Surrealistik

#1: You have to keep in mind that top factions which were already placing better than guild also got some really nice goodies, and few major cuddles. Arcanists for example, they had what, the Colette cuddle? I think that relative to other competitive/top factions Guild came out of Wave 4 and this errata wave less strong overall, yes. #2: It's not utterly crippling perhaps but it is definitely significant. #3: Lucius is nothing to me as is the Guardian; these changes are purely bitter. I doubt that current Sonnia crews are better than precuddle papabox. #4: Disagree. Austringers are still generalists, but less powerful generalists. I do agree that it would be difficult to throw around fucktons of errata as compensation for their cuddling but it would still be preferable. Again I agree with changing Austringers to be less omnipotent, but I disagree with the way they were Cuddled, and the lack of account for the fact that they were the pillar/hub of Guild lists. Also yes, I think in balance between the scheme changes and this, GG2017 is going to be GG for Guild unless another errata comes to our rescue in 6 months.

I acknowledge this (they weren't 'too strong' in terms of interfaction balance, but definitely in terms of intrafaction balance). What I am saying is that these cuddles were bad for Guild competitively, and that there were better ways of achieving this goal that didn't mean adversely impacting Guild at the competitive level.

Again, I don't count the new wave stuff as being a part of the cuddles; it is separate and distinct; we had them prior to the cuddles; they weren't added with the intention of counterbalancing or necessitating the cuddles or otherwise acting as compensation for them. Further, I don't agree even with the more reasonable argument that post new wave and the cuddles, we're in a better or static position overall competitively. Papa out of the box is definitely weaker than Papa in the box; I don't see how this is a point of dispute. Also the idea that these changes are fine, that Sonnia is stronger than ever, and I just need to L2P is as asinine as it is insulting; 2x Austringer Papabox was indeed optimal once upon a time; it's not a question of L2P so much as that they were really that good; further, these cuddles were made for a reason, namely because the individual models/synergies were too strong. Unfortunately what Wyrd failed to account for is the broader inter-faction balance. 'Opening the meta' by presenting Guild with a bunch of choices that are only interesting because Austringers were diminished and Papabox was killed is great for other factions competitively, but not so much for us. I would have preferred that the Austringer be made more specialized and keyed to certain schemes, and other models were buffed to be similarly specialized, so that you have many powerful options and interesting choices, but only under the right circumstances, so you have to make good strategic decisions when list building as opposed to 2x Austringers being a complete no-brainer in the vast majority of lists.

In general I think a lot of you are looking at the changes through some seriously rose tinted glasses. Bottom line, Guild is definitely worse at competitive level play, and it was _not_ a problem faction in this respect to begin with; this is the fundamental issue. To emphasize, a reasonably balanced faction at top-high level play was diminished to the point where it may no longer be viable there. Were Austringers overtly centralizing? Yes. Should they have been changed? Absolutely; but not without something else to pick up the slack at higher level play as Guild's competitiveness was largely upheld by them, which we simply didn't get (Lucius/Guardian buffs simply don't compensate for a blow to one of our best and most universal tools; we needed a buff to something that could fit in any list to compensate; for example, maybe Guild Guard could be made not shit? Alternately turning Austringers and other models into powerful specialists would have been even more preferable). Sonnia is straight up weaker; took a considerable cuddle and got nothing in return. Was she competitively strong with Papabox? Yep. Problematic? Nope. Net result? One of our most competitive (but balanced) masters became significantly less competitive. By the way, this isn't even getting into scheme changes.

Not quite.

In actuality we already had those, and Guild wasn't in a problematic or dominant position between the time it acquired these new tools and the cuddle. Except for the whole Austringer cuddle, which both certainly use. Also Sonnia's been pretty much gutted; nothing compares to Papabox for her.

With the recent cuddles I think Guild is in serious jeopardy of either being underpowered or no longer among the truly competitive factions. Losing Papabox and Austringer sniping/board control and getting nothing in return hurts.

It is a fair point that a Wp heavy meta can definitely warrant Queeg/Sidir. Having that vs Lure (or other forced move that tears Hoffman apart) gives you a chance to resist vs virtually none at all.

The Wk 4 is what really hurts him IMO; that and not being able to take By Your Side with Numb AND Promises. If he had Wk 5, and BYS was built in, I'd run him more frequently. Giving him HtK certainly wouldn't hurt either because he can be a bit squishy, and it synergizes nicely with the whole bodyguard thing/self heal.

I think it should be baked in; now you have some sweet synergy with Numb while still being able to take Promises.

Definitely worth it with Nellie, Lady J, and McMourning; I don't think it's ambiguous in their cases given they run melee murder balls when they're looking to kill, and they still have a decent # of activations.

Exactly. It's the opportunity cost that really hurts as does the Wk 4, and I definitely agree that it's hard to justify Sidir over the alternatives for Hoff, even though he is pretty good. You could go for 8 SS Queeg to save a couple of SS (and lose Sidir's sweet range/forced movement block), but again, I think the opportunity cost is probably too high.

It'd be decent I think with Sidir who also runs By Your Side to cockblock forced movement which Hoffman's crew is exceedingly vulnerable to, but it comes at a pretty considerable tax given it's thrown on a non-construct. I'd say it's good, but probably not as good as it is on most other Guild masters.

I'm not saying that Promises is a must pick for every list. Sonnia definitely has better things to spend the points on for example, but virtually every other Guild master with the exception of say Hoffman and Lucius (who cares about him though) gets tons of mileage from it. I'd consider it verging on mandatory for the likes of McMourning and Justice and is probably mandatory for Nellie if you're aiming to kill stuff (seriously, the Phiona + Promises + Propaganda + Frank wombo is disgusting), while it's merely great for everyone else (dat soft immunity to WP duels for Perdita's family models).

Here's the thing; Promises on legs for 8 SS I'd consider to be super aggressively costed in several crews given what Promises does.