Would Hamelin loose me friends?

[Oshova]

:facepalm:

+1

[graeme27uk]

To give your finger the precise direction in which it should point, I am the sole reason and fire-starter of almost all Hamelin negativity.

The reason being is;

1.) There are concise methods available that allow you to completely shutdown a very wide group of playstyles,

2.) There are also concise methods available that make it seem like everything your opponent does has absolutely no impact in the game,

3.) There are equally concise methods available that allow you cheese about your opponents in a way very much unkind.

4.) Ratswarms can take a REALLY long time to move about.

- - - - -

When the second book first dropped, one of the first things I did was run a LOT of Hamelin games where I quickly found out the best and most powerful strategies and used him to just ream the competition into the fetal position.

It didn't lose me any friends but it cost me a game group and I wish it didn't.

That's why I said you really should make sure everyone knows everything you're capable of before you run him, because there are some things he's capable of that are just pure anti-fun.

Sure there are negatives about every master that could be said.... just I guess not the same extent as Hamelin. Being Insignificant doesn't take you "out of the game" as such though does it. It just means you don't count for schemes, etc.

Which whilst a pain at least you still have that model to do stuff with.... not as bad as a dead model.

As I said, Terrifying and such would seem to be able to screw around with Hamelin crews as nothing about them makes them special against such effects.

What would a Hamelin vs aSeamus be like...

[magicpockets]

A couple of questions though:

My two common opponents play Ressers and Archanists, how do those factions deal best with the Hamster? I'd be playing to have fun, so they won't need to worry about me exploiting anything or throwing unfathomable numbers of activations at them, but what's tricks can I suggest, or which of their masters will stand the best chance.

Also, it's my impression that once a player knows how to stop the Hamster the game kind of flips sides, and suddenly I'll be the one with a :Confused_Puppet: face, banging my fists on the table and rolling on the floor crying. Is that the case? Or can the Hamster protect himself against standard tactics to shut him down: I'm concerned that if I get him and we talk through everything he brings to the table, we can establish how best to defeat him, but I'll just be shooting myself in the foot.

I wouldn't worry about this, I've played Hamelin competitively a long time (and won UK Masters with him without losing a game in the event) and whilst people can learn to play against him, he would never become disadvantaged by that. He's one of the most competitive Masters in the game imo.

Sure there are negatives about every master that could be said.... just I guess not the same extent as Hamelin. Being Insignificant doesn't take you "out of the game" as such though does it. It just means you don't count for schemes, etc.

Which whilst a pain at least you still have that model to do stuff with.... not as bad as a dead model.

Exactly

As I said, Terrifying and such would seem to be able to screw around with Hamelin crews as nothing about them makes them special against such effects.

What would a Hamelin vs aSeamus be like...

Terrifying isn't too much of an issue - soulless models ignore it (but obviously not anathema) and rat catchers can do Mouldy Cheese and then Kill all Rats to replace the fleeing rats with new ones. It's an issue, but not a huge one.

[graeme27uk]

Picked up a Hamelin crew from ebay.

Hamelin

Nix

Obedient Wretch

6 Stolen

15 Rats

2 Rat Catchers

All with Wyrd Sewer base inserts.

Cost me £75 (inc p&p) which I think was a pretty good deal. Not painted or anything and also came with all the cards.

So just need to figure out what to do with him now. And get his avatar when it's released.....

So what should I add to this. I am thinking Night Terrors would be a good choice. I have Terror Tots, though I don't think they fit his theme at all... apart from being Neverborn children...

Brutal Effigy would add some range.

Canine Remains would be themetic - not sure how effective though.

Crooligans - themetic children - again not sure how effective they would be.

Any advice?

[Trevelyan]

Since we're on the subject, I played my first Hamelin game on Friday and it did result in a few moments of definite unfun (although the other player has admitted that it was in some part due to us not finishing until he small hours of Saturday morning).

I had a pretty generic Hamelin crew (Hammy, Nix, the Wretch, a few stolen and rats) with 5ss left over. The other guy had a guild crew designed for Lucius but with Sonnia in charge (some Guild Guards with the Captain, an Austringer and a Hound, plus the Sergeant as a totem). I had Claim Jump as strategy and the guild had Destroy the Evidence.

Hamelin took up position on a raised central platform from where he could happily target much of the table and the bulk of my force swept slowly but inexorably towards the claim token, cutting off one rout to the evidence markets as they did so. The Guild focused fire on Nix (Kill Protege as a secret scheme) and my Ratcatcher as they progressed, but by the time the 'Catcher was in serious danger (trapped in melee with Sonnia) I had enough rats available that they were happy to leave him to his fate ans summon a new 'Catcher safe from the line of fire and in melee range of the Austringer.

The guild formed a gun line and took a few shots at Hammy until he stpeed back out of range, then largely bimbled about a bit. One guard made a dash for an evidence market but was rendered insignificant by Hammy and was sufficiently far from the action by that point (end of Round 4) that he played no further practical part. The combined efforts of Sonnia, the Austringer and the Hound killed Nix before the Hound and then the Austringer were killed in turn. Sonnia ended up apart from the action and made a dash for my deployment zone too late to secure the evidence market but still managed to deny my 2vp for a declared Hold Out scheme.

Final score was 6-1 to me, although had the game run to another round it could easily have gone to 4-4.

The biggest disappointment for the guild player was the insignificance of his Guard sent for the outlying market. I had a 13 in my hand that I had been holding for just such an occasion, and the Guard was unable to resist the spell. The player noted that he would have much rather had a dead Guardsman than one left alive but useless, and felt that Hamelin's ability to render targets insignificant without them having the means to prevent it (given the casting total and the Guard's low WP) was too strong.

It occurred to me that for the same action cost (2aps, one to summon a Stolen and one to sacrifice it and cast the spell) and with the same cards, my other main master, Leveticus, could have killed the Guard outright and replaced him with a SPA, rather than the rat that Hamelin received from sacrificing the Stolen. All things considered, Hamelin did no more than Levi, and even left the Guard on the table, albeit he was functionally useless in this scenario. The same player has lost with his guild crew to Levi in the past without complaint, so clearly there is something in the distinction between dead and insignificant.

I also turned the Guard Captain insignificant reasonably early on, and that didn't present a problem as he was able to continue to contribute by aiding other models. In that situation, insignificant was definitely better than dead.

We did agree that the trigger on the rat's teeth, to impose -2wp to the end of the encounter, was pretty strong, and could quite reasonably be until the end of the turn.

We also agreed that the whole rat swarm mechanic - moving multiple piddly little models twice, placing new rats, and so on, was a royal PITA. The intent is clear and thematic, but the practice is less than ideal.

Personally, I also found it hard to decide what to do with Nix. He seems to have a lot of potentially useful abilities, but they never really came off.

The upshot is that, while I plan to use Hammy at some point in future, I am somewhat inclined to wait and see what the promised errata brings. At least unless I have a chance to play against Kirai first.

[graeme27uk]

It is interesting I feel that players seem to dislike the Insignificant rather than dead. Why is that I ponder......

I can think of lots of uses for Insignificant models, but not quite so many for a dead model.

Comes back to why is Hamelin reviled whereas there are more potent and annoying master combo's potentially out there?

I'd agree that there must be a better mechanic for handling lots of models, which is going to happen with rats. But then the game is not really designed for lots of models. I wonder if the same happens with Nicodem and MZ's...

[Trevelyan]

It is interesting I feel that players seem to dislike the Insignificant rather than dead. Why is that I ponder......

I can think of lots of uses for Insignificant models, but not quite so many for a dead model.

I agree. In the very worst case scenario, an insignificant model is no worse then a dead model, and still gives you an extra activation and something that can base block the other crew. In most cases there are still a host of viable targets.

Yet it does seem to be a very genuine reaction from some people. The same guy who didn't like having two of his crew turned insignificant has happily continued playing when I've eliminated models with equal ease in other games.

[graeme27uk]

So since Hamelin seems to be in for the cuddle bashing, should Leve be in for some Cuddling as well as he can do similar things to Hamelin, come back from the dead, etc...

If not, what is the different between Levie and Hamelin that means Levie is considered "ok".

[nilus]

If not, what is the different between Levie and Hamelin that means Levie is considered "ok".

Hamelins problems are less about coming back from the dead and more about the rat swams coming back over and over

[graeme27uk]

So if the unending rat issue was solved (as in MagicPockets post) then Hamelin would be no worse or reviled than Leve?

[Sniddy]

As long as you don't abuse Hammy you're fine

In friendly play that is

In competitive play go bananas

After playing against your list - I can see why Hammy is feared....and your concerns

Nix is a solid pain to remove, the amount of firepower needed to take that thing down and what he does means you need to remove him

The rats don't DIE - and there's more of them, always more of them.....yes i know you can kill hammy kill the catcher(s) etc then kill rats, but that amount of fire power a turn would be impressive

One of the reasons I feel Levi is less reviled his death/rebirth cycle is actually easier to shut down....

Hamlin can go toe to toe with something then die and pop back up the other side of the board....Levi's need to stay within 10" of him....and they're fragile

Any ranged threats and I'd have needed to keep at least one VERY safe.....

He also needs to die every turn really to pull in cards. Hamlin is a card generating monster

Levi can focus on one thing and given the cards/stones can generally kill it - a 12 wound mod can be halfed, halfed again and then steampunked. Or he can generate more steampunks...He's a glass cannon that refreshes - so one of the best ways to deal with him is wound him....a half wounded levi is less effective....so putting 2/3 wounds on him can spell the difference between a bomb round and a bum round. Hamlin cares not for being wounded - or hard to die, or the fact you only hit by 1 and should be on negative....or cover....he's also a darn sight faster then levi - but levi can spend wounds to move, but that limits his actions

But yeh it's the never dieing rats - (unless you turn them into steampunks)....I can see cerberus being handy agaisnt them and hoarcat prides for my Marcus crew....that I feel is one of the biggest things I'll not enjoy against Hammy - I've got no problem with stuff being recyced - corpse counters becoming flesh golems - scrap turning into spiders as this all costs one of the most valuable resources, AP, you don't get something for nothing....cept hammy and his rats

I can see how he'd be so easy to break and abuse and I have a rule of never touching something I can break....I have no willpower I will create broken evilness....as it's too tempting so I think I'll shy away from Hamlin - but thats my 2 cents woth

YOU can run it and not loose friends

I'D loose friends, teeth and probably consciousness.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I have only played against Hamelin a little, so pardon the theoryfaux, but I think there are three basic issues that need to be resolved with Hamelin:

1. He comes back very easily if you kill him. (With penalties, but still more easily than Leveticus or Viktorias, and the other masters don't come back at all.)

2. Infinite rats with tons of de facto reactivation. They take a lot of time, and they usually just benefit from being killed. And if you try some sort of clever debuff, a Rat Catcher will just kill them all and proceed with another set of activations.

3. Hamelin can make everyone Insignificant, at which point they can neither hurt him, nor accomplish objectives. By end-game, enemy models are irrelevant and therefore bored.

For all three of these, the problem is: Hamelin benefits tremendously from making the game less fun for the other player, and he's really good at it. The other player is left with nothing to do.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[graeme27uk]

I don't have the v3 Leveticus card, so I may be wrong.

But, is there any way that Leveticus can turn Rats into SPA's if there is a Rat Catcher or Hamelin within 6" for Voracious Rats (VR)?

1) Death's Touch - this would kill the rat so spawning another from VR

2) Desolation - would kill and respawn rats

3) Necrotic Unmaking - Kills rats, so spawning another rat and no SPA as nothing else can be summoned from the kill

4) Unnatural Wasting - would not kill a rat anyway

5) Entropic Transformation - would sacrifice a rat, so another would not spawn, but would not summon a SPA as the rat is not a Construct. At most it would summon a Hollow Waif up to the max allowed.

So as such there is no way of creating SPA's from rats with VR in effect. Or am I missing something?

[Sniddy]

No you're right - Shoudl have read the card harder and thoruhg about the rules interaction....guess I could played silly buggers with hollow waifs doing it - but the cost in cards/stones would have been excessive

[graeme27uk]

I think there were a few things in that game that were forgotten or whatever. Leve and Hamelin have rules on rules on rules...... brain-ache.

Still, its a learning process and next time I have some other things I would like to try with Hamelin. Still like his fluff regardless..... and his avatar (model) is great!

Not as many blight counters as I would have thought though.....

Wonder if I should play him next time if anyone is willing?

[cain]

Nix is a solid pain to remove

First game with Hamelin.

Ryle: Look, a big target which does not come back! Blamblamblam. Doggie gone.

There are a lot of shooters which do 3+ dam per hit, so Nix is dead in 3 hits. If you cant activate him between for healing or hiding, hes toast.

Hamlin is a card generating monster

How many control cards does the average opponent (without extra card drawing abilities) have in the hand? 6 isnt it?

So how often does the average opponent plays a control card if you consider some of the cards are not worth cheating?

So, where is the monster card generating?

[magicpockets]

First game with Hamelin.

Ryle: Look, a big target which does not come back! Blamblamblam. Doggie gone.

There are a lot of shooters which do 3+ dam per hit, so Nix is dead in 3 hits. If you cant activate him between for healing or hiding, hes toast.

Likely Ryle will kill him, like he kills everything else in the game. But Nix is without a doubt one of the hardest minions in the game to put down.

How many control cards does the average opponent (without extra card drawing abilities) have in the hand? 6 isnt it?

So how often does the average opponent plays a control card if you consider some of the cards are not worth cheating?

So, where is the monster card generating?

Hamelin's totem can net him one per turn and Hamelin himself can net two cards per AP. I often have 10/12+ cards in my hand during a turn.

[cain]

Hamelin himself can net two cards per AP

And per model. Where do you get the models to sacrifice from? If you call a stolen and sacrifice him and the rat, you lost your masters full activation and 5 ss (or 3 if you call the rat free extra) of models to get 4 cards.

Edited June 29, 2012 by cain

[magicpockets]

Sometimes spending Hamelins AP on cards is the best thing to do. And sacking a summoned Stolen doesn't cost you 3SS, it costs you 1AP. There is a big difference and when you're playing Hamelin its an important one - you can't think of summoned models in terms of SS cost, sacrificing them is part of his natural playstyle (plus you only ever need one Stolen anyway - if any at all)

[graeme27uk]

Sometimes spending Hamelins AP on cards is the best thing to do. And sacking a summoned Stolen doesn't cost you 3SS, it costs you 1AP. There is a big difference and when you're playing Hamelin its an important one - you can't think of summoned models in terms of SS cost, sacrificing them is part of his natural playstyle (plus you only ever need one Stolen anyway - if any at all)

Isn't it wise to always keep at least one Stolen out so that Hamelin can respawn?

So what other tips do you have for playing Hamelin himself?

What other minions would work with him (without being cheesy like the Tot list)?

[cain]

And sacking a summoned Stolen doesn't cost you 3SS, it costs you 1AP.

Hm, 1 Ap would be ok, but i have to spend 2, one for summoning and one for abandoned soul to get the cards. Ok, and a free rat.

But this seems be a a personal playstyle thing, i hate sacrificing even a rat (stolen are ok) for Hamelins spells. My opponents know what to do, and my crew becomes smaller every turn even if i dont reduce it by myself.

What other minions would work with him (without being cheesy like the Tot list)?

Whenever i took something not cheap and recyclable (Candy for example), my opponent went very happy to have a first target.

I prefer canines and night terrors, both are able to give - to Wp duels, are fast, cheap and have less problems with terrifying.

[magicpockets]

Hm, 1 Ap would be ok, but i have to spend 2, one for summoning and one for abandoned soul to get the cards. Ok, and a free rat.

But this seems be a a personal playstyle thing, i hate sacrificing even a rat (stolen are ok) for Hamelins spells. My opponents know what to do, and my crew becomes smaller every turn even if i dont reduce it by myself.

I'm guessing a hint of being pedantic here *wink* - you know I was simply contrasting the thinking that a Stolen costs 3SS with the thinking that a Stolen costs 1AP. And, if you're not sacrificing your stuff you're not playing Hamelin properly (and that isn't a playstyle thing, that's how most of his abilities and spels work)

[graeme27uk]

Stolen are "made" for sacrificing. Though still not sure how you can afford multiple sacrifices per turn. Sure you can get one Stolen back but one Stolen does not compensate, so you will end up with a crew that is getting smaller.

Sacrificing rats doesn't spawn new rats, so your swarm would get smaller each turn if you used them as the sacrifice cost. The only way around this would be to get rats spawning from the enemy once you get there.

I also guess Hamelin wants to build up his control hand as large as he can in the first turn as after that his card generation gets a bit less reliable.

So, to MP, where do you get your sacrifice targets from?

[cain]

I also guess Hamelin wants to build up his control hand as large as he can in the first turn as after that his card generation gets a bit less reliable.

The problem is, he still needs to discards cards over 6 at the end of the turn. So a big hand is a good 6 hand in the next turn, but only 6. In my games i get problems around turn 4, when my hand runs out and my opponents cheat carefully.

(and that isn't a playstyle thing, that's how most of his abilities and spels work)

If i can obey a model by the pipes, i prefer this instead of casting Obedience, which costs my a model and can be resisted. Maybe iam to mean.

Technically i could play with the ratloop to outactivate, because its how they work (yet). But i dont because i try to play fair, yes even with Hamelin.

[graeme27uk]

I see the infinite-rat-loop out-activating shinanigans as a cheap trick that isn't what the designers intended. I have not stooped to do it even though it would be pretty easy to pull off.

Unless that is the way that Hamelin IS intended to play. If so, then wouldn't giving him a bonus ot the initiative in some way be less "cheesy"?