Omenbringer

11 hours ago, wobbly_goggy said:

I'm not sure I understand this at all. If Wyrd provides the means to play competitively, you're by no means constricted by this, or forced to use the rules. The original rulebook strats/schemes and story encounters, the extra scenarios in Crossroads and... your imagination! With such things you can re-invigorate the hobby. IMO (and sorry if this sounds rude), the onus is on YOU to some extent. 

Want more fun scenarios or more thematic lists? make them. Play games with restrictions you and your friends have added. MAKE it more enjoyable. And if this isn't happening in your locality, become a Henchman and make it happen! 
With this game the limit is only your imagination and willingness to try new things.

To the best of my knowledge things like Henchman Hardcore and Enforcer Brawl (ie other game formats) came from players, not from Wyrd. If they can do it, you can too. Take this opportunity to mix things up in your area and re-invigorate the hobby. And if you struggle locally, there are always plenty of players worldwide you can play on Vassal!

On topic - Although I kind of see what you're saying, I don't really see the point. Bayou to some extent = gremlins. At least they'll be there having dealings with them. How much time does Zipp spend in the Bayou? If he's off Pirating would he still be included? I get it, I just don't think it's worth the hassle.

(and booo 3rd ed, no thanks!)

The problem is Wyrd is only really supporting the competitive side of things. Look at their "official" app, there is no option to generate story encounters or utilize any of the premade ones. Also how often have you found a player willing to even give them a try? Many players don't want to go thru the hassle when generating the standard encounters or gaining grounds encounters is a button away. Others view it as not the real version of the game because it isn't really supported. Perhaps if Wyrd included the option in their official App it might help things. Also worth mentioning that it was a fight to even get a story encounter system included in the M2e book, those of us that were around can attest to that.

Also, I am a Henchman and have been for longer than most. The events I run are story driven and I have created many custom scenarios. I hade a league rule set long before Wyrd did and freely disseminated among Henchman communities around the world. My communities and others have reacted very well to them. I am not talking out my ass. What I have said is what the communities I have worked or played in have stated and also what I have observed.

Reinvigorating or building a community is not as easy as you make it seem. I have been very successful in doing this but that is not necessarily the norm. Many a Henchman has tried and ultimately given up. It is more difficult when the core rules have obvious flaws and the balance is heavily skewed.

From your booing of a 3rd edition it is unlikely that I can change your mind, however, burying your head in the sand and acting like everything is fine isn't healthy for the game or community. Edition changes don't have to be as horrific as the one from 1st to M2e was (yes I was here for it). Sure you will lose some players, that is inevitable, but if the game improves you will gain far more. Some of the core rules need work to make function or to make function as intended. The entire range needs to be looked at for balance and applicability. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water (as was done with the shift from 1st ed to M2e) but it might be time to at least change the dirty water or perhaps warm it up. With the plethora of models now available and the bloat of the FAQ/ Errata document, a new edition is almost a certainty. The question is not if there will be one but when. Waiting does nothing but weaken existing communities and rebuilding them becomes much more difficult as gamer's have a long memory. Most game systems see an edition change about every five years and M2e is nearing that mark.

22 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Omenbringer

I largely agree with you but retroactively invalidating player lists will usually lead to a lot of bad blood that I'm not sure the game would recover from. 

I also like the goofy themqtic aspects but for many casual players I think the rules are far to complicated and I think that tournament players that want power builds are a large psrt of the sales for most wargames. I don't think it's a coincidence that the game started growing rapidly when tournaments became more common. My play group has both theme-junkies and competitive players but from my own observations the competitive ones buy a lot more models.

I am not really talking about invalidating lists, simply improving the theme. Models that are themed together should work best together.  A lot of the early Gremlin Masters held true to this. Ulix needs pigs to function, the Brewmaster needs Wesley and models that can function with Poison, even the versatile Som'er Teeth wants a Skeeter or two and handful of Bayou Gremlins to really shine. Generally this is not true in other factions where you simply hire the most efficient, most competitive handful of models and then add a Master to the list. And while the common adage is that you build your list to the Strategy and Scheme pools in practice this isn't really the case. The most competitive models are that way because they function well regardless of what Strats and Schemes are generated.

Making things function best within their theme doesn't necessarily restrict or even invalidate list building. If Rotten Belles lost one of those automatic suits unless taken with Seamus or Sybelle they would still be useful, just not as reliable outside of their themed grouping. Hiring outside of theme would still be possible (even if done super draconian there would still be mercenary models that could be hired) just slightly less beneficial.

As for the competitive folks purchasing more than casual players...well we will just have to disagree on that. I have already given my thoughts on why this is so in the above posts.

It is interesting to me though, that while Wyrd seems to be trying to embrace the competitive fields, Games Workshop and Privateer Press appear to be trying to appeal to the more casual and thematically minded players. Both of these companies are returning to small-scale games and really emphasizing the theme aspects (especially PP's Company of Iron game). I guess the success of these games will show which group, casual or competitive, are the larger player base.

14 hours ago, Rathnard said:

Damn @Omenbringer, and here I was just suggesting a name change for the faction!

Personally I agree that the game is due for an edition change, both to re-balance the model range wholesale and clear up parts of the core rules. Naturally, that'd also be the time to think about changing Faction names or messing with other aspects of the game. 

Regarding Factions losing their distinctiveness, I agree that it's been happening with successive waves, but I'm undecided as to how "bad" that really is. Delving into new styles for each faction can keep things interesting for players, for instance the Domadors (sp?) giving limited access to Resser minions for the Guild. Stuff like that makes me want to go back and try Masters/Factions I might have long since lost interest in, and that can only be a good thing IMO. 

That said, I personally like the idea of further restricting crew hiring pools, both to open up design space and to maintain tighter control over a given Faction or Master's playstyle. Splitting all the factions in two was an idea that I've pondered and seen discussed. In the case of Gremlins you divide them into "Bayou" and "Gremlin" Factions, with the model range being in one of the two (or occasionally both, dual-faction style). That would allow stuff like the Gremlins retaining a "random" theme (Bayou Gremlin style) while the Bayou Faction models are more uncontrollable (pig-style). 

The other idea I recently had was to almost do away with Factions altogether, and restrict Masters to hiring models with specific keywords. For instance Ulix would get Pigs while Ophelia would have to stick with LaCroix. Then you'd allow for limited hiring outside that starting pool, Merc-style. So Ophelia could hire a pair of Slop Haulers if she really wanted, possibly with a 1SS merc tax 

Anyway, none of this is up to me, so I guess we'll have to see what happens with a new edition, whenever that new edition comes along.

Yeah I tend to be a bit of a curmudgeon, but you include quite a bit of my thoughts in your post. As @Ludvig below states:

8 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Removing factions entirely shouldn't be too hard. Just make masters only allowed to hire from specific keywords. It would invalidate a lot of current power builds so it might scare away a lot of players but the technicalities are easy really. 

I think we need more of this. The characteristic descriptors used to mean a lot more than they do this edition. There is a lot of balance potential through their renewed utilization. Take the Rotten Belles for instance (one of my favorite examples I know). Seamus needs them to function the way they do for his crew to be effective, the other faction Masters do not. Tying one of their required suits for Lure to Seamus (or Sybelle) makes them function as designed within that crew while not providing every Resser Master with an easy button. Without that second suit, Rotten Belles can have a high Ca and not be game breaking any time they appear (it is also a bit disingenuous balance wise to have suit requirements that are always provided for free).

As for scarring off those that favor power builds...well I dont think that is a bad outcome at all.

Power builds do nothing for the over all health of the game. It limits the sales for Wyrd because only the small handful of "competitive" models get sold (a good example of this from a rival company is Privateer Press Warmachine 1st Edition Deliverers. Plenty of those boxes and blisters still languishing on store shelves 15 years after production with no need to recast in plastic.). Competitive players also dont buy as many models, they tend to restrict themselves to only what is proven most efficient in winning (usually proxing and testing the models before committing to a purchase). This is again a revenue loss for Wyrd. Power Builds also tend to scar off the more casual players that might be interested in Malifaux (and I will make the bold assumption that that population is significantly larger than the competitive fields). I am basing this off of the communities I have either built or played in over the years, where one or two competitive players destroyed interest in games they played. These casual players are the ones that keep a game alive long after the competitive players have moved on to other systems. I will also make the bold assertion that competitive environments demonstrate the worst aspects of a game system by highlighting exploits, model imbalances, and removing the "fun" from games. Casual players are hesitant to buy into any system they view as exploitable or flawed and that they think they wont have a near even chance of consistently winning. Players can forgive perceived skill differences, they are extremely harsh on perceived imbalances.

I could make one more controversial statement about upgrades but will save that for a later date and another thread.

As always I appreciate anyone who actually reads these posts and concede that these are solely my opinions and experiences and that yours might be entirely different but just as valid. I do hope that when third edition nears reality that polite discourse remains dominant.

@Viruk Thanks for the recipe, now to see if I can replicate it. Your effort is evident in the results.

@Viruk Thanks for the side by side. Also those are some nicely painted minis you posted there. Especially like the wings, care to share the recipe?

If it means the faction starts getting some better models (like the other factions have for the last few books) or returns to its flavor, then I am all for it. As is the faction is in a serious rut because of complaints about specific abilities that seem over powered until you actually play them (having played gremlins since the start of the game, they are definitely not overpowered or even consistent in what they can do...they are a blast to play however and that is what keeps me playing them).

This isn't solely an issue in Malifaux, nearly every game I have played that builds an identity for a group of models around synergy and high-risk/high-reward falls into it. It is perhaps a bit more noticeable with Gremlins because they also were intended to have a decisive advantage in activations that, unfortunately, with every book gets lower and lower.

Personally I think the entire faction needs a rewrite (truthfully I think it is time for a third edition, especially one that improves the unused elevation rules). I would like to see the faction return to the "character" it started with. And again for the old salts...I am not talking about overpowered...I am talking about making the characteristics actually mean something (like they do in Gremlins). Models that are themed together should function best together and not the same regardless of Master, Henchman, Crew, or theme. Factions should have distinct identities that are only violated rarely, Crews so be even more stringent.

As is, Malifaux isn't like this. The character is gone and the feel of the game has followed it. It used to feel like each game of Malifaux was a part of a larger narrative and also a sequence in an RPG. With the model bloat, symmetric strategies (the worst of it for me), center weighting of the strategies and schemes, and the emphasis on only a handful of "competitive" models (which is funny considering each book is supposed to provide more options and not less), the game has become no different than other offerings. Each game feels the same and is completely disconnected from previous or future ones.

I used to really enjoy playing games. Win or lose it always felt fresh. I have found myself playing less and less of Malifaux and more and more of other games. Though the story encounter mode still provides an enjoyable diversion, it is difficult to find players willing to even try it. Might help if this "official" portion of the game was supportable by the companies in App encounter generator, instead of only the three competitive formats. I have also observed several communities around the country which used to be extremely vibrant, shrink or disappear completely. Recruiting new players has also become more difficult.

While this may appear to be an overly negative view, my goal is to improve the game and expand the player base. As is I don't see current or subsequent books achieving this. Dismiss this if you feel like it, or attack it if you must, these are my observations and no more or less correct than anyone else.

@Aaron One minor suggestion for the collection manager. Currently it does not allow for quantification of models that may be owned in multiples (i.e. Bayou Gremlins, Witchling Stalkers, Rotten Belles, etc) can this be added in a future update (read as not overly pressing but a nice to have down the road).

Was hoping this would have the story modes in the encounter options but the rest of it is nice. Absolutely love the price by the way.

I used the Scion of Black Blood as the basis for the openings. The only potential issue is bases larger than 30mm, the whole board was designed for the 2-player starter so 40mm+ bases wont fit in some areas.

Here are two with the 2-player starter models for scale.

Apologies for the crappy focus job really should have increased the depth of field to get a crisper image.

Good looking Zipp you have there. Wish I had thought about adding a jolly roger to the rear fin of mine.

9 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Shrug, I kind of agree about book 4 being kinda underwhelming even if it's not what you meant. Banjonistas are the only model that's really fun and new imo. Zipp is ok, but the rest of the book is kinda boring I think.

While I like Zipp, I agree that he isn't great, especially considering the stuff other factions received in that book. You can call it faction envy if you must, but the fact remains other factions are getting several great models/ upgrades per book (many of which are autonomous) while we are getting mostly lukewarm ones. As a faction, we aren't even that great at what we are supposed to be. Big Brain Brin is a perfect example of that. He is an expensive model that is built around supporting cheaper models, however, we can't hire enough of the cheaper models to make the investment worth it. This is especially true given the small bubbles we have to cluster in and the overall delicate nature of our models. The only model I am somewhat excited about from the new book is the Bokor and even there, they are going to be decent until your opponent just kills them first. Your experiences and opinions may vary but I have found my Gremlins much less enjoyable to play as each book is released.

On 10/16/2017 at 7:00 AM, Eorek said:

This is true, I could see myself bringing him as a backfield piece handing out sober ya up to pieces going after jack daw. 

I don't have his card on hand, but can he use it on peons? Say the pigapult. 

Big Brain Brin can use Sober Ya Up on the Pigapult. The action doesn't have a prohibition against Peons. He can not use his 0 action The Same Thing We Always Do on it to gain Reactivate because as lame0 points out it is neither a Minion nor Wp 4 or less. Calculate the Possibilities might be worth a look with the Pigapult, though it is another 7 SS support piece for an already expensive Pigapult. The option to discard the three cards instead of placing them back on top of the deck is nice though (though it requires a different suit than is included in the starting value unless that is a misprint).

I don't think he is horrible, just a bit underwhelming, though I have felt that way about a lot of the new Gremlin releases. It would be nice if his Biting Insult attack had a better range than it does or if his Df stat also had an inbuilt   to operate his Defensive trigger. I dont think either of these would have been game breaking on him.

The hedgerows are very easy and most importantly cheap. I got this from one of the old Citadel How to Make Terrain books.

Go to your local DIY store (though a grocery store will work as well). Buy a big bag of scotch brite heavy scouring pads like these:

You might get more for your buck at the DIY stores, particularly if you buy generic. The ones I used were not scotch brite but I have enough material to build a full on 3' by 3' hedge maze table if I so desire.

Cut them double the height you want. Fold in half and use hot glue to stick the halves together (you can try other glues but in my experience, Hot Glue works the best with the least amount of mess). Once the glue has set run an Exacto knife across the top edge to get it to separate and flatten out (you are not trying to completely cut through, only score). After this grab some clippers and snip some irregularities in the edges to add interest. Spray black and then dry brush various green shades until you are happy with the result. To give them some strength when you attach them to the base material (in my case the board itself), use some toothpicks or bamboo skewers fixed into the base material and then push them through the middle of the hedges. If you want to make them "flower" you can dot some white, yellow, purple, or red paint irregularly to produce the effect.

Hope that helps.

Also if interested I can take some pictures with the 2 player starter crews to show some scale.

12 hours ago, Dominion said:

putting swill on shinobis is, most of the time, useless, you will always prefer putting it on enemy's, denying it's ability to cheat and giving the moon shinobi an effective MI7 with their green fists

1

This is my largest complaint with the Moon Shinobis. They don't have a method of generating their own modifiers (not damage) without the Brewmaster. Without this extra benefit, you are really paying a premium for severe damage potential of 4 compared to many other available models both in faction and out.

Again compare the Moon Shinobis against the Fermented River Monks targeting a model with multiple instances of Swill on it. The Fermented River Monks are going to come out ahead every time...the Brewmaster can provide Posion+2 as a 0 action (during those early turns when it is less important to have Drinking Contest up) making the Fermented River Monks match the Moon Shinobi's Df while also increasing their damage profile at all categories by 2 with their inbuilt trigger (which means their weak damage matches the Moon Shinobi's severe and also that  damage flips don't really matter anymore baring the possibility of that Black Joker showing up which is really a concern no matter which way or you affect the damage flip) for 1 attack, and they don't take damage from or lose the Poison Condition like the Moon Shinobi do.

If the Moon Shinobi could generate their own modifiers thru either a 0 action or accumulated Poison Condition then they could potentially edge out the Fermented River Monks but as is they really are the less optimal choice.

As always your experiences may differ and if nothing else the discussion may at least incite the Wyrdos to at least take another look at them for possible rebalancing.

14 hours ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

I use Wesley more than any other to apply Binge to the Moon Shinobi. With Brewmaster, that's a lot of sources for the  ! 

2

I assume you are talking about Hangover and not Binge. While this is definitely an option those modifiers are generally better served on an opponents model (where it benefits the entire crew) than your Moon Shinobi (which are the only beneficiaries).  Additionally, Wesley isn't nearly as good at throwing out Swill as the Brewmaster, can only provide 2 modifiers per activation, and is a fairly squishy high priority target. The Moon Shinobi need a method of generating their own modifiers independent of the Brewmaster.

@Runeman I don't agree that Moon Shinobi are that complicated really, they just pale in comparison to other options available. Particularly those that don't require a ton of additional support to make work. This is why the Fermented River Monks are often the superior option. Even when you add in the potential support from the Brew Master, the Fermented River Monks come out ahead. Sure the Brew Master and Wesley could throw out potentially 5 modifiers on a pair of Moon Shinobi but have they really improved that much? Defense wise they might be more difficult to hit (because they get to draw up to 4 cards and can cheat) and offensively they might hit more often (again because they can potentially draw up to 4 cards and cheat) but your opponents models can still cheat and the damage profile is exactly the same. The Fermented River Monks in the same situation (though with Brewmaster and Wesley throwing   modifiers on two key enemy models instead) can have more effect, particularly if they have built up some Poison on themselves. The Monks are more difficult to hit (because affected opponents models won't be able to cheat and have to take the lowest card unless they can somehow generate enough   modifiers to offset it. This is before you consider that Poison 2 gives them Df 6) and will do more damage at the valuable weak and moderate levels than the Moon Shinobi (before you even consider the in-built Drunken Strength trigger damage addition). We don't even need to discuss the Monks ability to generate their own reactivate, which can be huge in a lot of situations.

As I have said in other threads, I really want to like the Moon Shinobi, absolutely love the models, but as is they just aren't a good option in a lot of circumstances.

@Runeman The Moon Shinobi definitely need some changes.

I would start by lowering their points cost to 5SS so they better compete with the Ten Thunders Fermented River Monks (yes I know the upgrade to hire them in Gremlins is 2 SS so a pair of monks costs the same as a pair of Moon Shinobi but I still consider the Fermented River Monks the superior option). Following that, I would give the Moon Shinobi either an immunity to Poison Damage and remove That's the Stuff (replacing it with their 0 action Where'd you get that into a once per activation ability) or change That's the Stuff to provide modifiers instead of a push. The latter is probably a better solution as it makes them more viable outside of the Brew Master's crew without making them over the top.

This would put the Brew Master in a more competitive spot within the faction as his crew would then fit more in line with the denial/debuff, tarpit, slow attrition concept they seem to be intended for.

I tend to agree with you @edoperischetti the Moon Shinobi really need something outside of the Brew Master' actions to provide the all-important modifiers for them to pull their weight over other options.

Can we have Napolenny riding a war pig like the famous Napoleon painting below:

Or perhaps his log can be done up like a hobby horse and mimic the same pose. And yes Napolenny should be modeled with a hand tied blanket cape or perhaps set of bloomers.

It should restore paints that aren't completely dry, though if you let them sit in the mixture long enough it might even restore those.

My mix is:

• 1 part Liquitex Gloss Medium
• 1 part Liquitex Matte Medium
• 2 parts Liquitex Flow Improver
• 1 part Distilled Water

MIx this up in a separate "squirt" bottle like this:

This may shift your paints final finish toward Satin vice matte or eggshell. If you find it is more semi-gloss or gloss then you are using too much Gloss medium.

What this is doing is adding more of the binding agents to the paint (gloss and Matte mediums) and also "loosening" the paint particles to restore fluidity (Flow Improver and Distilled Water). I would not recommend omitting any of the components as each is doing something a bit different to the paint.

For your "gloppy" paints be sure to add a plastic agitator or two to the pots (if you aren't already doing this). I recommend purchasing a bag of plastic beads (usually found in the kid's arts and crafts area when you pick up your additives. With those in the pot and a few drops of the above mixture you then shake the hell out of the paints. It may take a bit of effort at first and you may need to add a bit more of the mixture as you go. Biggest advice is not to be in a rush, you can always add more but removing too much is really not feasible. An electric back massager like this:

can make this step more effective and less tiring on your wrists. Put your paints in one of those thin plastic tackle boxes. Place that on a pillow and then run the massager over the tackle boxes lid. If they are really gloppy or you just really want everything well mixed, you can use a large rubber band or strap to fix the massager to the tackle box and let it run for a while. This is the type of box I am talking about:

You can usually find them in the same arts and crafts stores you get the rest of the stuff in.

One last suggestion is every few weeks or so (when painting regularly) add a few drops of the mixture to your paints. If you typically go long periods between paint sessions you might try adding some Liquitex Slow-Dri to the above mixture. If you go this route I would recommend trying 1/2 part to the above mixture. If you are comfortable with wet blending you might go as high as 1 part. I don't generally do this myself so you may need to experiment a bit to get the right ratios. Instead, what I do is just add a bit of the mixture into the paint pots and let it sit on top (no agitation). This has worked well for me.

Hopefully, some of this will help you out (or others that may have the same issues). I use Liquitex because it is easier to find, available in larger quantities, and generally cheaper than the hobby specific stuff.

11 hours ago, Totzro said:

I mostly use GW Citadel paints because that's what I'm used to. It's annoying though that their bottle design makes them dry up from time to time.

 

I can suggest a custom mix of additives that will assist in keeping your paints from drying out if you are interested. MIne are going on 6 years old and with the exception of the dry brush and texture paints, are as fluid as the day I bought them.

On 9/5/2017 at 1:31 PM, Guildenstern said:

Trixiebelle, really don't care for her model

It'd be funny to see her with a parasol, a lacy victorian style dress (maybe a tiny pig to hold or put on base? as a pet), slightly raising one stockinged leg up out of her shoe

So something like this:

On 8/29/2017 at 9:38 PM, -Loki- said:

Can we finally get this? Pretty please?

 

That isn't that difficult to convert from the existing line. I did something similar with the old metal models (Skeeter and Mindless Zombie).

21 hours ago, Rosskov said:

Or a swashbuckling bayou gremlin (think a tiny captain Morgan / black beard) for zipp 

Perhaps this would be a great time to recycle that old Twisted model Dwead Piwate Rupprecht.

Alt Lenny in a Tuxedo and Top Hat.