When does a model gain Slow/Fast?

[MrDeathTrout]

 

Some traits are based off models gaining non-stackable condition like Slow (or Fast).  I'm wondering when models are considered to gain conditions and when does an ability require them to gain a condition to take effect.

 

 

Quote

 

Big Book pg 39
A model immune to a Condition can never receive the Condition. If an Attack (or other source) causes damage and applies a Condition to a model, the model still suffers the damage, but it would not gain the Condition if it is immune. If a model gains immunity to a Condition while it has the Condition, it immediately removes the Condition.

Immunity:  This seems pretty straight forward.  If you are immune to Slow you cannot gain Slow.  So an effect that requires you to gain Slow to take effect will have no effect.

 

Quote

 

Big Book pg 52
Conditions presented without a value in their name do not stack, and a model that would get a second instance of a Condition simply ignores it (the second instance is not applied).

 

Stacking:  This also seems pretty straight forward.  If you have Slow you cannot gain Slow.  So an effect that requires you to gain Slow to take effect will have no effect.

 

Quote

 

Big Book pg 52
Fast and Slow cancel each other, remove both the model if both are present at the same time. 

 

Cancelling: If you have Fast and Slow at the same time you lose both.  So if an effect giving Slow targets a Fast model that model gains Slow, then they cancel each other out and both are removed.  So an effect that requires you to gain Slow to take effect will take effect.

 

Quote

Tara's Temporal Shift: All models in p6 gain Fast. Then, this model discards three cards, or its whole hand. This action may only be taken if at least one enemy model would gain Fast from this Action.

Temporal Shift: If the only enemy model that would gain Fast is already Fast they cannot gain Fast, to this action cannot be taken.

 

Quote

 

Hoffman's On Site Assimilation
Tap Power: When this model Activates, it may make target friendly Construct within 3" gain Slow to grant this model Fast.

 

On Site Assimilation: If Hoffman gives Slow to a Fast construct it would gain Slow then the two would cancel and both would be removed.  Then Hoffman would gain fast.

I'm pretty sure if Hoffman targets a Construct that is Immune to Slow or that already has Slow it cannot gain Slow, so Hoffman does not gain fast.  The presence of the word to makes the second part of this action conditional on the successful completion of the first part(I think), but it is not as explicitly worded Temporal Shift, so I can see an argument the other way.

 

What does everyone else think about anything above?

 

 

[Grrn]

Since this topic has already been posted here in some form, I'm going to repost a bit of what I had on a Wyrd Place.  Italics for my initial post.

Rules question time:
If Hoffman uses On Site Assimilation's "Tap Power" ability on a model that already has slow, does he gain fast?

I would argue yes, so here is my justification.

Tap Power says that:

Quote

it may make a target friendly construct within 3" gain slow to grant this model fast

In order to gain fast the pre-requisite is that the construct "gains slow".

So what does gains slow mean?

There are two relevant passages that seem like they contradict each other initially, but I don't think they do. (I'll note here, that I now think that there is contradiction here)

First, under the Conditions heading of the basic rulebook, second paragraph, last sentence:

Quote

Conditions presented without a value in their name do not stack, and a model that would get a second instance of a Condition simply ignores it (the second instance is not applied).

With this passage it is clearly stated you don't apply the second instance of slow.

Second, under the Activations section subheading Generate AP, second paragraph:

Quote

A model may only gain extra AP from a source once. For instance, a model that gains the fast condition multiple times would only gain the benefits of fast once.

This is an example of the word gain being used in a circumstance that would imply that you can gain a condition more than once even if it doesn't stack. This implies that there is a difference between "gaining" a condition and "applying" a condition (which to be fair I assumed were the same thing before this second passage was pointed out to me).

Conclusion: Gaining a condition is different from applying a condition. You can gain a condition multiple times, therefore a construct already slowed can gain slow, but slow is never applied, therefore Hoffman can be granted fast from a construct gains slow even if it already has the slow condition.

So this was my initial post, which points out most of the relevant passages (which I believe the OP missed the passage about multiple instances of fast, which is important).  During this discussion there was also a post that pointed out the following:

On pg. 39 of the big rule book under the Immunity subheading

Quote

A model immune to a condition can never receive the condition.  If an attack (or other source) causes damage and applies a condition to a model, the model still suffers the damage, but it would not gain the condition if it is immune.  If a model gains immunity to a condition while it has the condition, it immediately removes the condition.

I cannot speak to intent, as I was not involved in the creation or testing of this, but it seems that the words gain and apply are used interchangeably in some places, but perhaps not in others.  If they are used interchangeable, then the example under generating AP I believe contradicts the later passages such as the one just above.

Since there is contradiction here, I believe that this is FAQ worthy.  Its not a major issue as this has come up exactly once in several hundred games, but an issue nonetheless.

[Ludvig]

You seem to have gotten it right. Hoffman can't slow an already slow model to give himself fast.

This might also be the most thorough rules question I have ever come across, nice work!

[MrDeathTrout]

@Grrn  We ran into the exact same situation last week which is what prompted me to dig into the rules and sort out when slow/fast is gained and when it is not, and to post this to see if I got it all right.  The fact that I posted to double check my work I think shows the answer is not completely obvious even once you searched the rules.  I agree a FAQ entry would be nice.

That said it is clear in my mind you would not gain the condition a second time.  The "Conditions presented without a value in their name do not stack..." (rule 1) is very clear.

The "A model may only gain extra AP from a source once. For..." (rule 2) rule muddies the water, but does not directly contradict rule 1.  It references a situation that cannot exist due to rule 1, but I would say it is poor choice of an example more than a direct contradiction.

[Myyrä]

Yeah, I'm not sure where the question is but everything seems correct. 

[MrDeathTrout]

The title is the question.  Whether or not a model is considered to gain a condition in different situations, can take a little digging. And since some traits require you to give slow/fast/etc. to take effect, can be important.  Just wanted to make sure I sorted it all out correctly.