Flint

Why not getting access to free bread trough access of knowledge? That's presuming what symbol could mean and goal behind the book can be anything in that way. For me looks like pursuing forbidden knowledge is the main goal. Much more clear. You wrote a lot about struggle for woman empowerment but this world doesn't look like women were heavily oppressed. They can be leaders, heavy duty workers, academics, journalists, entrepreneurs etc. Colette is oppressed by Ramos in the same way he is (probably) oppressing pub owners (mafia like). Rasputina was fugitive because of her crimes in the past, not because she is a woman (later added to crimes wielding arcane powers). Women seems to be rather equal in Mfx. Maybe with exception of not being allowed to be obese (and I am not talking about heavy weighted Johanna-class women, Executioner male-female is very good example). There is universal oppression: those with power oppress those without, doesn't matter what gender on both sides. By the way, wasn't that topic about something else ?

Really? I always thought that it's about forbidden arcane powers/knowledge - faction name and symbol...

You can find some avatars in this shop http://www.miniaturicum.de/index.php?cPath=1499_1502

I am not a big fan of new artworks. They are too static and have comic book style simplicity. And sometimes just ugly. For the first time I do not even consider buying nightmare edition crew (and I like cats). Looks like the only thing I will buy from this wave will be upgrade cards.

No weakness to exploit? Just cancel her df triggers and then even guild guard can kill her in one activation.

I am using 2 performers + one mannequin. That helps me set up markers perimeter on 1st turn - activate mannequin, activate Magician's Assistant, activate 1st performer move + grab mannequin with Mechanical adorations, throw markers(s), activate 2nd performer, move, push mannequin into base contact again, throw marker(s). Also Angelica can use Give Them an Encore to position mannequin in position to assist another model with placing markers. When base contacting mannequin I am (if enemy models nearby) placing him to cover fragile showgirls.

Statement was that every ability requires setting things up. This was to compare not effects but amount of preparations. About All together now, indeed I missed Your ideas using it with Miners, sorry for that.

For activation control I am trying to have all three doves in 2nd turn.

Ad 1 Will You compare amount of preparations required for using for example Wicked Wines with All Together Now? And even markers spamming, which I believe I already said, but seems that nobody of You read so here it goes again: 0 actions for dropping marker but requires distance 4" from another, so You need to move or use mannequin - hire mannequin, activate mannequin, activate mannequin's ability, survive with mannequin until another activation and so on. Slightly different than just go in range and use ability.Besides how many markers can You really throw in Colette's 8' bubble? Remember about 4" distance of each other and keep in mind that throwing markers behind is mostly useless. Ad 2 At least it is not a free SS any more... Ok, free suit BUT it is still under condition: You need to have at least 1 SS left. If there happen that You will need to use all SS early in the game this ability is gone. AD 3 Never said that Prompt is useless now so this argument cannot be invalid since there never was one. I already wrote what could make it more balanced: reduce multiple prompt to showgirls only (single prompt per turn for any other models). Since when Colette has free dove every turn? Is that ability printed on card and then it's cost is 0? Does it not require spending AP? Does it not require quite high card and suit? Do Colette has free suits anytime without any conditions to summon doves? Prompt was overused because it was easiest and most versatile ability Colette had. Other Abilities are too situational and/or resource draining. It is as simple as that. Comparing Prompt and Obey is pretty much pointless since these abilities are different: Obey may be cast on enemy models as well. Prompt is limited to friendlies only. Why prompting Coryphee is worse than Langston? Everybody were complaining about Langston prompt, not Coryphee prompt. There must be reason why. Maybe because Coryphee is a disruptor and not a killer (no abilites that could ignore Hard To Wound, Hard to Kill etc). Maybe because it's quite fragile - conditions kills Coryphee quite easily, 7 wd for 14SS model... Your last phrases are quite sad, it states: who am I to discuss. Sounds like I should shut up and agree with elder and smarter. That's the reason of forum existence, isn't it? Why instead You give me some ideas how to utilize effectively other abilities considering it's high cost in SS, AP, high cards and suits? That would work so much better than calling on experienced players authority. Also telling that some argument is invalid does not make it invalid. Proving it does.

Now You see me Requires suffering damage = loose duel. You cannot use df triggers when choosing to loose duel (small manual p.27).

Multipost, please remove

Multipost, please remove

It is quite unfair to talk about statistics without percentage. Please show some numbers/graphs, anything that gives us broader view on that. Right now it looks like 7 is almost certain and 2 or 12 is almost impossible. Ad.1 I already wrote about that, it is nice in theory, in fact You need to set things up to use it. Check one of my previous posts. Ad.2 It's not a free soulstone but 1 free suit, and can be used ONLY if You have at least 1SS. Ad. 3 That requires SS (which are limited as You mentioned) for buying this upgrade, card at least 8 and diamond suit. Resource draining stuff. Dove have only one action after summonig. Doeasn't matter how many doves You summoned, only one will chain activate. Maybe the reason that prompt was overused was because other actions required plenty of set up and didn't pay off so well? Anyway Colette was Cuddled, she received nothing that could make her other actions more versatile or less resource draining. If You are happy that now Colette will require from You more thining then please play lowering her Df and Wp to 4 and remove all built-in suits. That will give You even more thinking and makes so much better players. If everything is because Howard Lagston then maybe Langston is too powerful? It would be enoug to change it to: A model OTHER THAN SHOWGIRL may be targeted by this action only once per turn.

If there are players who just want to beat opponent crews and nothing more then no amount limitations of Colette will change their mind. They will switch to another master and will keep beating other crews with another masters, ruining other players games. The answer to that is learn how to beat boring player and as You said it is possible. Then they will see their beating tactics (with any master) do not work and change it to something more effective, more finesse maybe (which could be requirement for winning game). You keep ignoring what I am saying all the time: prompt is the only master class action Colette has. You did not show me any other versatile action that can be usable most of the game. Not on her card, surely. Disappearing Act looks nice at first glance long range and middle card required , but after taking a closer look You'll see that there is Scheme Marker required, somebody must be there to place it first (6" max range with mannequin after using Magicians Assistant). Opponent must not see this coming or he sees that and decide that it is not worth to react or he can prepare suitable welcome comitee there. Setup required, not versatile, limited, predictable. So You need to buy upgrades (spend precious SS). There are some actions which are mostly situational - requires setup (easily predictable then by opponent) or high cards and suits. So heavily resource draining - limiting player in use. Colette has ONE free soulstone, or rather one free suit to add (no other options to spend that free SS) as long as You HAVE at least one. And Colette need suit for summon, defensive or cast purposes. Colette is now forced to focus on scheme markers dropping/using. Looks more finesse. Problem is that kind of game requires much more effort than for other masters to counter it (masters, not necessarily players). If You spend three turn setting things up it may be already too late to use it because opponent already has enough VP. Imagine chess game. White side is without queen. White side player is now beneficial because he will learn more finesse tactics to beat enemy, not just another easy win with the brutal equality of forces. He will learn to think more and be a better player.

Since when arcanists masters (or puppeteers and constructionists) cannot hire Mannequin? Maybe You meant Doves?

Just a few things to clarify What make You so sure that players who switch to another after being beat will "learn the more complex parts of Colette's game" after limiting prompt instead of switching to another master again?

It was not necessary. Spooky_Squirrel said that he won easily against boring "Howard Langston players". Being beaten is good reason to use more sophisticated tactics than 3prompt-beater all the time.

I understand that (still do not agree it was necessary). I do not understand all talking that she has more options now than before, because she did not get anything that she hasn't before.

Yes, Colette is weaker because now with restricted choice player is more predictable. You cannot make player less predictable if he has more choices.

Looks like I will be repeating myself again... Yest that's her only master class ACTION she can do. Now let's take a look on her passive buff. Yup, looks powerful at first glance but it is restricted to showgirls and minions. Showgirls are rarely beaters (even Coryphee are more disruptors than killers) so this restricts player to use rather not so killy crew if he/she wants to spam the table with markers. If player want's to bring heavy beaters like Joss, he/she will be restricted in use of scheme markers (not so many on the table) and that all this powerful buff suddenly is not much worth. By seeing these beaters You can predict Colette's player tactics, and therefore she is not so powerful even if she use prompt three times on same target. With not so many scheme markers, actions like All Together Now or Disapperaing Act or any other that uses markers, are not powerful, versatile and easy achievable. That's quite a restriction but also a player's choice. With many minions/showgirls can put quite some scheme markers around but single minion/showgirl cannot just drop three markers on single activation. Rules states clearly that another marker must be more than 4" away. So that forces spending AP for walk. And even then placing markers might not be possible/convenient because of terrain, enemy models etc. Of course You can use Mannequin but he is not for free any more. Also Even if he is on table You still cannot throw markers just like that, mannequin must spend one action for Magician's Assistant. Then You can throw markers in 6" distance BUT again there is restriction to it: friendly model must be within 2" distance to mannequin. Now, how many models would You like to group together? 2? 3? Looks like great target for Sonnia or anyone with blast template. Also that means you will keep your crew together in one place only to use markers throwing. Sure, You can hire another mannequin. And that's another 4ss. And still this 4" bubble distance between markers is quite big. Any player who played her box crew knows restrictions and are aware that it is not so easy to throw markers everywhere. And there is Prompt, which i used very often for same Performer beacause that model was in position to drop marker and use that marker against enemy. Opponents know Seduction action is ant therefore do not hurry to end their model's activation near it. Prompting twice (or more) same performer which was in right position often surprised my opponents which do not expected that this little minion could be so dangerous. Now it's gone. Because Howard Langston (didn't You told that was predictable and easily beaten by You? if so it is not so powerful and do not need to be limited). As said before, mannequin (4ss) required which was already activated and spent action for Magician's Assistant. Unless You run just next to enemy model (AP spent + manipulative do not protect anymore) and then throw marker.

I have this limited edition Mah Tucket card and I would like to trade it for LE Colette card or LE Lady J card. I also have some cards for trade (not LE) from wave 2, arcanists, ressers, guild, outcasts. There's list of some of them: Jack Daw + upgrades The Guilty x3 Montresor Lady Ligeia Hamelin +upgrades Nix Obedient Wretch Rat Catcher x2 Malifaux Rat x4 Rat King x3 The Stolen x3 Ashes and Dust Ashen Core Dust Storm Freikorps Librarian x3 Freikorps Trapper x2 Lazarus Ama No Zako Strongarm Suit Vanessa Leveticus +upgrades Rusty Alice Hollow Waif x3 Abomionation x4 Desolation Engine Malifaux Child Bishop Johan Hans Desperate Mercenary Von Schill + upgrades Hannah Steamtrunk Freikorpsmann x3 Freikorps Specialist Tara Karina Void Wretch x3 Nothing Beast Ironsides +upgrades Oxfordian Mage x3 Mouse Coryphee x2 Coryphee Duet Mannequin Kaeris x2 + upgrades Firestarter Eternal Flame Gunsmith x3 Large Arachnids x3 Malifaux Raptor x4 Silent One x3 Snow Storm Soulstone miner x3 The Captain Blessed of December Slate Ridge Mauler x2 Union Miner x4 Willie Arcane Effigy Mobile Toolkit Ramos + upgrades Joss If You need info about other cards just PM me please. I am looking for Colette, Lady J or Viks cards.

Right now it is easier to predict than before, just because one of the options (Prompting 2nd tie same target) is disabled. Using soulstones is available for all masters, so it doesn't make her better or worse. Thing is that she does not have passive df abilities (Armor, Hard to Kill etc.) or large amount of Wd, or any aggresive actions that would deter potential attackers. It's still unrestricted 12" bubble, many scheme runners will think before going into that. Pushing affected by Vines cost 3dmg, might be quite a lot for scheme runners. And retaliation, if Lilith survives, is scary. Please show me the post where I wrote that Prompt is the only thing she has to offer. I wrote that this is the only master-class action she can do. Please answer a question: if she gained so much unpredictability and things to do then she could not do that before Prompt limit. Yes or no? I am happy with Your success in competitive games without prompting same target many times, and Your wins against "multiprompters" and monobuilds. That means this is not such powerful combo as everybody describes and do not need limiting. Prompt use limit makes Colette more predictable, opponent knows that one of the possible options is now out. It is different thing than predictable player. It is the players problem that they stuck with same "multiprompting" tactics, they will be easily predicted, easily beaten and will learn that it do not work any more. Then they will learn other stuff Colette can do. Well, this is the two different ways to achieve such thing like player growth, avoiding stagnation and introducing more variations in games. One is when players will see their results (beaten again because he was so obvious) and develop this internal feeling and will to improve. That usually comes with enthusiasm and happiness when discovering new things by themselves . Other way is to force him to is: You Will change your playstyle or else... And this is for Greater Good! Maybe the problem is on the other side. Maybe other players do not know how to deal with monobuilders and do not want to learn it expecting that the rules will change to their favour without making any effort to improve their playstyle?

Beefy beater can surprise Colette using her own scheme markers, like Executioners do. They are killy and df triggers cancellers (overall: very ani-Colette). Or Vicent St. Claire can shoot her with help of Light in the end. By the way: can she cast Disappearing Act on herself (if she survive attacker's action of course, she's quite fragile without df triggers)? Setting stage for All Together Now might be easily read by opponent, and with wave 4 models all these scheme markers can be a trap for Colette herself. Old Prompt, even if obvious, is still dangerous. It's nice that You mentioned Lilith, so let's compare the ladies. Besides Broadsword attack, Lilith has Vines that can stop scheme runners within everywhere 12" (no LoS required). Shadows can be used to place own crew within 6" for offensive or blocking purposes within 12" (again no LoS required). What has Colette without Prompt? Disappearing Act, range 3 for own crew (how many own models do You keep within 3"?), range 14" LoS required... Prompt is the only master-class action Colette has, that's why limiting it hurts so badly. And please do not try to convince anyone that limiting Prompt is beneficial to her. It gives nothing in exchange.

About markers and Miners: it is still situational, and intentions might be quite clear for opponent. This action will be used once per game anyway. Please clarify: target for prompt needs LoS? if yes then it needs to be used on very empty table. Rarely your 10" bubble has no LoS restrictions. Please also see the difference between limited Colette (by limiting prompt) and limited player (3xprompt on Langston, even if other options available). I know about playing for VP, so since Colette was never very killy master it was always about manoeuvrability. Now it is restricted for her.

It's not about amount of scheme markers but position where are placed. Very rarely markers will be so close (1") from required models, unless You play very defensive game which is situational. So far I see that prompt was limited because Howard Langston. I never used Howard Langston in my games and do not intend to, I am trying to point out that prompt limit may badly affect gameplay, especially when we are still looking for other interesting and versatile actions Colette could do. Limited prompt may also mean change of tactics for Colette since she will has to keep more of her crew near her, less scheme grabbers, less flanking actions etc.