Fetid Strumpet

I'd drop the lawyer and maybe the hounds and add Lucius. Although keeping the Hounds if you can squeeze Lucius in might not be a bad idea. I tend to like Lady J lists that run Lucius and 2 Austringers myself.

Drake, I'm curious as to why you think Kirai's Avatar is so scary. I'm a very heavy Kirai player and I struggle to see a situation where I would want to avatar with her. And that was before the revelation that the card she came with has a dmg line that is too high and incorrect. Please understand, I'm not saying I wish Kirai had a more powerful avatar. As Kirai really is the most competitive of the Resser Masters I think it is totally fair her Avatar to be what it is. I'm just curious as to other players impressions of her. I always could be wrong on how good she is.

Minimum in my experience: Kirai Box 2 clamshells of Seishin 2 Clamshells of Gaki Lost Love 1 Shikome If you can afford it splashing the extra Shikome and possibly a desperate merc as well is not a bad idea.

What about instead of Sebastian we bring in Dastue-Ba to use Harvest Sinners to kill the dogs and possibly get some gaki an onryo off the deaths?

From my perspective even with the minor shifts I'm suggesting I feel the NB will still be the most competitive faction, and frankly that's just how it is. I only advocate changes which I feel are better for the game as a whole, not because I feel NB need to be cuddled so others can shine. For example, Pandora, I 100% disagree with the design philosophy behind her even though it is how I enjoy playing the game, but I couldn't think of anyway to change her that wouldn't drastically screw her up or radically change the way she plays. So even though I don't find it fun to be in a game with her I can't advocate a change because doing anything to her would, in my opinion, radically alter her and make her play style unrecognizable. The Dreamer on the other hand, although I feel he is in fact OP, although tricky to get used to, doesn't need or deserve to have the extra SS for taking nightmares. Quite often against a Dreamer crew you are going up against a full utilization of agreed upon SS + 5 extra stones. This is an extra advantage the dreamer doesn't need, and making this small change would not radically alter how the dreamer plays, only how big the crew he brings in is. So this is a change I can support.

I'm not sure that really anything, outside of one or two tweaks should be done at all to "rebalance" anything. While I'm firmly in the camp that believes NB are stronger than other factions, I think it would be really counterproductive to even attempt to redress it by changing existing models with the goal of "rebalancing" them. The danger is always that you'll over do it and create other problems. Again in my opinion NB are stronger than other factions. and really that's just the end of the story, and nothing except examining future additions should be done. The few things I think should be changed... In my opinion: The dreamer shouldn't get additional stones for hiring nightmares. Alps should be adjusted very slightly (but I have no idea how), and i disagree with making them rare. Double Take should be once per cast of Lure. At this point...that's really all I can think of at this point.

I'd imagine so. I don't have prior experience with this as I only began playing last December, but Nilus has said that in his experience we have gone through this OP argument before with guild and so on. If this is true I'll have to take him at his word, and I could definitely see the idea of the curve being skewed in guild's favor during the book one era. I agree with you however that if current design philosophy holds true, and wyrd itself doesn't agree that the arguments of those of us who feel NB are on the stronger end of the power scale are accurate, then you may be right that NB will remain where they currently stand on the power scale. *shrug* I still love the game, and feel overall it is definitely more balanced than WHF, and will still be doing my darndest to get others interested in it. I just feel that from a competitive standpoint that NB are the equivalent of fully automatic weapons and the other factions are revolvers. You can definitely win with the revolver, and skill does impact the outcome a great deal, but the advantage lies with the automatics.

Exactly, it isn't that there isn't any synergy, its that the Neverborn have more direct synergy across the board through the most popular minions and masters. For example Stiched Together have a low average movement rate. With the Dreamer that issue is completely negated because he can deliver his entire crew, or portions thereof to where ever he wishes. Stitched also have direct synergy with Pandora, they have abilities to screen Pandora's crew from ranged attacks, and their most dmging abilities are all WP based, which feeds Pandora's Engine of 1000 cuts. Pandora also strips any immunity to WP duels the opposing crew might have, leaving all models vulnerable to attack by the stitched. Stitched are Dolls, so Collodi can apply all of his doll buffs to them making them from substantial threats to a nuclear equivalent. This is one example, but the direct synergies which are exhibited by the current crop of NB are pretty extensive. There really isn't much that is comparable across the other faction's minion selection. That isn't to say there is none, just that the current crop as things stand is the way it is. And although I hold that NB are the most powerful faction I'm not advocating changing them all just to bring them in line, aside from one or two minor tweaks I think NB should be left alone in all their powerful glory. In time another faction will most likely eclipse them in their turn. In any system where there are multiple options, something is going to rise to be the most optimal choice. It's just the way it is. I know that when we play we want our victories to be solely dependent on ourselves and not due to any "advantage" we might have, but really it's not always the case. It's a part of miniatures games so we might as well get used to it. We can at least recognize the fact when it crops up. The NB on the whole don't have any broken combinations. They have a few I personally think aren't good for the game considering how powerful they are and the negative play experience they create, but they don't break the game open.

Hmmmm, what strat came up that the resser player decided to play Seamus, or has he been playing fixed master all tourney? In my own case I find Seamus only really out performs Kirai at treasure hunt, although that's probably just me.

I definitely do! I've been his avid listener since January.

Given some of the acrimony present in some of the posts I think this might be more helpful. *Keys to a Backhoe*

Color me unsurprised. I'll be the first to admit however that things can change wildly up until the final match is over. While the current standings don't surprise me in the least we need to wait until the final results are in until we can really add this data to our discussions.

But synergy is where the game is won and lost. That, in my opinion, is why NB have the edge, and why, if you are a tournament player, your best choice to run is most likely NB. Look at all the NB masters and their crews, and the minions and you see that overall the NB masters and minions form machines that become greater than the sum of it's parts. Dreamer: Massive maneuverability and crew placement control. Pandora: focus on Willpower duels, which become dmg through her abilities, strips away any immunities something might have to willpower duels as a passive ability. Many very solid NB minions pump out very painful WP duels. Zoraida: Little very direct Synergry( More to come on that) but far more flexible and diverse than almost any other crews. Synergises to a frightening extent with the next model by offering control and long range casting and summoning support to- Collodi: Frightening speed and melee power and buffs with puppets. Ability to buff them to become beyond scary powerful. Recycles his own minions better than Ressers, whose entire faction philosophy revolves around this. Paired with Zoraida pumpimg out Wicked Dolls every turn, which become significant within a long distance from Collodi or Zoraida. Lilith: Probably the "least" directly synergistic of the NB masters, and still very solid. No real ability to comment here as I haven't seen her played all that often. There really isn't another faction as a whole which is that synergisitc across the board of the factions. There are individual crews that have the same or close to the same level of synergy, but not across the board. And in this game that is what's most important. Synergies win games.

Tears: Of a $$$$$$$$$$.

Let's step back a second and consider from another angle. I respect the opinion that others have that NB are perfectly balanced against the other crews, but I don't agree. However maybe instead of the generalized discussions we are having we should look at individual comparisons and look at things from a micro instead of macro level. Let's examine just for a moment the Dreamer. Malifaux is primarily an objective based game, so it would stand to reason that certain masters will have synergies or play styles that favor certain objectives. Could the NB players out there explain which strategies the Dreamer is sub optimal at, and please give reasons for this. From my perspective there isn't a strategy the Dreamer isn't VERY competitive at. His speed and mobility, not to mention his ability to provide rapid transit for an entire crew of models makes him extremely good at any strategy or scheme that requires him to be at a certain location, or interact with objectives. That same mobility also makes the Dreamer very good at any objective that is kill based, as 99% of the time the Dreamer will dictate to terms and location of the battle. Add to the fact that the Dreamer in addition to all this has the capability to drop his entire crew directly into melee range of the opposing crew, on the first turn, no matter where the opposing crew is deployed. Even if the opposing crew was deployed on the board edge furthest away from the Dreamer's crew. I have seen multiple games where the Dreamer player tables the opponent on the first turn of the game. Add this to the fact that in a 35 SS game, for example, the Dreamer can bring 32SS worth of minions into the game and still have 8 SS in his pool, performing essentially as if he had a cache of 5 SS. Let me state again that I don't believe the Dreamer is broken, but can any NB player sit here and honestly tell me that they think that Nicodem, or Seamus, or McMourning are the equal to that? Even when the best anti-Dreamer advice people who play the dreamer give out is "Be prepared to lose the most important model you have, accept it, plan for it, and move on from it." and that the best way to survive a dreamer assault is to "make certain your models are not all bunched up, and not all spread out, you need to find that perfect middle ground so that if the Dreamer commits to the attack your models you can respond". Even looking at it this way again the battle is being completely dictated by the Dreamer. Can a NB player please explain rationally to me how everything the Dreamer brings to the table is Balanced in anyway against the other masters in the game? Now again I don't believe the Dreamer is Broken, and if I had my way only one or two small changes would be made to him. In any system where players have multiple different options something is going to be out on the higher end of the power scale and really that's what's going to happen. I also agree with Lalo that fixing power issues is a much more tricky proposition than fixing it in a CCG and so outside of very minor changes I think we are stuck with things as they are until new models or released schemes or strats change the environment. What I would like is just recognition of the fact the NB do get the cookie at the present time.

Just so I can clarify a point, while I do think Neverborn are THE tourney faction at the moment and feel there could be a few tweaks here and there that would bring them more in line my last post was just a reiteration on the fact that I feel the whole "Glass Cannon" argument as a balancing factor for the NB was nonsense. Carry on. =D

This. Don't get me wrong, Hard to Wound is a good ability. However, taking Weak Dmg is still taking dmg. Resilience is better achieved by not being hit and thereby taking no dmg at all. Neverborn are not glass cannons. They are plain and simply Cannons. I'm sorry Karn, I can't agree with you that one of the balancing factors of NB is that they don't have many mitigation Abilities once they eventually do get hit. NB wounds are not significantly lower than other factions on the more commonly used models (except in the case of Alps). So the fact that their avoidance is their main defence makes them ore resilient than others. If the average wounds of the commonly used NB minion was like 4-5 I might agree with you.

Actually, you can't. Freikorps are a Special Forces. The Effigy is a member of the Special Forces (Doll). You cannot have members of two different special forces in the same crew.

Not getting hit at all is a better defense than mitigating the hit once it is made. I've never bought the argument that Neverborn are glass cannons.

Actually in regards to this a question that has occurred to me is this, if those of use who think that Neverborn are overpowered (Not I repeat, NOT broken) how do we go about backing up that claim to general satisfaction of the community? There really isn't anyway is there? We cannot use statistics because statistics can be presented or interpreted in a variety of different ways. We cannot look at tournament results or faction representation because we then get into the argument over whether or not that faction representation is because Neverborn are good or just cool. I just don't know. For my part I feel that Neverborn are THE faction to play if you are a Tournament player that only cares about winning. I think it is the design philosophy behind the faction with its emphasis on movement & synergy comes out ahead in the way the game is currently won or lost. I've posted on this before, and I don't think this is intentional on the part of Wyrd to make Neverborn the "best". I just think it is a by-product of their design philosophy. Oh, as a side note, could someone explain to me why Neverborn players continually say that their minions are easy to kill glass cannons? I don't find any of the commonly used NB minions any easier to kill than any other factions minions? Why is this statement brought out in defense of NB balance?

Dead Justice is a nightmare sculpt of a model that can be used to officially represent Lady Justice or a Dead Doxy. She doesn't have unique stats. She has the stats of Lady Justice if you use her that way, or the Stats of a Dead Doxy if you use her that way.

Don't forget it also gives Arcane Reservoir. It is really a solid minion choice.

It's the restriction on Special forces that prevents it Mergoth. If you bring Molly you have the Special Forces (Horror) in your crew. You can't have members of more than one Special forces group in your crew.

I think the Arcanist one will see alot of play. Hodgepodge too. Mysterious will be up in the air, definitely used in Collodi led crews as he can't hire totems if he leads. I really don't see the Carrion being used all that often. He's too easy to kill for 4ss and the range on his aura is so small that it's really not worth bringing him. Brutal... no clue.

Yeah, I don't agree that all the Rezzer minions are sub-par, but I really don't see much use for the Carrion Effigy. He's pricy at 4SS cost, doesn't give you any base abilities that warrant inclusion, like arcane reservoir, and doesn't have any real survivability. The only reason to take him is his ability to strip immunity to terror, and the aura is so small that in order to utilize it he will have to be up in the thick of things which is exactly where you don't want him. if the aura was large, like 12" I could see him being worth his cost, barely. I don't know, for 4ss he seems very... useless. Does someone see something with him that I'm missing?