The Godlyness

This one is going to be hard. Collette and Cassandra are your only 2 models left. Lucky for you your opponent also has only 2 models left. Unlucky for you is that you need to kill both models and Cassy has already activated. But both of the enemy has activated. Stipulations Colette has any upgrade she wants. All movement or push or place effects can move up to max allowance. You have scheme markers where ever you want them. Both enemy models have 6 wounds All damage flipped is weak You win all duels. Can declare any trigger You want. Model A and Model B are both standing on the center line. Cassy is 4 1/2" away from Model A. And on its east side but 1 1/2 south of the center line. Cassy is 11" away from Model B. Collette is 5" away from Model A and south west, Collette is 9" away from Model B Your objective is to kill both models in Collettes activation. This is the last activation. Go forth and do it.

Well yes. Bonus for you then. Kill the model and get three eye markers.

1) Final Debt (Ca 7 / TN: 11 / Rst: Df / Rg 10): Target model with the Brilliance Characteristic suffers an amount of damage equal to the number of cards in this model’s controller's hand. There now every one knows what it does. Myrra is correct. It does not say target a model with brilliance. If it did then it would take damage. But as written as Myrra has stated the new target (sidir) does not have brilliance so would take no damage. That single "A" changes how it works.

Not actually talking about that as that doesn't play out in this scenario at all. @rgar care to elaborate on how you came to your conclusion. All I am asking for details on why people believe what they do. Not just an answer of. That model.

Taelor discard oath keeper 0 action welcome to malifaux Wack ashes 3 times. Charge the ashen core triggering ignore armor on both strikes.

So for some fun and for Food for thought. I am going to post a scenario and I you yes you to solve it. This one is simple. Coppelius is engaged with a model that if he does not kill in this single activation you lose the game. Stipulations. You win all duels and you can choose any trigger. Coppelius always flips weak damage The enemy model has 4 wounds. Your first damage flip is a black joker. Explain how you kill the model go.

Jacob declared a legal target (McCabe) after that sidir uses by my side. And according to his ability he is the new target. Brillance or not he is the target. But since he does not have brilliance he takes no damage. (See below)

Please elaborate on how you arrived to your conclusion.

Things you need to know before answering. "When" abilities and triggers happen during step 5 "After" abilities and triggers happen after step 5 General timing box is on page 46 Please don't try and debate those statements. Killjoy is at 2 wounds in base to base with an ice gamin and both are in base to base with a model with black blood. The ice gamin is also at 2 wounds. Killjoy declares an attack vs the model with black blood. He wins the duel and declares onslaught as his trigger. On the damage flip red jokers it and kills the model with black blood. Onslaught triggers. Killjoy once again wins his duel and flips non black joker for damage. What is the first model that is removed as killed. I really want to know how many different responses come up. Please explain why you chose what ever model when answering.

And I am back. Obstinate refusal is correct when some one is playing something wrong. Somehow somewhere people believe that when a model is killed it is not Removed until all effects are resolved. This is incorrect. Unless an ability says don't remove the model before do X effect you immediately remove the model. For instance in you first alternative scenario as soon as vik hits 0 wounds from black blood she drops a corpse marker and is removed as per the rules of page 46. Rules from the rule book not my opinion not my personal view. In your second scenario you are killing the model with black blood first (ie removing it ) and since black blood is not an ability that says when killed do this. It does not go off. (Since no model is in play to from) Or if you ignore that then vik heals from into the fray then you go back to damage and she takes 1 damage from black blood And continues on her merry way. Which for some reason killing a model and then doing damage makes no logical or even common sense. <- that is my opinion. Now can I leave with out be called back in here. Put my foot out the door and with your words you draw me back in. Maybe I should just start putting my hands on my ears and scream lalalalaa with everybody else.

Black blood goes off then the model is killed. into the fray goes after Black blood. if vik is at one wound and within 1" of its target which has Black blood and deals enough damage to kill it would die before into the fray goes off. damage->Black blood->killed->into the fray. damage->black blood-vik is killed due to Black blood.->target is killed->no model is around to do into the fray since vik was killed. Hope that explains my position quite clearly Now can i leave?

I keep harping it for the reason that only if a Rule or Ability says stick around before removing the model. Let me explain. and be clear After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage. Explosive Demise 2: All models within p2 suffer 2 damage when this model is killed (not sacrificed). Finish the Job: When this model is killed, it may place a Scheme Marker in base contact with itself before it is removed. When a model with the Living or Undead characteristic is killed, the model's controller places a Corpse Marker in base contact with the model before it is removed. These are just samples of rules or abilities that happen when a model is killed. Now if a model has no when killed abilities is not living or a construct and the attacker does not declare an after damaging trigger the model is Immediately removed from the table when it hits 0 wounds. as per the page 46 of the rule book. and as i previously stated if Killed was an abilty you could just say you stack that BB goes first then killed. But its not. heck killed is just killed. has no definition except common sense says to remove the model when it is killed. when a model gets decapitated we are told to kill it, so sure just kill it but what does that mean. nothing says remove it unless it is at 0 wounds see. Sacrifice is explained that you remove the model. and on the book keeping plenty of things dont get resolved when model is killed. also Black Blood: All models without Black Blood within 1 suffer 1 damage when this model suffers damage. Explosive Demise 2: All models within 2 suffer 2 damage when this model is killed (not sacrificed). if i used a black blood shaman to give a model with explosive demise Black blood. i would sure as hell "motivate " Black blood when i am damaged and then if i am killed from the damage explode. Exploding first then going back to Black blood is quite ass backwards. Killing an enemy and then doing damage is quite ass backwards. And i'm done here. Play Things how you want. i cant nor won't nor actually care to stop you.

When is during step 5. After is always after step 5. http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/104154-teddys-peekaboo-and-kirais-malevolence/page-2 The first sentence if Malevolence was a when suffering it happens during step 5. since it is after suffering it happens after step 5. Black blood is most certainly a When damaged Black Blood: All models without Black Blood within 1 suffer 1 damage when this model suffers damage." That is a Very important distinction. If being killed was an abilty i could make up a reason of how you could stack black blood first then going into "The Death Process" (when killed effects like exploding dropping markers and removing the model at the end) and how the way Into the fray is worded you most certainly would heal first since you are the acting model then i could do my black blood and then die. But killed is just that killed do "The Death Process" But i would really like to see how you would explain this to your opponent especially if they are newer. "so my vik heals before your black blood goes off since i killed your model" "But i took damage so shouldn't my abilty go first?" "nah man this is the only abilty in the whole game that is not a after killing or a when killing" "huh" "yep its the loop hole that makes black blood null and void. but only if its the first model i kill this turn" "yeah,,,,,,sure lets keep playing......" Cue awkwardness especially if vik was on one wound and no SS. Much hot. Much wow. So good. angry opponent/ Confused opponent Into the Fray: The first time this model kills another model during it's activation, this model may heal 1/2/3" In my twisted mind it seems that if viktoria "motivates" Into the fray first then the model with BB has already been removed. and then trying to "motivate" BB from the damage caused can not happen since there is no model to BB from. So to me i read it as flip damage add/subtract static modifiers, Deal damage, Suffer damage,Prevention flip, if +1 damage is suffered "motivate" BB, check if at 0 wounds, if killed,"motivate" Into the fray, Do "The Death Process" Just my 2 cents.

*looks around* who was being uncivil?

Pretty sure everyone who is anyone who plays malifaux would cry foul if someone said I killed your model but it's ability does not go off since I killed it. On the second part of your question if a model is killed it is removed from play. Immediately (albeit immediately is used loosely here) you do when killed/after killing abilities drop appropriate markers and remove the model. You can't do black blood since it is not a when killed ability. Its a when suffering damage. So if the model is killed its gone. And no model is around to make a from. So in the spirt of malifaux and of black blood It has to "motivate" first before it is killed. Mainly cause you damaged it to kill it. Also there is this paragraph: When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed. I read that as 2 sentences. You reduce the wounds first. Then check to see if killed. I see a pause. I see where black blood works. Cheers.

Mtg has 400 pages of rules. But there is not doubt how it works. Malifaux needs about 50.

@math have you seen the dumb luck ruling in the faq lol.

Let's look at the trigger. After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage. So option 3 is immediately wrong. Option 1 is easy. The only after failing triggers I can find are on attack actions. (Ie guardian's shield press. ) so if they declare that they are not declaring after damaging or success or resolving. If the attacking model declares after success then again can't declare after damaging. If the defender declares it uhh it does not go off since they did not succeed. And after resolving happens after....resolving which is after after damaging. Ie if I declare onslaught the action has not been resolved till after onslaught has. So option 1 and option 2 are the same yes?

Trying to say viktorias Into the fray goes first means the enemy is killed. and the killed model is removed and is not there to do BB. Which is nonsense. So BB has to go first regardless if it is reduced to 0 by the damage and killed. Other After killing abilities. Love The Job: When this model kills an enemy model it may heal 3/4/5 damage. (1) Cleaver (Ml 6:ram / Rst: Df / Rg: :close2): Target suffers 4/5/7 damage. After killing a model with this Attack, this model heals 2/3/4 damage. Into the Fray: The first time this model kills another model during its Activation, this model may heal 1/2/3 damage.

i am going to ignore that last post. Here is why Black blood would Go off before killed. it is actually REALLY REALLY simple. If the model is killed before black blood Goes off, Black blood would not go off. no model is in play to make a from. So if you truly believe that killing a model with black blood completely nulls and voids Black blood. Then i can say with 100% assurance that you are not playing malifaux. you are playing some other game that is like malifaux but instead of using the rules you make up your own rules and do your own thing. Now to respond to that last post. have you read the rule book under triggers? might help you.

Just to be clear if the tengu ported out of sebastions aura that makes him take extra poison damage. He does not take the extra damage. But he does still take the one from ?catalyst?

How did you kill it. I assume she used her sweet sword. Which does damage. I guess in my sweet opinion. You have to deal damage first before killing a model. So black blood would happen first. Seems most logical and dare I say it common sense. Also how would you resolve Victoria hitting Colette and Colette triggering death defying. She hit 0 wounds must be killed so you heal right? Any love Colette yet?

@Myrra lol. For the vik question she had to do damge to kill the model right? So when the model is damaged black blood goes off. So she would die (sans soul stone prevention) before her into the fray would actually go off.

Double post is double.

1% is Sebastian. If the tengu had poison +1 and started near Sebastian. Him being placed 5" away would save him from taking the extra +2 damage. Still would take one but that is acceptable.