Ranged Spell Question

[ZiggyQubert]

Hey, this came up the other day and I have been unable to find anything on it -

What exactly is a ranged spell, the Young Lacroix have the Talent Tiny - ranged Strikes and ranged Spells targeting thsi model recieve - to ther attack and casting flips.

Now my question is what exactly is a ranged spell, I know the gun icon makes a spell a ranged strike (thus covered by the ranged strikes wording) my asumption is that any spell that has a range (the Rg Stat) is concidered a ranged spell, and thus would be at a - when targeting them

[Mach_5]

I don't see any definition or reference to "ranged spells" anywhere. So I would assume it's talking about ranged attack spells (ie only spells with the icon). I think if they meant everything other than melee spells () they would have said so. Likewise if they meant all spells they'd have said so. So Tiny affects Ranged Strikes (weapon attacks with ) and ranged attack spells (any spell that's a ). IMO.

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

Also, if you think about the ability, "Tiny" is essentially an attack modifier similar to modifiers for cover etc. It's harder to hit the model because it's Tiny. Such modifiers apply to ranged strikes and also to any spell with the icon.

[ZiggyQubert]

I don't see any definition or reference to "ranged spells" anywhere. So I would assume it's talking about ranged attack spells (ie only spells with the icon). I think if they meant everything other than melee spells () they would have said so. Likewise if they meant all spells they'd have said so.

by the same argument if they had ment ranged attack spells then they would have said so, they diden't so its ambuigus

Also, if you think about the ability, "Tiny" is essentially an attack modifier similar to modifiers for cover etc. It's harder to hit the model because it's Tiny. Such modifiers apply to ranged strikes and also to any spell with the icon.

or "Tiny" is there because the model is so small it's hard to see and thus anything you target at a tiny model is harder to do (simply because sometimes you can't see see it).

False.

If it didn't include the words "and ranged Spells" then it would affect any spells, because no spell is a "Ranged Strike". Only weapon attacks (and bash) are ranged strikes.

Strike is not the same thing as Attack.

Except for the fact that the rules state -

"Modifiers that affect melee or ranged attacks affect these Spells as well." so yes tecnicly a spell with the icon is not a ranged strike, however anything that effects a ranged strike will effect a spell with the icon

[Q'iq'el]

Thats exactly my point the explisitly makes the spell a "ranged attack spell" and all I hear is people saying "No a renged spell is only a spell that has the icon" with no justification other than saying it makes the spell a "ranged attack spell" (as I've pointede out not the same thing as a ranged spell, because look its different wording).

I'm happy to abide by a martals ruling, but as far as I can tell from the manual there is no clear definiton of a "ranged spell" other than using the interpertation of a spell with a range (and yes I realize that this makes tiny more powerfull)

Just take a look at the number of experienced players telling you how to play it and perhaps just consider that you might have the rules wrong? You've even been given the page number.

A spell can be just a spell or an attack spell. That's the first very important distinction. It is important, because attack spells cannot target the caster himself. What consists an attack (any attack, not just a spell) is defined in the RM. Among the listed categories are spells with Rst: value and spells with icon.

So if a spell gets a icon, it becomes both ranged and attack. That's why it is qualified as a Ranged Attack Spell.

Then you have a spell like Lilith's Transposition, which has no icon, but has Rst: in it. That spell is an Attack Spell, but it isn't a Ranged attack spell.

Think of it like that - a spells which actually have to hit you (bolts of energy) will have the icon and behave like Ranged Strikes, more or less (for example you cannot cast them while in melee). Spells that do not have this icon happen by the caster using his/hers powers, without any need for precise aiming (you still need LoS for all the Spells unless stated otherwise). These can be cast when engaged in melee and bypass many other limits on regular ranged attacks, but if they have Rst: value, they are still attacks.

Then there are spells which have neither and these are non-attack non-ranged spells. Many heals are in this category - you can cast them on the caster as well as on other models in range.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[CRC]

Except for the fact that the rules state -

"Modifiers that affect melee or ranged attacks affect these Spells as well." so yes technically a spell with the icon is not a ranged strike, however anything that effects a ranged strike will effect a spell with the icon

If Tiny said "ranged attacks receive ...", you'd be right. But it doesn't.

It says ranged strikes. spells are not ranged strikes.

Tiny is not a modifier that affects melee or ranged attacks. For example, it doesn't affect abilities that cause wounds to other targets, but those are attacks (neither strikes nor spells).

Since it doesn't affect all attacks, your argument doesn't hold.

[ZiggyQubert]

Just take a look at the number of experienced players telling you how to play it and perhaps just consider that you might have the rules wrong? You've even been given the page number.

So I being an experienced player myself (and having provided page numbers for rules) should take another experienced players opinion even when I think they could be wrong?

A spell can be just a spell or an attack spell.

Aparently a spell can also be a "ranged spell" (in fact tiny references this type of spell)

That's the first very important distinction. It is important, because attack spells cannot target the caster himself. What consists an attack (any attack, not just a spell) is defined in the RM. Among the listed categories are spells with Rst: value and spells with icon.

So if a spell gets a icon, it becomes both ranged and attack. That's why it is qualified as a Ranged Attack Spell.

I agree it is both "ranged spell" and an "attack spell", attack spell, however that dosent prevent other spells from being ranged spells (in the smae manner that it dosent prevent other spells from being attack spells).

As a "ranged spell" is not defined anwyhere, the question is what is a ranged spell? the answer - "any spell with a range" is just as valad as any of the other answere.

Think f it this way, if someone asked you (without regard to this rule) what a ranged spell is, you could easily say "well a spell with a range is a ranged spell", makes perfect sence and is completly logical.

[Q'iq'el]

Every Ranged Spell is also an Attack Spell, because the icon which makes them Ranged also makes them Attack.

Not every Attack spell is a Ranged spell, because the spell doesn't need the gun icon to be an attack (there are other categories of attacks).

Every spell has a range, not every spell is ranged.

There are spells which are not attacks... but they can't be ranged, because the gun icon, denoting ranged spells, automatically makes them ranged attack spells.

These are the facts you have to work it.

I'm sorry for taking you for an inexperienced player, but an experienced player knows, in Malifaux the actual mechanics and the logic behind them were more important than hanging up on some weird syntax inconsistencies. If by some chance you've actually found a mistake in the wording which causes the issue to be blurry, you may rest assured the Wyrd will fix it so that the game plays as intended.. i.e. according to the above divisions.

[Mach_5]

Even melee spells have a range. This does not make them ranged spells. So I can't understand the argument that any spell with a range is a ranged spell.

[ZiggyQubert]

Every Ranged Spell is also an Attack Spell' date=' because the icon which makes them Ranged also makes them Attack.[/quote']

No not true, every spell with is a ranged spell and an attack spell (as spelled out in the rules)

[Mach_5]

You're welcome to play it as you and your opponents like. IMO, it applies to spells with the icon only, and that's how I'd play it if my model had Tiny. If I played you or someone who insisted on your interpretation then I'd be happy to flip for it without an official ruling. We agree that "Ranged Spell" is not defined so without an official ruling we must each decide for ourselves what we think it means, and if an agreement can't be made between you and your opponent than a random flip each time the situation comes up is only fair. More fun playing than arguing I'd say.

[ZiggyQubert]

You're welcome to play it as you and your opponents like. IMO, it applies to spells with the icon only, and that's how I'd play it if my model had Tiny. If I played you or someone who insisted on your interpretation then I'd be happy to flip for it without an official ruling. We agree that "Ranged Spell" is not defined so without an official ruling we must each decide for ourselves what we think it means, and if an agreement can't be made between you and your opponent than a random flip each time the situation comes up is only fair. More fun playing than arguing I'd say.

If we were playing yes we would figure something out, and I would happily play it either way, but in an attempt to figure out what

the rule actualy means (and for debate) its worth talking about it. And I'd agree that tiny should be re-written as either -

Tiny - Ranged Strikes and Spells with a Rg targeting this model recieve - to there attack and casting flips.

or

Tiny - Ranged Strikes and Ranged Attack Spells targeting this model recieve - to there attack and casting flips.

I think either would be more cleer

[Mach_5]

If we were playing yes we would figure something out, and I would happily play it either way, but in an attempt to figure out what

the rule actualy means (and for debate) its worth talking about it.

Well, after 4 pages of debate, we have the following people disagreeing with you:

dgraz

Shank Seamus

CRC

Kogan Style

Mister_Q

Cornelious1424

CrouchingMoose

Q'iq'el

Mach_5

and the following people who agree that it's unclear but don't seem to have decided what the answer is;

Vmag (uncertain)

DeusInnomen (uncertain)

and we have you still arguing it's any spell with a Range (which is any spell, since all spells have a range, even Melee, blast, pulse, and Caster).

So, short of a rules marshal stepping in, I'd say we've come to somewhat of a consensus.

And I'd agree that tiny should be re-written as either -

Tiny - Ranged Strikes and Spells with a Rg targeting this model recieve - to there attack and casting flips.

or

Tiny - Ranged Strikes and Ranged Attack Spells targeting this model recieve - to there attack and casting flips.

I think either would be more cleer

Yep, either would be 100% clear, though in the first example it could just as well say "Ranged Strikes and Spells targeting this model recieve..." since all spells have a range attribute.