Deliver a Message and Self-Sacrifice

[Ryu]

In a shared Deliver a Message could you purposely run your own master off the board to deny the opposing master the chance of delivering the message?

Alternatively, could you simply kill your master to do the same? Seems dirty to me but possible.

[arkno]

you cannot go off the board but you can kill him yourself yes.

[Solidus]

Never came across some one purposely running there own model off the table, the only ruling I can think of is from falling back even then they have to start there falling back action already at the table edge.

Killing your master to prevent Vp's is legal albeit giving yourself a pretty good disadvantage.

[Ryu]

I thought that anyone starting a move at the edge of the board and trying to move off was immediately sacrificed, regardless of falling back or not? It's just never really used because you practically never would want to do that?

That could simply be a rules misunderstanding though.

[Tigerstyle]

Never came across some one purposely running there own model off the table, the only ruling I can think of is from falling back even then they have to start there falling back action already at the table edge.

Killing your master to prevent Vp's is legal albeit giving yourself a pretty good disadvantage.

Minion Hamelin could do it as well with his Pipers Lure spell. Use that to push your own master into the table edge to kill them (providing they aren't immune to Influence).

Edited February 26, 2013 by Tigerstyle

[Ausplosions]

That could simply be a rules misunderstanding though.

It is.

[sharpobjects]

Nope you can't push a model off the table. Lets put it this way. The world isn't a small square patch of ground floating in midair. If a model is pushed off the edge it doesn't fall into the oblivion, so it could just walk back into the play area.. When a model Falls Back while on the board edge it is running for it's life and therefore not likely to rejoin the battle.

On a more serious note you can't Push a model to a location you couldn't Walk to. You can't walk off the board so you can't Push a model off the board. Similar to the discussion a while back about whether you could push a model straight up, nope as you can't Walk directly up.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?31869-Can-a-Model-be-pushed-off-the-table&highlight=pushed+board

[Ausplosions]

Pipers lure is an exception though.

[dgraz]

Well, I think it is cleared up that you can't just walk off the board, but you could kill your own master....and since you'd be the one controlling both the attack and defense duels it shouldn't be too difficult to do.

IMO it's a pretty cheesy thing to do and I'd never do it personally. That said, in a highly competitive environment (where I choose to NOT play), an argument can certainly be made for its usefulness. If you have an extremely fast master or crew that can jump out there and secure several VPs early in the game.....and all you have to do is deny your foe VP for the rest of the game......killing your own master would fit the bill in that situation.

Again, not fun IMO and I probably wouldn't play against someone very often who did that type of thing in a casual game.

[PokiePrawn]

Another cheesy thing is the sacking your models for SS (can't remember the name of that ability). There are a lot of cheesy ways players can manipulate that. It might be nice for tournaments to put in a rule not allowing those actions.

[Ryu]

Yeah, I'm not arguing it would be fun. I don't think that's being debated by anyone. It's simply an idea I had pop into my head and I went, "huh..." Mostly about the walking off the board rule. You could, of course, always shoot your master to death.

@PokiePrawn: You're thinking of drain souls: (1) Sacrifice up to 3 models for SS and all your non-leader models get a permanent -1WP. That can certainly be a viable (read: not necessarily fun) strategy for denying VPs too.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Ryu

[dgraz]

Yeah, I'm not arguing it would be fun. I don't think that's being debated by anyone. It's simply an idea I had pop into my head and I went, "huh..." Mostly about the walking off the board rule. You could, of course, always shoot your master to death.

@PokiePrawn: You're thinking of drain souls: (1) Sacrifice up to 3 models for SS and all your non-leader models get a permanent -1WP. That can certainly be a viable (read: not necessarily fun) strategy for denying VPs too.

It was much worse not too long ago when you could use Drain Souls to sac your own master. Thankfully that was fixed.

[PokiePrawn]

That rule is interesting in some ways, but creates such potential for cheese I think it should just be removed. Could it be changed to an uncheatable resist, or within base contact, or your opponent gains a vp for every soul sacked? Easy fixes that might take the cheese out of the rule.

Also, for those Master sacrifice/kill strats (deliver a message), can there just be some rule about killing your own master results in 2-4vp? That way it is still possible, but unlikely to help you.

Just some thoughts. It makes some strats/schemes pretty useless to play if they can be cheesed so easily. I know the argument about not wanting to play with players who do that, but there should be some easy solution in a more competitive environment.

[Ryu]

That rule is interesting in some ways, but creates such potential for cheese I think it should just be removed. Could it be changed to an uncheatable resist, or within base contact, or your opponent gains a vp for every soul sacked? Easy fixes that might take the cheese out of the rule.

Also, for those Master sacrifice/kill strats (deliver a message), can there just be some rule about killing your own master results in 2-4vp? That way it is still possible, but unlikely to help you.

Just some thoughts. It makes some strats/schemes pretty useless to play if they can be cheesed so easily. I know the argument about not wanting to play with players who do that, but there should be some easy solution in a more competitive environment.

I totally agree. In tournaments some things are just too easy to cheese, most organizers will avoid such things one would hope.

It can also be argued that denial (MOBA style) is a viable strategy since it is consuming resources that generally cannot be replaced (even for summoning masters you're killing something and then spending resources to get something else).

[CRC]

What if you could deliver the message to the other masters "corpse" for 2 VPs? (where corpse is a marker dropped specifically for this purpose, not a corpse counter.)