LoS on Elevated Ground

[Evilbleachman]

I was playing a game the other day and we came up to a situation, which kind of sparked a debate on LoS rulings.

To the left you have my opponent's Young Lacroix, which is elevated on a Ht 2 Terrain piece, thus making him technically a Ht 3 model, when determining LoS.

To the right, you have at an elevated Ht of 0 my Pandora and immediately behind her a Sorrow. Both are Ht 2 models.

The dispute went along the lines of me arguing that he cannot target my Sorrow, because my same Ht sized model is blocking the LoS.

Her argued that since he was elevated much higher he could target the model behind my model instead.

I can understand this, if the model had actually been further away from the other one. In this case two same height models would technically block the LoS to the other one. Especially from that distance.

What do you guys think? What is the solution?

We solved the case by letting him shoot on my Sorrow.

[Ratty]

I have to agree with Donks. It is kind of a whacky rule that could use a little tweaking. It is abusive in a way. All I can really do is suggest a home rule against such a style, since it doesn't make sense. I would only change that a model casts a shadow as well as a building and any base completely within the shadow is 'untouchable' as such. At least those with the blockable feature.

It's not really that Wacky when you think about it. Let's take a similar situation, the LaCroix is on Ht 0 instead of a hill and the Sorrow it's a smidgen of an inch to the left. Even though you can only see a mm of the base you have LoS and as models do not give cover can shoot the Sorrow normally.

The same is true in your situation. You can see a smidgen of the Sorrows head so you have LoS to it, and as Pandora doesn't give cover you can shoot it normally.

All of this because people are generally not concrete cylinders, but people shaped, so generally you can see someone standing behind them. How many times have you seen Judge Dredd shoot a perp using a civ as a human shield, and I somehow doubt the Sorrow in this case is using Pandora as a shield.

---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 AM ----------

If you wanted to take it to the extreme, a Ht 2 model on a Ht 3 ramp could draw LoS to any model on the table except for those blocked by flat elevations or with special rules interfering with LoS. To me that just sounds ridiculous and should be errata'd. I don't think there should be any way in which a combined Ht 5 model can target a model behind a Ht 10 building that just happens to not have a flat roof.

Er.. NO!....

If you have a model that is Ht2 on a Ht3 building. It is Ht5. It can never see past a Ht10 building slopped or flat as the obstructing building is taller than it.

Shadow only comes into effect if a building is lower than the models shootings Ht. So if you have a Ht2 Zoraida on a Ht3 Building it can't see past a Ht5 building, and any flat building Ht4 or less will give a Shadow.

Now for the slopped roofed house. It's up to the players to decide how the terrain is declared, I declare a Ht3 House with a Ht2 roof on top as just that.. A Ht3 Flat Elevation, with a Ht2 Slopped elevation on top. This mean you would have to be Ht6 to see past it, and there would be a 3" shadow from the wall, the additional sloped roof giving no additional shadow.

I also declare walls as very thin flat elevations.

---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------

Since there is already an open thread about LOS...

[Ratty Rundown of Question:] Von Schill is on top of a Ht4 Wall, Izamu is standing next to this wall and is Ht3 with a Rg3 Badass Sword. Can Izamu wack Von Schill around the noggin?

OK. First and all important question is this.. Is Von Schill within 1" of the edge of the wall. If he is, you ignore the shadow. In other words Von Schill can see the model in the Shadow and models in the Shadow can see Von Schill. (This also means that if Von Schill is in 1" of the edge he can shoot people in the walls shadow as long as he is not in melee with an angry Izamu.)

If this is the case Izamu can LoS to Von Schill and can attempt to hit him.

So Question 2. is he in range. Measure the the distance to Von Schill Horizontally, add 1"(The difference between Izamu Ht and the Wall Ht) to this distance. If this total is less than 3" (Izamu Rg on his Weapon) Izamu can hit Von Schill.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Ratty

[Space Donkey]

Thank you for the response on that Ratty. I knew it wasn't intended to be taken like that, but with the way it is worded in the RM, it could be read in that way.

I really like your method for dealing with buildings as it makes much more sense than taking what is in the RM at face value and trying to apply something intended for ramps, hills, or other simple slopes to more complex terrain or the interaction of multiple pieces of terrain.

[Evilbleachman]

Thanks Ratty! Very insightful!

[Rhonlore]

Thanks Ratty. The diagram was throwing me off.

[keget]

Ratty,

I like what you said and understand, but I have a question. The way you explained it that any flat building cast a shadow (not just the one you are on) then brings up my following question.

If Zordia is on a ht 10 building (so she is ht 12) and just one inch away is a 2 wall/building (does not matter if you call them both flat). The Judge is next to the ht 2 wall, thus within the 2 inch shadow. Under your explanation Zordiacan not see the Judge.

In fact as long as you stand next to a wall of your height or greater and tha twall is between you and something shooting at you (regardless of height) you are safe. Is this what you intended to mean?

Thanks,

Keget

[Ratty]

Ratty,

I like what you said and understand, but I have a question. The way you explained it that any flat building cast a shadow (not just the one you are on) then brings up my following question.

If Zordia is on a ht 10 building (so she is ht 12) and just one inch away is a 2 wall/building (does not matter if you call them both flat). The Judge is next to the ht 2 wall, thus within the 2 inch shadow. Under your explanation Zordiacan not see the Judge.

In fact as long as you stand next to a wall of your height or greater and that wall is between you and something shooting at you (regardless of height) you are safe. Is this what you intended to mean?

Thanks,

Keget

Yep... It's no different to having a Ht2 flat surface with a Ht10 Zoraida standing on it. A Judge would get to hide from both.... (Well OK nothing can really hide from a Ht10 firebreathing Zoraida, but he can try) Also note the horizontal distance between Zoraida and the Judge would have to be slightly more than 1", if exactly 1" or less she would ignore the shadow.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Ratty