Voodoo Puppet Conduit vs Dispell

[baskinders]

Had this one come up today's game, how does the Guild spell Dispell work against Zoriada's Voodoo Puppet's Conduit ability?

We played that:

1. the effect sat on the target

2. the "effect" was all of the listed things that happen (Z ignores Rng and LoS, get bonus flip and target gets Poison 2)

3. because Conduit ends when the Voodoo Dolls casts it again or the target is dead, and Dispell has no listed end time it should end in the close phase, Conduit "turns back on" at the start of the next turn.

Reading the FAQ now I'm pretty sure we got 1. wrong, cause under the Effects clarification it says the effect sits on the Voodoo Doll, is that right?

Not sure about 2. or 3. thinking about it now? Are the three things that the spell does all separate effects? And does Dispell turn it off for good if successfully cast?

Cheers guys!

[Headcase2]

1 and 2 are correct. For 3: Dispel is an immediate effect, it permanently removes whatever effect it was targetting. It also removes the entire effect (ignoring LoS, and the application of Poison 2 in the closing phase). However, any poison tokens already on the target model will remain behind until the poison has run its course or until the tokens are removed via Dispel or a similar spell.

[baskinders]

1 and 2 are correct. For 3: Dispel is an immediate effect, it permanently removes whatever effect it was targetting. It also removes the entire effect (ignoring LoS, and the application of Poison 2 in the closing phase). However, any poison tokens already on the target model will remain behind until the poison has run its course or until the tokens are removed via Dispel or a similar spell.

So when you say 1 is correct, does that mean the FAQ is wrong when it says that

"Q. Can you clarify what an effect is?

A. An effect meets all of the following criteria:

It is generated during an Encounter It sits 'on' a model

• Paralyzed sits on the model which is Paralyzed.
  
• Conduit sits on the Voodoo Doll.
  

"

And if a dispel permanently removes an effect, how does that work with effects generated by an "inbuilt, auto-on" Talent, such as Zoraida's Proper Manners. Because it doesn't remove the Talent, only "ends the effect", then the Talent remains. Does the effect of the Talent kick back in next turn?

[EnternalVoid]

No it is not wrong, Conduit's effect sits on the Voodoo doll and not the target. A lot of people miss this but if you want to dispel Conduit you have to target the Voodoo Doll and not the person it had targetted. That said I can see how people miss it as even I did the first time I read the Voodoo Doll's card. You have to look at the last line of Conduit, it says "This remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or casts Reconnect."

As for dispeling talents you can not, as they are not generated during the Encounter but is built into the model. Talents don't necessarily have the defined End time that Effects have either which is also part of the FAQ. If you look at the FAQ about effect immediately after the part you quoted is another that answers it, it says anything printed on the card but they can generate effects. Basically you can't dispel talents but if a talent produces an effect *inflicts paralyze on someone for example or creates a Counduit* you can dispel the effect they pruduce from said talent. Zoraida's proper manner is not producing an effect that "sits" on a model as much as it just is an ability that has rules. It does not produce an effect that sits on herself or her enemy with a set duration.

[baskinders]

Sweet mate, first bit makes sense.

As for dispeling talents you can not, as they are not generated during the Encounter but is built into the model. Talents don't necessarily have the defined End time that Effects have either which is also part of the FAQ. If you look at the FAQ about effect immediately after the part you quoted is another that answers it, it says anything printed on the card but they can generate effects. Basically you can't dispel talents but if a talent produces an effect *inflicts paralyze on someone for example or creates a Counduit* you can dispel the effect they pruduce from said talent. Zoraida's proper manner is not producing an effect that "sits" on a model as much as it just is an ability that has rules. It does not produce an effect that sits on herself or her enemy with a set duration.

This bit I'm a bit confused on? The RM gives a specific example of Talent that generates "inbuilt, auto-on" effects. Lifer (Talent) which makes a model immune to Morale Duels (Effect which is generated when the encounter starts, sits on the model with the talent and ends when the encounter ends). So if I'm reading that right, wouldn't Z's Proper Manners (Talent) generate an effect at the start of the encounter which sits on Z and ends at the end of the encounter, that means a negative flip for some enemy attacks? Or is that not right?

[NeuroFire]

No it is not wrong, Conduit's effect sits on the Voodoo doll and not the target. A lot of people miss this but if you want to dispel Conduit you have to target the Voodoo Doll and not the person it had targetted. That said I can see how people miss it as even I did the first time I read the Voodoo Doll's card. You have to look at the last line of Conduit, it says "This remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or casts Reconnect."

Yeah, I was surprised to learn that the first time I played against Zoraida. Fortunately I was running Perdita; I have to think her Spellbreaker ability was designed exactly for Conduit, since neither ability gets a resist flip. And, if you can manage to put the Doll's victim close to it, you can remove the poison in the same action, since it removes all effects on at least two models.

[EnternalVoid]

This bit I'm a bit confused on? The RM gives a specific example of Talent that generates "inbuilt, auto-on" effects. Lifer (Talent) which makes a model immune to Morale Duels (Effect which is generated when the encounter starts, sits on the model with the talent and ends when the encounter ends). So if I'm reading that right, wouldn't Z's Proper Manners (Talent) generate an effect at the start of the encounter which sits on Z and ends at the end of the encounter, that means a negative flip for some enemy attacks? Or is that not right?

I am going to be strait out with you, Effect and effect and what falls with in the defination is one of the hardest concepts for alot in Malifaux. I think Wyrd did a good job overall with it but it might not have been a bad idea to make another name for Effects rather than just making them caps, but then again if it had another name it might have been more confusing. Who knows for sure. Most eventually wrap their heads around what is and is not an effect and don't try to explain it much as it is kind of hard to get the idea properly across. It is far easier for many just to point and say if it is or is not one.

That said I am going to give it my best try. First I suggest ignoring my first post as I am going to have to back up a little and re-explain what I mean but hopefully better this time. First off Lifer *the talent* is not an effect in the RM section that you are thinking about. It is easy to miss but that last sentence is not refering to Lifer as a effect but the "Terrifying effects". If you read the paragraph right before again and then this paragraph you will realize they are talking about being immune to an effect and if you are immune to the effect you don't even need a duel for it. The third paragraph is the same, it is further trying to define how being immune or being able to choose your status on an effect works.

Technically you are right, when you attack Zoraida Proper Manner produces an effect, but the effect being produced is only at that moment. So the moment you attack Zoraida, Proper Manners kicks in and produces an effect. The problem is you can't dispel the effect because it only exists with in the span of that attack, and you can't Dispel Talents so you can't disable the source of the matter, ie Proper Manners. You could only dispel what the Talent generates, but as it only lasts for the attack there is nothing for you to dispel by the time you can use another AP. The only effects that Dispel technically works on is ones that Sit on the Model, like Paralyze, Slow, Fast, or effects generated by abilities and spells, Examples such as a nurse's spell effects, a Black Blood Shaman spells effects, Nekima's Nephilim Heart effect.

Again, this is kind of hard to explain and most players just get use to what it does or does not work on, and it is always a rough thing to try and convey.