyrd is scared of 21" Of 6 winter strike, reduce its range to 8" making Raspy a. Total of 17" range on attack and adding some more trigger or remove discard from Ice Mirrors. 

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For me it is more about claiming territory than actually dealing damage with it. If the ice golem uses the ability, it gets very hard to score (or deny) claim jump & leave your mark.

So I think it is more a zone control tool than a damage tool.

That said, it always seems a bit lacklustre when I face it, but also I have only played Molly against Rasputina, which is a terrible, terrible matchup for the December crew.

One of the problems for tough offensive models is low mobility. For me 10SS models should be game changers if played correctly. But, there is also a lot of counters to them, way too many. Every big model has ability to move around which is important to not waste 10SS for walking for 3 turns and hit once (especially in mobility meta). Most of those models can also rely mostly on themself with little help from crew to get job done. In Raspa, you have to build around him just for sake to małe value out of him, which leaves us at low value gain from supporting models. 

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I think you have missed the potential value of hazardous aura that does 2 damage. If you can get the golem into enemies, that is brutal. The trick is getting him to be able to use it. But the dream is probably charge into the enemy, hit 2 models for 5/6/8 then put them all in hazardous2 auras.

I love dreams, but it's exactly the same when You blast 5 models for 3/4. Results are the same, blasts are easier to do. 

Well, if you Invest Snowstorm, Silent One or two and Upgrade you should get smth. But you Can do it on any HH and you will gain the same. Problem with Ice Golem that I have, is that he is lacking in many aspects to other Golem. Okay, we can Do Hazardous but what do we have to proc it? Raspa blasts and Blessed & Snowstorm melee... 

Metal Golem also has Hazardous which can go on a trigger and gives him concealing. He can push enemy models + your crew has Many pushes as well. To. Top it off he has 19" Threat range

Okay, I saw some nice clash of opinions, that what I wanted and it's nice we did not jumped to our throats! So, summing up what I read in questions to you all:

Is 6 potential attacks (range around 22") for 2 with cost of: 3 discarded cards + cheats/stone for triggers + duel cheats is strong on master right now? I think it's absurdly stupid, same as LJ 7 attacks.

Piano vs Ice Pillar is also nice clash of mechanics. They use is to block movement and increase AP cost of models who want to move thru them. I see Piano marker being more compatible with Infamous then Ice Pillar with December. Mostly because Zipp ignores cover from them and has flight so he can just go thru them. Rasputina gains range but her damage abilities are weakend by Ice Pillars. Also as @4thstringersaid about threat range. Problem with this is this one, you can easily try and shoot the enemy but hitting enemies on Cover or Concealment is not good idea for master actions. You are going from 6v5 to 6v6 with neg on damage. This is why you probably still gonna just Freeze Over 2-3 times also triggers for this action is much easier to get, mostly because you can top it with low mask and discard card. It's the same as you cheated the duel to gain trigger. Onslaught is nice trigger, but only on models which deals big damage with it with high stat (Francisco for example). But personally, I'm not sure if Onslaught should even be on Rasputina. We cannot buff her main attack action too much, because of it. We cannot change Freeze Over because of the same sake.

Idea with if this model is a Crew Leader, this model can... is nice. Would reward Raspa crew at least a little bit. Although someone mentioned playing with crew is not rewarding, and I think too. The sacrifice do December is useless because models which have it does not kill. Raspa is all about burning actions with Freeze Over and Ice Pillars. Silent Ones job is to heal and make more Ice Pillar. Snowstorm cannot kill with Shockwaves to make reliable ability to generate SS. In melee he is way too weak. Acolyte of December is way too techy and underpowered to be used as killer on battlefield. Overall this ability does not work in entire crew. 

Also, Ice Golem is weakest of all Golems in AR. He is slowest from them all (them being Fire, Grave, Metal and Whiskey). Fire Golem having tactical to just place itself on the enemy. Grave Golem hacing better walk and a lot of abilities to push him around from all over RR, Metal having Ride the Rails and Off the rails which is better charge which just goes off. Whiskey having nimble. He has the worst toughness from them all. Fire Golem can spend Burning for damage reduction up to +2 (a little worse armor) but better Df and almost infinity generations of Burning. Grave Golem just don't dies. Metal has armor +2 and better Df, ability to generate Shielded. Whiskey better stats, same armor and beer goggles ffs. As damage goes he is okay if you are attacking enemy model with slow and you have Ice Pillar next to you. It all comes to 3x 5/6/8 damage. Overall let's say 15 and 24 damage values for him. Fire Golem goes from 3/4/5 x2 + burning so in the end we have 7 to 11 damage. Grave Golem goes for 3/4/6 x2 so in total we have 6 and 12. Metal has 6 + 2(from Mv duel) to 12 + 2 + Vent Steam. Whiskey Golem goes for 6 + 2 (from poison, if you go for onslaught we have 12) to 24 damage with a walk to spare :P. So in total:

• Ice Golem 15 - 24 + heal from Ice Pillars
• Fire Golem 7 - 13 + place in 8"
• Metal Golem 8 - 14 + Vent Steam + Shielded +2
• Grave Golem 6 - 12 + heal(for 1 or 2 but we are saying that was they star turn)
• Whiskey Golem 12 - 24 + Walk

From everything what I listed here and how I look at them. Ice Golem does not even has highest damage value from all golems, same goes for toughness, mobility, problemality and etc.

I rarely play with more then 15 SS OOK so nothing changes for me in this one, thou can't participate. Exams are coming 😕

42 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

What about giving them Tundra Hunter? At worst it lets you negate the Cover, but if you set up properly you get a benefit. I wouldnt want the harpoon push to ignore Ice Pillars, I think its intential they stop at them so they are within 1" of them. The Harpooners have a cool Lead the Target trigger, maybe that would be good here as well? 

I love the idea! 

8 minutes ago, touchdown said:

@Filox
the main ability and the trigger are separate sources of healing (it doesn't say the target heals +1). So survivalist would process off both.

You are right, if there were only italic text which stopped Hoffman from equiping it on Peacekeeper 🤣

But, to be precise. Yes you are right, although we can just change wording on a trigger to increase heal by 1 instead healing model by another 1. 

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

b) Change it to "discard a card or spend a Soulstone" in general (aka for Silent Ones)( to prevent unnecessary power creep for Silent Ones and generate some synergies within keyword (see Sacrifice to December)

You won't be spending Soulstone for mutilate( or Chill just to declare it, 2SS to use mediocre trigger? It would make Rasputina even more relying on Freeze Over) and right now you don't even want to attack with it. They are mostly healers and and Ice Pillars generators.

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

Snow Storm is generally fine. I only wish he had some kind of defense. I'd recommend adding Ice Shield and then he is just fine. 

Snowstorm is definitely not fine right now, for 1 SS more and being Henchman he is offering even less then Blessed of December. 

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

I also see the need for a small buff for December Acolytes. I guess a Def Trigger should do the job. Something like "Df : End the Activation of the attacking model"

Too OP, Squel would be better.

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

I'd aim for just giving the Ice Golem Ice Path with the Sudden Strike Trigger. It's totally in line with the Keyword and the theme and it costs a precious action from our most important beater and it most often costs you a card. Thus, ressource management still is an issue.

Interesting idea, but being able to push for 8", do simple duel and then hit your opponent for low ram is kinda too strong.

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

Oh, hell, yeah. Friendly Fire. It's the main reason for me only rarely bringing December Acolytes: Spending 7 on a minion who only shoots once during the whole game without having to spend a good ton of ressources.  Please, pretty please, Wyrd, give something to the Ice Gamins and Ice Golem which negates Friendly Fire. Something similar to Sonnia's Witchlings comes to mind: Child of December: Friendly December models ignore this model for the purposes of Friendly Fire. 

Said exactly the same, just add to Ice Mirror that you ignore friendly models with Demise Frozen Heart for purposes of FF)

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

Variant A: Raspi can summon an Ice Gamin on Trigger on Ice Pillars: Unexpected Gamin: Summon an Ice Gamin with Slow in base contact to one of the Markers created by this action, then remove that Marker.

This is situational as you usually should be better off with another Ice Pillar. Also, the summon costs reasonable ressource (card or stone). I can see going for 1 Summons per game, maybe 2 every other game.

Variant B: Raspi can summon an Ice Gamin on Trigger on Freeze Over:  Frozen Soul: If any enemy model is killed by damage from this action, Summon an Ice Gamin with Slow in based contact with this killed model, which does not drop any Markers. 

This also is very situational and shouldn't result in more than 1 or very rarely 2 summons every other game.

Variant is exactly the same what I said. Variant B is useless 'cause Rasputina never kills. Her job is to slow down advance of enemy crew so you can set up and counter attack at the right moment, or just let your scheme runners run next to enemy to do their job. 

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

A general solution for Raspi could also be adding a reliable source for Focus (Trigger on Ice Tornado?). 

Or adding some card draw. 

I think Rasputinas general theme was to remove resources from the enemy while keeping some for you (You know, they are poor) and then use your small resources to outvalue your opponent, not to just rush hand size (This is Youko thing). But getting free focus as freebie from Wendigo seems nice. 

9 hours ago, touchdown said:

I'm not sure a faction with Hoffman needs access to survivalist. You're turning welding torch from healing 3 to healing 5.

I think you mean 4, but I know what you had in mind. It's true that his healing would increase on 1-2 model s "probably" Peacekeeper, Joss and Howard. But right now, Hoffman is using almost none of this upgrades. Is taking upgrade for 2 SS only for Survivalist is worth it (having Armor beyond 2 is not very efficient). My guess would be sometimes if you know enemy can bring serious AP damage or Analyze Weakness, though it could shift meta in Hoffman a little bit at least. Not just spamming 2x Hunter, 2x Watcher and Heavy Beaters with slight variations. Of course maybe Survivalist and Pursue are equally bad options to bring on LLC, though it must be remember we want to get rid of stupid Phiona overperforming tank tech and do not make upgrade itself unplayable like Wanted Criminal. By the way, you can not slap LLC into only construct models, we can keep Hoff in check with this.

55 minutes ago, belorey said:

I'm agree but then they should change most of the Guild masters because they look designed to spend 2ss on LLC.

Well, If LLC would be changed we could see some buffs for models which run it all the time. Thou some changes would be required, we can minimalize them for particular encounters by bringing Laugh Off on different upgrade. Survivalist on the other hand would buff LJ, Judge, Jonathan mostly, we could still see them wearing No Prisoners for special cases, as I think should be the cases from the begging. By the way, as personal opinion I would like too see new upgrades releases in next expansion.  Particularly I would like to see something like "Poisoned Weapons: This model  action apply poison +1." it would be nice anti Hard to Kill tech for GU, which we especially lack off. But this is not a thread for this kind of discussion.

So, most us are aware what does it and how must have this upgrade is in current Guild meta, every crew besides Hoffman's run it in almost every crew. But to those who don't know what does it do here it goes. For 2SS we get Armor +1 and Laugh Off. Minions also gain Hunker Down which if model did not moved during it's activation it gains Shielded +2. So, as minion part is not important, but the Armor +1 and Laugh Off are big bois here. This upgrade is supreme in every aspect to the other defensive ups in game. Being able to reduce every damage by 1, most of the time making it only 1 damage, but also protects wearer from cheeky Lures and other mispositioning attacks on the enemy. Overall this upgrade is just supreme defensive tech against everything (I personally run both copies 90% of the time, and it doesn't matter who I play against). But, this upgrade unfortunately brakes Guild itself. A lot of models looks like they design with this UP on, making half the big bois in GU not tough enough, and some too tough with/out LLC. Like Agent 46, Phiona Gage, Judge, LJ, Jonathan etc.

No Prisoners is good example of mostly terrible upgrade, which is not worth taking 'cause most of the pulses, shockwaves and blasts deal 2+ damage. Hazardous terrains comes most of the time with condition which is the main part of it (Pyre Marker, Pit Trap etc.). Push for 2" and heal of 1 damage when killing is truly a bad ability. Most models for killing can draw card, gain soul stone or fast. Minions also gains ability to throw friendly model within 2" to enemy they just attacked within 8" for discarding a card. Personally I've tested 2 times and never again. This upgrade requires too much set up and most of the times 2 cards to make it work (1 for attack, 1 for ability to trigger), making it in my opinion 3-4 times worse upgrade then LLC.

Expert Marksman is okay upgrade, although he gains value on 4 models. Sonnia, Dashel, Nino and Lone Marshal. Only minions who can get any value from this up is Monster Hunter, Sergeant and Spelleater. I won't be talking about it too much 'cause this upgrade is still playable, or at least it does not haver sibling who your mother always praises and compares you to.

So, right now possible changes. Let's start with dethroning the king.

Lead-Lined Coat changes:
- remove Laugh Off
- instead of Laugh Off add one abilities below:

• Pursue (not sure about it, might be to broken, thou it would help Dita and Sonnia being more fearful master)
• Bring It! (ability which Good Old Boys have)
• Survivalist

No Prisoner changes:
- upgrade Riot Gear to not being able to get condition from the same source he reduces damag (make it free or for discard, no idea how OP it would be, second option is to make trigger you has to reduce damage to 0 to do not gain condition, no damaging pulses just has no effect on it then)
- change On the Prowl for Laugh Off

I would personally tried to change "Catch Them!" but it's not important right now. Those changes would dethrone Lead-Lined Coat as supreme defensive upgrade in entire game (also nerfs Phiona Gage combo which is absurdly strong for SS resource required to pull this off) and bring No Prisoners as viable tech piece against crews like Colette, Nekima, Wong etc. and we would finally see something more than LLC all day long.

So, here are my thoughts, what are yours? Do you think that I see the problem with as it is or am I missing something? Waiting for your opinions how would you fix this current problem.

Sonnia needs his Rider. That is for sure. If you are fighting against heavy armor crews (Augmented, Foundry etc.) You take Expert Marskman and Phiona with LLC. If not, you don't have to take her. Just slap LLC for Sonnia and Rider and you are good to go. Guild Steward is must have. Then, just add one Handler and Spelleater. The rest is up to. I run those 2 lists.

Against Armor Crews:
SS: 5
Sonnia with Expert Marskman
PF
Pale Rider
Phiona with LLC
Spelleater
Handler
Guild Steward

Against other crews

SS: 5

Sonnia with LLC 
PF
Pale Rider with LLC
Spelleater x2
Handler
Steward
Sanctioned Spellcaster

Added Part 2, please speak what are your thoughts about those one and speak up if you have better or different takes on those problems.

35 minutes ago, Harlekin said:

In general, I always enjoy bringing December crew to the table, even though I don't really win regularly.

I also really like to play them, best theme in entire AR in my opinion, but damn winning with them is hard. Their toolbox is lacking, best models are OOK, December has none of crew abilities and is best model (he is not even OP model, he is average). Entire crew is not fast, not tough and especially not scheme makers. Strange toolbox with strange models with strange abilities.

6 minutes ago, Euryale said:

Also, does anyone find it a bit ironic (and sad) that the best model in December (the Blessed) has the least interaction with the rules in December?  

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

But changes to him will also affect Explorers Frontier crews, and Arcanist and Neverborn Chimera crews, so they ought to be considered. And they do all get a much better use of Scent of Blood than guild (although now there is the sand worm it does go up in value in guild Frontier lists now). 

I don't think Favorable Terrain or Unimpeded will break him any way in either of this crews. For now he is not even picked that often in Marcus lists where he should shine the most. The problem with this model except being only slow human model in those keyword, but also not presenting enough value for 6SS. Order Initiates are more useful then him. In ES I don't think he gonna be broken either, even with Sand Worm and Malisarus Rex next to him.

@AdranThe fact that he is the only one in Basse Crew that comes without ignoring severe terrain, and is lacking in power level, also being the same cost as Pathfinder makes him a bad option most of the time. If someone is making crew for Basse, in Guild at least we are not taking value from much of his abilities and he does not summon Clockwork Traps

Guess everybody lost interest in this thread...

Just saw takes on If this model is a Leader boost this, I think they are fine for Dita to boost Bravado in keyword, although Pine Boxes should fixed in themselves to consider it a valuable and consistent tech option in and OOK, and then boosted to make a crew around them, like (2x Rectuiter, Jury etc.).