dancater

Lady Justice pairs with Tara. Tara seems, twisty in the extreme, horrible movement shenanigans. Not looking forward to the inevitable migraine from playing her. Lady J has destructible impassable markers (ahem, the Inventor issue again, this should be the correction destructible and easier to produce). Buffs her Marshal Pine Box, likely see some heavy themed crews. I guess there was limited things to do to change up LadyJ and stay in her iconic theme, this makes her less the death machine and more the crew enhancer, which works. Thirty-Three, god I love, love how Wyrd will joke themselves 😆, referring to the blurry pg33 of the pdf rules, they'll need to archive this page for as long as this model is in live play. As to the model itself, I hate it, it looks awesome, and its powers appear as aggravating as hell. Slippery, Incorporeal, Mv 6 Df 5 Wd 8, an aura Slow and Melee Bury. At 8 SS it is expensive but I think it may be one of the best "achieve a specific thing on a table location" in the game. I think it will be, let's say difficult to pin down. Overall, from this Arcanist's viewpoint they both seem to be OK. They are powerful (and should be) and different. Although honestly I've barely seen OG Tara or OG LadyJ on the table, just not around my tiny group, so not 100% certain how they compare or how evil their mechanics and crews are.

Well. I've talked this one to death, I've imagined, or had explained, many different bad situations. Certainly feel like there is a rattle in the balance engine of Hoffman the Inventor. So now I'll wait, see what the final iteration of the Inventor is, see if any additional releases or accompanying rules clarification comes along with him, ultimately see how the community responds to his play and whether these issues are real or illusory. Still have 6 more Arcanists to be revealed, including my darling Colette.

And note, this statement is the exact reason that I suspect we'll see the Inventor as is, or very close, despite this thread. We may (I don't think its likely but we may) be hysterical doomsayers. And also, I would not be surprised if the next errata does address Cadmus to some degree, again because of the many complaints of negative play since the release.

While this is broadening the topic. Yes, I have heard a lot against Cadmus as a huge negative play experience. I have not faced him at all, I do think it needs more time in the wild to see what it is truly like. Some masters and crews are leaning more negative, Daw and Pandora spring to mind, but not OP. That's part of Malifaux. My worry here is that the negative play mechanic is pretty obvious and it seems to focus in on the table and terrain to a degree that I dislike. While the table (I'm thinking English Ivan) does play a huge part in the game I don't like this one, it seems rules as intended compared to rules as they play abusive. And that is as a Hoffman is one of my three masters played person.

Agreed. I'm not a tournament player at all, so on that count, meh. But, one the competitive scene, does heavily feature in the promotion of the game, through podcasting tournament players, through shop visitors seeing in-store events. Bad blood there is only a negative, and in this case unnecessary. Also it is still a negative in non-competitive games where players aren't gentlemanly. This could be an especial problem where a unreasonable, and knowledgeable, veteran player takes advantage of a newer player at a games night, for victory and giggles. Hopefully not common, but I know it does happen. Souring new players is NOT what we, or Wyrd, want. Let's face facts the complexity of Malifaux as a war game (which is the draw for me) is already a good barrier to entry, why have imbalanced non-competitive mechanics as well.

I partially agree. However, I will say that the necessity to take mandatory marker removal into the Inventor (of any Hoffman declare because it could be the Inventor) is somewhat reduced depending on the table state. The same issue of what strat/schemes are available and where and what the terrain is (in relation to strat markers especially) being huge for the 'playability' of the Inventor also works in reverse. So where the table, strats and schemes are very unfriendly against the Inventors Pylons (allowing him to lock critical portions of the play area) that's, as we've acknowledged terrible, and would almost demand marker removal tech. But where the table is not dense with difficult, or worse impassable, terrain and the strat/schemes don't necessitate getting to certain key points, well then the Pylons become an irritant, marker removal is nice, but by no means essential. I dislike that the above calculation is going to be important for the Inventor. I agree that limiting play to certain symbols is unreasonable. But it is game damaging, not game breaking. I do think it needs a solution, and I think we have solid suggestions here. And as I've said, I suspect (as muraki says) they won't implement them this late (I hope but..), so I do think that we see a significant errata, or GG3 proto-errata, after 12 months has highlighted this problem as needing to be addressed.

This would need to extend to can't be placed within 3" of terrain, or at least impassable terrain to be effective I think, otherwise the board could achieve the lockdown which the rules as written couldn't. Alternatively they could introduce a "Phase" rule where the Pylons cause nearby terrain to phase in and out of reality and become effectively passable in a 3" aura. I personally do not like this idea, but it would work. Boom. Pylons as a similar to Lamps, works for me, even thematically seems consistent. Because as a community we were waiting for you, so you're late.

But does the Otherside box stand in for the Guild/Rezzer starter box? Your correct, the remaining 3 is seductive, but would no where near cover Arcanists, Ten Thunders and Neverborn, who thus far have no new 'starter' versatiles. Where, will, we see the 9+/- versatile starter box models for these factions? Will they be re-sculpts instead of new? Will some of the new release dual keyword models include versatile and be released in a starter? Will, given the tempo of releases, these Faction starters (and possibly Guild and Rezzers with more new models) be part of a release in 2022? I think the 2022 release is actually the most likely here, it won't actually slow the starter box output, they already released the Outcasts starter without the book, I could see two new starter boxes releasing before a new book release next year. Assuming there is a planned new 3E book release next year. Interestingly the awkward 2 would comfortably cover a Henchman/Enforcer versatile for both Guild and Rezzers, filling out the Otherside releases to 3 new for both. With the clear move towards integrating the Otherside and Malifaux lore fiction together more closely there is huge room for speculation on what is due in 2022.

Correted that. My error. Same, I did the math, then realised that certain models were alts/resculpts and didn't correct. Thanks.

OG Hoff is all about buffing his crew in a pretty tight, self-supporting armour bubble of mechanical ginsu. This new Hoff has more in the way of debuffing opposition. Also the Pylons handing out power tokens means the Inventors crew has much greater potential to spread out. However the Inventor cannot simply hand out power tokens like candy and the Pylons are static, only the Inventor can move them, so the crew becomes less one tight bubble and more several strategic nodes. OG Hoff is a little less resilient (one lower Df and Wd) and slightly slower (one less Mv) and much smaller size 2 and 30mm compared to size 3 and 50mm. OG Hoff has a slightly higher max melee dam (6 compared to 5) but shorter reach 30mm 1" opposing 50mm 2" so the Inventor takes up much greater threat space. The OG Hoff has a potential Construct Heal with welding which the Inventor does not have. I can't be certain, but... This is my feeling OG Hoff plays better into the midfield slugging match and his Construct crew will ultimately do more, with a better, more consistent power token flow. This is a max effort in one place, maybe scheme to the periphery crew. While the Inventor is much more able to operate with less support, causing Bulldoze chaos and throwing enemy models around, meanwhile his crew works on a tighter power token budget but can do so in more spread out, isolated position, if necessary battling to hold key points and waiting for Daddy Hoff to storm over. This is a hold points and wait for reinforcements style set-up. As I've slept on it I am more.... not exactly disappointed, but underwhelmed. Of all the new title variants this feels like it does the least to change the core crew make up (the same excellent Construct options will be chosen either way and simply play slightly differently) and while the Inventor will look very different his personal playstyle is basically I have Armour, hit hard, can use power tokens and also hand them out (the method has simply changed). In addition, as I and others have already argued, his Pylons have the potential to be super problematic. As indestructible and impassable they can break certain strat and scheme victory conditions, which sucks, and this is worse depending on table layout, which is a random factor which should not be so emphasised. So if the Pylons are unassailable into the right circumstance it will be the worst type of cheap victory. The Pylons are markers, which can, by some abilities be removed. The Inventor really relies on them, especially to power the crew and if an opponent can easily remove them well the whole theme of the crew and its strength is crippled. This sucks as the worst type of hard counter. Opponents on hearing Hoffman will simply have to take whatever form of marker removal they can, to not do so will be very bad. Knowing this the Inventor title will constantly be the poorer choice against OG Hoffman, where the hard counter (anti-armour and ping damage) is reduced at least somewhat by the necessity of playing into the Inventor counter. But at the foundation both Hoffman crews are still countered by anti-armour, so the title just demands you dilute with marker removal. I'd love either to, somehow, be totally misreading this (I don't think I am) or for Wyrd to be reading this and slightly modify the Inventor. The suggestions seem to revolve around some combination of making the Pylons NOT totally blocking (either passable in some fashion or destructible) and providing the Inventor with compensation, in terms of more ways to summon or protect the Pylons (to prevent losing them all if they can be more easily destroyed) or use the Pylons for damage or other shenanigans (if they are passable). I just get the feeling that if this doesn't happen than in a years time the Inventor will be one of the failures (hopefully not, or if so the exception to the overall success) of this Burning Malifaux release. But I'd love to either be totally wrong, or for a simple light revision pre-release to negate this pessimistic view.

On an empty battlefield yes. But if a table has weird terrain things could go pear shaped fast. Bad idea that table layout is so effected by a single master. Climbable is a solution, but this has implications for standing on top of the marker, both in terms of what could fit, making the markers and LoS. But it is not an impossible solution. I'd still prefer it was treated more like a Pylon of fine struts with arcing electricity which is passable and maybe does something else (balance wise). I'd love an idea some form of static electricity which pulls in or pushes away, but not sure how to make this work mechanically and not simply create new problems, not to mention more complexity on new models is something I'd rather avoid.

This x100 Looking at his card at the start I figured Pylons would be like Ice Pillars, but they are not. I thought maybe a scrap marker and big card would 'summon' a new one, but it is Bulldoze which produces new Pylons, which is less flexible and much more fiddly. I'll be honest I'd vastly prefer they be say Hazardous style terrain (arcing electricity) or simply passable and totally indestructible except by Hoffman's specific mentioned abilites. That would mean so many less issues.

Agree, but I am dubious of this idea. As impassable markers the potential for really un-fun blocking of certain strats and schemes is awful. If, in order to address this they increase marker destruction powers then you've got a built in hard-counter for Hoff the Inventor, which you pretty much HAVE to take if Hoffman is declared. I made a comment on a different (I think) Maniacal_cackle post, about Kaeris. That its Malifaux, so while huge damage potential is a risk and needs to be carefully balanced it is not, by any means game breaking, because damage and killing in Malifaux is rarely the primary way to win the game. This is the opposite of that point. Hoffman the Inventor has the potential to lock out schemes and strats with indestructible, impassable terrain unless specifically planned for. This has a direct impact on how Malifaux games are usually won. That is, to my mind, much more of a potential problem.

Yep, really like this one.

As an Arcanist that loves Hoffman I totally agree. As non-destructible markers its potentially game breaking and I dislike it on principle. But.... With limited ways to create new Pylon Markers, given how essential they seem to be to this Hoffman version, if they can be easily destroyed then this title is crippled. This is the first title which really worries me in terms of playability, game balance and similar issues. Really think this needs to be looked at more closely. But I do love the idea.

Schemes and Stones on YouTube have revealed new cards, I don't have images I can post. Hopefully others will soon. Either way. Its Hoffman the Inventor (paired across from Von Schill with the title Ironheart) Hoffman now has Pylon Markers (4 placed at start of the game) which provide power tokens, he is a little faster, a little tougher, can hand out injured. Big, size 3 50mm, had a Bulldoze ability and 2" melee reach. Really not sure. The new Augmented model is Outcast (Freikorps) called the Metallurgist a 6ss Enforcer. Model has pretty solid defences with Df5 Wds6 Shielded +2 and Evasive. It a buff model, can generate power tokens, improves how armour works (can reduce certain damage to 0), can command constructs and vent steam. Looks useful as hell for the points.

Also assuming the Burning Man titles are connected (as they are with Reva and Kaeris). Then... Ulix, Euripides, Nellie, Misaki, Parker and Maxine will somehow combo off in pairs. Thoughts?

As I thought when reading, clipping is in and Rampage is immensely flexible.

Yep, which has interesting implications. Will this be simply story and master title theme connected? Or will it have wider in-game implications with new keyword/faction options? Is the Burning Man Neverborn or a harbinger of some much darker ideal. Is this the potential next future faction? And what of the Burning Man himself and his potential as a master and crew? Will this happen?

And also. Will the Malifaux burning book be available as a GenCon order?? If so I'm saving my purchase and shipping money now. What does the Burning Man's corruption mean for the 8 masters afflicted and for the wider factions? Will this be simply story and master title theme connected? Or will it have wider in-game implications with new keyword/faction options? Is the Burning Man Neverborn or a harbinger of some much darker ideal. Is this the potential next future faction? And what of the Burning Man himself and his potential as a master and crew? Will this happen? I wants, needs, to know more.

From Wyrd site "bringing new title cards for every master this side of the Breach! With the introduction of these Title cards, and an additional 40 new characters introduced to the world of Malifaux, you’ll be able to expand and customize your favorite crew like never before!" 8 factions each with 8 masters (64 total masters) divided as: So, please check my math: Guild 5 unique master 3 dual faction Rezzers 6 unique master 2 dual faction Neverborn 5 unique master 3 dual faction Arcanist 5 unique master 3 dual faction Outcasts 6 unique master 2 dual faction Bayou 6 unique master 2 dual faction Ten Thunders 5 unique master 3 dual faction Explorers 6 unique master 2 dual faction That equals 44 unique masters and 20 dual masters. So this means 54 separate masters, so 54 new titles, and 40 new characters coming. Assuming every title has at least one shared character, then 27 characters will bridge the gap between any two titles. Leaving 13 characters, the Other Side Court of Two and Guild boxes have seven characters unique to 2 Guild (Guild mage, Gatling guns) or 2 Rezzer models (Enslaved spirit, Gwisin) with also Ikiryo who maybe be a variant but would that classify as "new", lets say no. This leaves 36 new characters. The other new characters we know of are Deacon (Kaeris/Reva), Cavatica (Nexus/Lucius), Lady Yume (Dreamer/Asami), The Kurgan (Jedza/MamaZ), Noxious Nephlim (Nekima/Molly), Kenshiro (Viks/Yan Lo), the Drudge (Ironsides/Anya). That is 7 new characters, across 14 masters. Leaving 29 more. The Outcast box has potentially 3 more Yannic Waller, Catalan brawler and Catalan Rifleman. As does the Bayou box with 4 Stumpy, Fluffernutter, Ruffles and Bo Peep. If they count then that is 7 more. Down to 22. So what is left. Theoretically if every master gets a dual keyword model we need a total of 27, and we've definitely had 7, meaning we'd need 20 more. But with Kirai and Sonnia getting specific Otherside releases could we count them both out meaning 18 to go? The starter boxes contain Syndicate (3), Sooey (1), Whiz Bang (1), Tricksy (1) and Swampfiend (1), but given at least Swampfiend has The Kurgan that does not seem to limit the dual keyword option. So if the Otherside box does cover Sonnia and Kirai we seem to have potentially 3 open model slots. If Sonnia and Kirai will get a dual keyword still then we have 2 open model slot. All this assuming every title has a dual keyword model. And what about future Starter boxes. We've seen Explorers which is simply a release point for known models, Outcasts 3 new models, Bayou 4 new models (from Bayou Bash game). Does the Otherside box count as the starter boxes (will that box be released as 2 separate starters?) for Guild (the Gunner and Mage are versatile, will the Guild box contain these two? What does that mean if you bought the Otherside box? Will there be a third versatile Henchman or Enforcer?). Does this mean that the Enslaved spirit and Gwisin will be versatile models, and does the same apply to Rezzers here as Guild? What about new models for starter boxes in the other factions, so Arcanists, Ten Thunders, Neverborn? Will they each get three new models? Will the forthcoming release include them? If so it would seem we have at least 11 models we have not seen contained in the starter boxes. This is a lot of meaningless math and pure speculation, but it interested me to break it down thusly.

From Wyrd site "bringing new title cards for every master this side of the Breach! With the introduction of these Title cards, and an additional 40 new characters introduced to the world of Malifaux, you’ll be able to expand and customize your favorite crew like never before!" 8 factions each with 8 masters (64 total masters) divided as: So, please check my math: Guild 5 unique master 3 dual faction Rezzers 6 unique master 2 dual faction Neverborn 5 unique master 3 dual faction Arcanist 5 unique master 3 dual faction Outcasts 6 unique master 2 dual faction Bayou 6 unique master 2 dual faction Ten Thunders 5 unique master 3 dual faction Explorers 6 unique master 2 dual faction That equals 44 unique masters and 20 dual masters. So this means 54 separate masters, so 54 new titles, and 40 new characters coming. Assuming every title has at least one shared character, then 27 characters will bridge the gap between any two titles. Leaving 13 characters, the Other Side Court of Two and Guild boxes have seven characters unique to 2 Guild (Guild mage, Gatling guns) or 2 Neverborn (Enslaved spirit, Gwisin) with also Ikiryo who maybe be a variant but would that classify as "new", lets say no. This leaves 34 new characters. The other new characters we know of are Deacon (Kaeris/Reva), Cavatica (Nexus/Lucius), Lady Yume (Dreamer/Asami), The Kurgan (Jedza/MamaZ), Noxious Nephlim (Nekima/Molly), Kenshiro (Viks/Yan Lo), the Drudge (Ironsides/Anya). That is 7 new characters, across 14 masters. Leaving 27 more. The Outcast box has potentially 3 more Yannic Waller, Catalan brawler and Catalan Rifleman. As does the Bayou box with 4 Stumpy, Fluffernutter, Ruffles and Bo Peep. If they count then that is 7 more. Down to 20. So what is left. Theoretically if every master gets a dual keyword model we need a total of 27, and we've definitely had 7, meaning we'd need 20 more. But with Kirai and Sonnia getting specific Otherside releases could we count them both out meaning 18 to go? The starter boxes contain Syndicate (3), Sooey (1), Whiz Bang (1), Tricksy (1) and Swampfiend (1), but given at least Swampfiend has The Kurgan that does not seem to limit the dual keyword option. So if the Otherside box does cover Sonnia and Kirai we seem to have potentially 2 open model slots. If Sonnia and Kirai will get a dual keyword still then we have 1 open model slot. All this assuming every title has a dual keyword model. And what about future Starter boxes. We've seen Explorers which is simply a release point for known models, Outcasts 3 new models, Bayou 4 new models (from Bayou Bash game). Does the Otherside box count as the starter boxes (will that box be released as 2 separate starters?) for Guild (the Gunner and Mage are versatile, will the Guild box contain these two? What does that mean if you bought the Otherside box? Will there be a third versatile Henchman or Enforcer?). Does this mean that the Enslaved spirit and Gwisin will be versatile models, and does the same apply to Rezzers here as Guild? What about new models for starter boxes in the other factions, so Arcanists, Ten Thunders, Neverborn? Will they each get three new models? Will the forthcoming release include them? If so it would seem we have at least 11 models we have not seen contained in the starter boxes. This is a lot of meaningless math and pure speculation, but it interested me to break it down thusly. I've posted this exact post as a new thread in Malifaux general.

Would the "moves through the target" be read as Kaeris must cross, in some portion, her base with the opponent? That's my reading so you could narrowly clip an opponent. The alternative is that Kaeris' base, all of it, must cross all of the opponents base. Which I don't think is the right reading. This has connotations where a 5" push across a 50mm (god I wish we would just commit to metric worldwide, I'm looking at you America) base where that large base opponent has reach and the push will not fully clear engagement. The thought of fire storming an enemy master is deLightful, if Kaeris has Burning 3, charge (1) enemy master attack select Rampage, push through master out of engagement, re-charge (2) enemy master attack select Rampage, push through master out of engagement, re-charge (3) enemy master on third charge select for Smoulder trigger, then use scorching radiance for the finale. Seems that would be fun. I can see this. I'm wondering how she'll fare against condition removal or crews which ignore burning in some way, but that certainly narrows the play-in against her, to narrow imo. That's the question. Need more potential reasonable counters than Molly and Reva in rezzers for example. Having said that, one game does not lock the play. So far several of the new masters have obvious play but seem tricky, I think Kaeris is the reverse, in this incarnation she is raw damage, which is the simplest to grasp playstyle, so she'll roll hard while opponents struggle to learn counters. Terrain/marker destruction (destroying her Pyre Markers) would also seem useful. Curious to see how she would survive a truly planned and executed alpha strike. Also need to review all the scheme/strat/dropped marker rules etc. As killy as she is, and there are several hideous damage masters (OG Nekima springs to mind) this is Malifaux, so how good is her crew build for scheming? The Deacon does seem great, but he is not massively durable so near the Golem he's an obvious target. He is also ground bound and Mv5 so doubt he'll be close to Kaeris if she goes thermo-nuclear. Question on Firestarter, always like the little arsonist, but find he has limited play in OG Kaeris, what is his potential with the Phoenix (lets be honest here). Same questions apply to Firebrands, which I've never really seen a great use for over alternatives and Fire Gamin which are at best OK in OG Kaeris. Obviously OG Kaeris is a different beast to Phoenix, but how different will the crew options be? How much will Deacon impact crew selection viability? I want to use more models in more places basically. Also, lots of Burning Man reference, is Kaeris drifting into the nihilistic Neverborn cult? Seems so.

Done. Kaeris and Reva are matched. Also Lucius and Cadmus, which solves that question as well.

Also, yes in a certain way you are correct. The summons is more powerful the earlier in the game it is done. But.... This post isn't really about that, mainly because its very unlikely that you have more than one or two Effigies on the table, at the outside three, at one time. So, while I guess a different Effigy could be the useful summons on each different turn of the game with a fluid game state that doesn't really matter on prioritising. And the reason you're unlikely to have more than say three Effigies is, one the little fellows aren't especially resilient and their are also the Dolls and even Mannequin as summons. So assume you field one (Lucky in Bayou) then summon another turn 1 and another turn 2 you're at 3 Effigies up, I'd be amazed if one hasn't died by turn 3 and you could resummon it. That is assuming the Dolls and Mannequin aren't a summon option. That also assumes your crew starts with an Effigy, and because you can summon them the only reason I see to do so is for the Emissary grow attachment. In a game where I have the opportunity to summon and field four or more Effigies on the table at once, well I figure that's a rare game and one I'm probably winning so I'm not tremendously worried that I only brought 3.