Santiago vs Doppleganger

[Masque]

What happens when Santiago shoots at a Doppleganger engaged with a friendly Family member? I'll Cover You! and Which One Is Real!?! both prevent cards from being flipped to randomize the target. Best guess is no cards are flipped and nobody gets targetted and the action is wasted.

[The Godlyness]

I would say Santiago shoots just fine. But not looking at the cards atm. Reasoning is you never start the process to randomize so doppleganger would not be able to hide.

[sharpobjects]

Both models abilities disregard the randomizing for a target when shooting into an engagement. I believe Santiago would be free to shoot the Doppelganger in the face.

Nice catch, I have not seen this interaction on the table yet.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I would argue the shot fails. The rules for shooting into combat specify what happens when you attempt to do so. You MUST flip a card for all potential targets. You cannot do so, and so I would argue the action fails because you cannot complete the required steps.

It would be like arguing that a model that required a corpse marker to be discarded in order to undertake an action, and then arguing that because you were not able to do so the rest of the action could still be undertaken.

That's how I see it. You shoot into a combat involving two models that cannot be flipped for. You Must flip to determine the final target. You cannot flip, therefore the shot has no target and therefore fails.

[sharpobjects]

Your "Must" example of the core rules is covered on page 28: Breaking the Rules.

Models in Malifaux have many unique rules which override the core rules.

In the rare instance that two special rules contradict each other, the more specific of the two rules takes precedence.

One says does not flip and the other says never flips. Never is more specific than does not?

Either way someone is getting shot, i disagree that its a miss.

[Fetid Strumpet]

What rule makes it so either way someone is getting shot? Nothing in the rules supports one of them must actually be the target. The more specific case is you must do something both models prevent. The flip determines the actual final target, which you can't make. Ergo the action fails, as you cannot finalize a target.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this and see what the developers think.

[sharpobjects]

The flip determines the actual final target, which you can't make. Ergo the action fails, as you cannot finalize a target. We will just have to agree to disagree on this and see what the developers think.

The flip your referring to is just not being made period. The way I see it (I may be incorrect) you move on to the next step which would be the opposed duel.

There are models that have abilities that skip the randomizing of targets when shooting into engagements (Ramos) and moves on to the opposed duel, skipping the "Must" part of the core rule of randomizing for a target.

I guess with that example in my mind the randomizing is something that can be skipped/ignored under specific circumstances where models abilities override the core rules.

I agree that it may need an explanation in an Faq by the Dev's because I don't see it as black and white. I don't care if I'm right or wrong I just want to play it correctly if I run into the situation during a game.

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

With regards to the conversation;

Can a model with the doppelgangers ability ever be the target of a ranged attack as long as she is engaged with an enemy model?

If she only has one enemy model engaged with her do you still flip a card for the one enemy model even though your not randomly determining anything?

Does this mean if I wanted to shoot my own model, the doppelganger in this instance, I cant as long as she is engaged with an enemy model?

The same question could be asked for Santiago shooting into an engagement with one family member and an enemy model that does not have the doppelganger ability. Does Santiago's ability prevent him from shooting his own model even if he wanted to?

[The Godlyness]

My mind. Target doppleganger next flip. Skipping the random due to Santiago ignoring it. If your start the process to randomize tjen the gangers abilty never comes into conflict.