Damage Resolution and triggers

[Therril_83]

Here we go again. I thought I was sure how this all worked, but I recently re-read the Errata-section and realized that I am no longer sure what triggers happen in what step. To be able to make what I mean clear, I've shortened down the process a bit, you guys all know where you can find the whole thing:

1. Total the Damage being inflicted.

If the initial Damage Flip is the Black Joker, skip to Step 6 below.

2. Apply damage reduction.

3. Convert the inflicted damage total into wounds. If wounds were being inflicted instead of damage, begin here instead of Step 1.

4. Apply wound reduction.

A model able to Use Soulstones may now spend one to prevent wounds.

If any wounds remain, continue on to Step 5, if no wounds remain, skip to Step 6.

5. The model suffers any wounds remaining.

Any Triggers which occur after inflicting one or more damage/wounds occur now.

6. Any Triggers which occur after resolving damage/wounds occur now.

All nice and clear. Now to what's bothering me. There are soooooooo many different wordings on triggers. My friend and I just quickly went through the rising powers book and came up with quite a handfull of triggers. And there is no real definition on some of these concerning when the triggers mean "after going through the damage resolution process" or when they actually mean "after inflicting damage". I thought I knew of such a definition, but again, those rulings were before the creations of these documents and are no longer valid.

1 - On Hit

"...when hit by this weapon." (Cb, Watcher)

"After resolving this spell and the defender fails to resist it..." (Ca, Colette)

"After defender fails to resist this spell..." (Ca, Cassandra)

"After hitting defender with this weapon..." (Cb, Cassandra)

No question here, these happen after the attack hits, and takes no regard for damage.

2 - After resolving Damage

"After resolving a damage flip..." (Cb, Malifaux Raptor)

"After resolving damage..." (Cb, Collodi)

This also seems quite clear, they resolve after the process, in step6 above.

3 - After damaging

"After defender suffers wounds..." (Ca, Hamelin)

"Defender suffering damage..." (Cb, Freikorps Specialist)

"After wounding defender..." (Ca, Jack Daw)

"Target damaged by this weapon is..." (Cb, Hoffman)

"After damaging defender..." (Cb, Guild Hound)

"After inflicting damage..." (Cb, Ryle)

"When damaging defender..." (Cb, Lord Chompy Bits)

"If target suffers damage from this Strike..." (Cb, Night Terror)

Now this is where it gets interesting.. Some are rather clear, like Hamelin, it's in step5. But Hoffman and Guild Hound seem more ambiguous. Many of these could be considered either in step5 or step6. And one could think it makes no difference, but it makes huge difference for several reasons. One being the Black Joker for damage. If they are step5-triggers, black joker stops them from happening but not if they are in step6. Also, what happens if the model you attack is killed. If it's a step5-trigger, on-death-events happen after the trigger, if it's a step6-trigger they happen before (for example a knockback trigger being called on a model that explodes. Does the knockback happen before or after the explotion). Again, these are examples of different wordings meaning nearly the same thing. Some are clear they are in step5 or step6, others could be either. And some have had an errata (LCB atleast). I just wanted to point out the problem.

4 - The Exception

"After successfully striking defender..." (Cb, Lucius)

Uhm, what!? When the heck does this resolve, and what affects it? Does it resolve if you flip the black joker on damage? To my knowledge, this is a unique and very odd wording.. I think I would play this as a step6-trigger.

Another good example I think is Taelor. I always assumed that if you triggered Knockback and flipped a black joker, it didn't happen. But if it's a step6-trigger, it still does. And I also assumed that if she triggered Knockback and killed a Wichling Stalker, he blew up before you got to push him. If it's a step5-trigger, you do get to push him first.

In my view, this is a huge problem with Malifaux. Wyrd does need to go back and streamline wordings to remove these issues some time in the future, perhaps one year they should not produce another book to expand the system, but rather re-write all the existing rules to remove ambiguity like this.

Anyway, that's a long process in itself which won't happen overnight. For now, what I would be happy with is for someone to tell me (backed with reasoning ofcourse) what is the default meaning of "after damaging".

If I have solid ground on that atleast, I can continue reasoning with "well, it's not on hit and it's not inflicting damage/wounds ergo it must be after resolving damage" or something to that effect.

Is the default meaning after resolving the process completely, ie Step6, as I would like to believe?

Edited October 2, 2012 by DaemonChild
spelling and clarification

[CRC]

You didn't list out all the places in the DRS when triggers occur:

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(1.c) Then, any Triggers which occur when damage is inflicted occur now.

(2. Then, any Triggers which occur when damage is resisted occur now.

(4. Then, any Triggers which occur when inflicting wounds occur now.

(5.a.i) Any Triggers which occur after inflicting one or more damage/wounds occur now.

(5.b.i) First, any Triggers which occur when the model is reduced to 0 Wd occur now.

(6) Any Triggers which occur after resolving damage/wounds occur now.

Also, you shouldn't use the books when looking for ability wordings, because Wyrd make substantial changes between the books and the cards (to the vexation of many).

However, I agree with your fundamental point. Consistent wording on triggers would be very nice.

Anyway, here's some logic for you:

1. we know that the flipping Black Joker skips many/most "damage" triggers.

2. the Black Joker doesn't skip step 6.

3. therefore all the "damage/wound" triggers you reference in point 3 resolve in (5.a.i)

Here's another tack:

1. the triggers you reference have both "when" wordings and "after" wordings.

2. there is no "when resolving damage", only "when inflicting damage".

3. therefore these wordings mean "inflicting" not "after resolving".

I'd guess that "damaging" == "inflicting damage", which are both the other-model-perspecting on "suffering damage".

[baskinders]

I agree that this is pretty confusing as there is no consistency. From what I can figure out these are the times a trigger can happen, in order of application:

1. When successfully making a simple duel but before effects are applied (including successfully making a casting flip)

2. When the defender in an opposed duel loses but before effects are applied (including failing to resist a spell)

3. When determining the total amount of damage the attacker is dealing after making a damage flip.

4. When determining the total amount of damage the defender is reducing the incoming attack by.

5. When determining the total amount of wounds the attacker has caused either after converting from damage to wounds or if the attack caused straight wounds.

6. When determining the total amount of wounds the defender is reducing the incoming attack by.

7. When determining if a model has been killed/sacrificed/removed from play.

8. When you have completed the damage resolution process or completed some other effect.

So I think that flipping a Black Joker on the damage flip means you don't get to do any triggers from 3 to 6 (and more than likely 7 unless there is an additional effect of the spell that sacs/buries?!?). But you'd still get to do 1, 2 and 8?

For example, Rot would trigger at 2, but Flay, Brutal and Critical Strike would trigger at 3 and therefore be cancelled by the BJ.

The confusion comes with all of the different wordings as stated in the OP ("when damaging", "after damaging", "suffering damage" etc)

Am I on the right track?

[Therril_83]

I think when triggers can be triggered is pretty clear, the problem is knowing which ones are supposed to trigger at what step in the resolution because of vague and confusing formulations.

I suppose it's a question that needs to have it's own topic for each model that is unclear, but what I was fishing for with this topic is two things:

1) I wanted to hear other player's opinion on it and possibly wyrds aswell, but I suspect they are already aware of the issue and don't have time to answer all of these posts.

2) I want to know what the default meaning of "damaging" is. Does it actually refer to causing harm to the target model, or is normally referring to the Damage Resolution Process? Because knowing this, I can try the wording against the other statements, and if I can't deem it clear they mean any of the others, I can default back to the Step6-trigger. I think it was stated by marshals before the FAQ-documents that the default meaning was the process, but I'm not sure it still is.

[baskinders]

Yeah I guess a whole lot of the confusion for me would be fixed by clarifying if "damaging" means "after causing 1 or more damage" (and therefore doesn't trigger if BJ is flipped/ or Dg or Wds reduced to 0) OR it means "after completing the damage process regardless of the amount of damage inflicted"