Help a n00b play with Lilith.

[Commisar]

Hello good people.

Last week I played my first game of Malifaux, with my Lilith Crew. I come to you for help.

( I have played other war games for years and years, so not a total n00b in that sense)

I was playing against another inexperienced player, and we were sort of muddling through.

Some generic questions first:

The Encounter rules. We seemed to be skipping things, the book says you can skip them, but they take up a lot of pages.

I cant understand how someone would have enough terrain on hand to do step 3. Randomly determine location. We decided to use Standard Deployment, because it has the word standard in it. We could have randomly flipped for this.

Then for Determine strategies, we flipped on the "Core Encounter Chart" because it seemed more straightforward. Is this how people typically do it?

We didn't select any schemes, because the book says you don't need to and we wanted to keep it simple, but I get the impression schemes are rather important.

Then we skipped over many many location tables, because these seem irrelevant unless you have a very abundant selection of terrain? Or am I missing something?

Strategy wise I flipped Claim Jump and he Flipped Destroy the Evidence.

This meant all the objectives ended up in my half of the table, my claim jump on one side and his three Evidence markers on the other side.

My Crew:

I had Lilith

Malifaux Cherub

Nekima

2x Terror Tot

Full Cache.

Mainly, Rule of Cool, rather then what was most effective. I realise Nekima is probably overcosted.

I thought about bringing the third Terror Tot, but since I only had 2 Young Nephalim Minis in my case, I decided against it.

My Opponent was playing Kirai

He had:

Kirai

Lost love

2x Onryo

Datsu-Ba

and Seishin.

7 Cache

He seemed to have picked a really complicated crew, and didnt really have enough miniatures for all his summons. But I don't really know what his stuff was meant to do, so I'll carry on from my perspective.

First up, two things I know we did wrong. We played on a 4x4 table, not 3x3. And We didnt realize you could make two move actions a turn.

I flipped the first turn.

I had clustered most of my miniatures on the right, near my claim jump marker.

Right off bat, I realized I wasn't going to get any blood from my opponents spirits, so I activated Lilith, cast blood from stone to get 2 blood counters at the expense of half my soul stones. I preformed a walk, Cast "Illusory forest" then used Brood mother, on Nekima.

Question: I assume I cant use brood mother to activate a model that has already activated?

Nekima activated used Nephilim Heart to give the Tot's + 1 Masks to Casting, and moved a little wanting to keep the tots within 10 inches. She Skipped her last activation.

My Opponent was studying his cards, thought about summoning his thing were he lost half his life couldn't see how he was supposed to get that life back, and basically resolved to walk something forwards. and then complained because all his things "to do" needed him to be in combat, weras I had preparation type spells to do.

Long story short, I was able to easily grow both my Tots into young with the +4 and a Mask to casting from Nekima, and the two blood from Lilith. The young then moved forward towards my claim jump.

My Totem wambled off to defend the evidence.

Question: I could have acctivated my totem after Lilith due to Companion, but I wasent sure how that interacts with Brood Mother..?

All this time my opponent was slowly moving forwards while doing nothing much ???

Turn the Second.

I used blood from stone again to get another blood counter. and moved Lilith after the Young, Brood mother on Nekima again. She Recasts + Masks to casting and also uses blood offering to get a blood token, and moves after the young.

One young then uses Mature. I realize now all the blood token have to come from one model, so I was full of cheating. The Mature and young move up to the claim jump, Totem keeps wambleing to the other side.

My Opponent walks forward. (sure he should have been doing other things, but we were on a big table, and didnt know you could double walk remember so I had a lot of time to waste)

Next turn.

Having done all the growing and maturing I had the models for...

Question: Is it, in the opinion of the forum worthwhile buying a second mature Nephalim mini? Will it ever come up in normal play (IE when your opponent isn't just obligingly walking every turn and letting you do whatever) I don't really want to get a second one as there is only the one sculpt.

.. I decided to move Lilith towards the other flank.

I then transposed the totem and Nekima.

The opponent then had Nekima in his way rather then a Cherub. This was met with cries of "you can do what"?!

Q: I am assuming when I transpose two friendly models like this I don't actually have to resist with my models, because that makes sense.

Fighting then broke out. Nekima is quite good in combat, and that regeneration is handy.

My blow by blow of what happened once the combat started is a bit spotty, basically he piled his entire crew down to his objective Nekima held them off for a while, Lilith waded in, when she started to die, I transposed her (useing the totem which is now in the middle of the table) with the mature Nephalim. The Mature used wing Buffet, and basically I won when the game ended at the end of turn six.

(Nekima did eventually die, as did the Mature, but they stopped the opponent for long enough, that he only picked up one evidence. Lilith and a young were sitting unmolested next to my claim marker, well lilith was on half health until she was transposed away).

Triggers are hard to remember to use. I need to remember that nekima can add a random suit to get off a trigger every turn.

Obviously, my opponent needs even more help then I do, and I will be encouraging him to go and post on the Resser forum his master seems really oddly complex compared to mine, so I think I made the better choice.

As far as Expanding goes: I have picked up a Black Blood Shaman. Who seems quite cool. And I mean to pick up Lelu and Litlu soon, but my FLGS is having trouble getting any in stock.

Then thats about it... Until April, when I will pick up Tuco and Avatar Lilith, and probably a couple of Weildgiests to go with the Avatar. I don't know.

Thanks for reading anyway, and I appreciate any input.

[Q'iq'el]

First of all, I have to congratulate you on good taste in master selection.

Hello good people.

The Encounter rules. We seemed to be skipping things, the book says you can skip them, but they take up a lot of pages.

I cant understand how someone would have enough terrain on hand to do step 3. Randomly determine location. We decided to use Standard Deployment, because it has the word standard in it. We could have randomly flipped for this.

Then for Determine strategies, we flipped on the "Core Encounter Chart" because it seemed more straightforward. Is this how people typically do it?

We didn't select any schemes, because the book says you don't need to and we wanted to keep it simple, but I get the impression schemes are rather important.

Then we skipped over many many location tables, because these seem irrelevant unless you have a very abundant selection of terrain? Or am I missing something?

Strategy wise I flipped Claim Jump and he Flipped Destroy the Evidence.

This meant all the objectives ended up in my half of the table, my claim jump on one side and his three Evidence markers on the other side.

Generally speaking you are doing it right by not picking up all the rules for the Encounters at first. Encounter rules are as complex as the game itself and it is good to simplify it a bit while you learn the game.

However there are three things to keep in mind:

1. Game is balanced around objectives. If you don't use full Encounter rules and Strategies and Schemes fully, you won't have equal chances of winning it.

2. The terrain is very important and the game is terrain-heavy. You do need, as much as it may shock you, all the special terrain listed in the Rules Manual (you can save some time by using similarly sized objects for multiple special terrain pieces).

3. Regular terrain is just as important - if you don't have enough terrain some crews will have very clear advantage. Too much terrain, and the scales will shift the other way. If you have problem with amassing enough terrain for a good Malifaux table, buy at least two sets of Terraclips and play on that - with minor addition of trees, rocks and such the terrain will be just ok.

In the end, it would be best if you switched to full Encounter rules as soon as you feel safe with the game flow and basic rules.

I thought about bringing the third Terror Tot, but since I only had 2 Young Nephalim Minis in my case, I decided against it.

Tots are not just for Growing. They are very fast and easy to hide. If you play with enough terrain, you can move around the map with Tots without exposing them to enemy spells or fire. If you play full Strategies and Schemes, Tots are great for grabbing objectives.

Many players envy Lilith her 3SS significant Ht1 minis as in other factions small models at this price tend to be insignificant.

Here we come back to my initial comments - as soon as you learn the game, switch to full Encounter rules and use the time you have till that day to make all the terrain you need and buy more houses, forests, lakes and such, for fully populated tables.

To sum up - take as many Tots as you can. 3-4 is nice and there are builds, for some Strategies and Schemes, where taking 6 is not a bad idea at all. You'll Grow the ones you need to Grow and keep the rest for objectives and as spares.

Question: I assume I cant use brood mother to activate a model that has already activated?

You are right.

Question: I could have acctivated my totem after Lilith due to Companion, but I wasent sure how that interacts with Brood Mother..?

Companion rules are quite complex, but in this case it is simpler than in some other crews. You can Simultaneously activate these two models (Lilith & Totem) and then add a third one to the group with Brood Mother. You have full freedom as to the order of the activation between Lilith and her Totem, but the model Lilith adds with Brood Mother can be added only during her activation (as it is her action). I think you can go Lilith->Totem->Added Model, if you want.

Question: Is it, in the opinion of the forum worthwhile buying a second mature Nephalim mini? Will it ever come up in normal play (IE when your opponent isn't just obligingly walking every turn and letting you do whatever) I don't really want to get a second one as there is only the one sculpt.

I haven't bought a second one for a very long time. But I have 2 now. Everything depends on how you play the list and what you want to do with it. If you intend to keep bringing Nekima, then more Tots and second Mature may be in order. Some more Youngs may be fun too. If you go Tuco, Twins and Black Blood Shaman (and perhaps some other Neverborn models), with just 1~2 Tots, then you may never need more than one Mature.

Q: I am assuming when I transpose two friendly models like this I don't actually have to resist with my models, because that makes sense.

It is a bit more complicated. You do have to make all the duels and flip all the cards for all the models. The game simply requires you to keep spending the cards. But if a model resists a spell from another friendly model, it has an option to choose to tie the duel. A tie means the resist was lost and the spell goes through, so the final result is as you assume (if you cast Transpose on two friendly models it is guaranteed not to be resisted). You just have to spend the cards.

When trying to kill or damage own models with spell it is less friendly, because even if you decide to tie the duel, the tied result will seriously limit the damage you cause. Lilith crew usually don't do this with spells though as they kill models with melee (if you bring Desperate Mercenary to produce more Blood Counters for example). In melee you cannot even tie down the duel and you have to fight it to the end... but you can choose to cheat down with the model you want to get killed or damaged (and thus having bad cards in your Control Hand can be beneficial from time to time).

I hope I didn't miss any of your questions.

Lilith is a strong master. Easy to understand at first but really complex once you get good. Because people don't expect her to be tricky (thinking she's a beatstick), you can play their ignorance to your advantage and beat them with moves and ideas they don't expect melee crews to have (Imagine giving :masks to Tot's Ca, using it to sprint 20~30" next to your opponent, then transpositioning the Tot with Lelu, causing huge damage with Lelu and before the opponent has any chance to strike back, you use Simultaneously Activated (through Bond) Lilitu to Lure Lelu back (again guaranteed to succeed as Lelu can choose to tie the resist and since it's a Lure, there won't be Disengaging Strike from the opponent).

Having said that Kirai is one of the most tricky and advanced masters in the game. She is, in contrast, very hard to learn, but considered extremely powerful once the player learns the ropes.

Even though Kirai's minions are Undead, the Spirit rule prevents them from leaving counters, so I think you cannot get Blood Counters from them (I'm not 100% sure as these counters are created by Neverborn own ability after killing undead, so it can be argued that Spirit rule paired with Undead rule does not affect Blood Counter creation). In case Spirits stop Blood Counter creation, you will have to seriously consider bringing Desperate Mercenaries, Nekima or Shaman (both can create counters) and some healing for these two (Lilitu).

Edited February 18, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Finnegan]

Hi there, Commisar,

Welcome to our ranks

First of all, thanks for putting all your questions so clearly and in one post. It makes it very much easier and more enjoyable to answer than when people just ask questions right off the bast (as I myself am wont to do )

I'll try gogin through your post in order.

First of all, Encounter rules. I myself am of the same opinion as you, i.e. unless you have a lot of varied terrain available it's better to skip them. I didn't actually know the reason why that section existed until I discoverd Ratty's Malifaux page, where you can find the various locations and the special terrain you can find in them.

For your first game, going for Standard deployment is fine.

Strategy-wise, once again, you've got the right idea. Flipping for it on the Encounter Chart allows an element of randomness to the game which affects your crew decision - for example you wouldn't take a slow crew for Destroy the Evidence.

Schemes: for your first game, you're fine playing without them - it's better to focus on familiarising yourself with the rules. I do recommend you pick them up form now on though, as they add another layer of complexity to the game: yyou get to decide your schemes once you know your and your opponent's crews and strategy, so you can pick schemes that help you or that hinder your opponent.

Your crew selection lacks a bit to be desired, but then again it was your first game. I myself prefer the Primordial Magic to the Malifaux Cherub because of the Arcane Reserve, but opinions differ. Nekima works better with more tots, say 3 or 4, so I wouldn't field her at a game of less than 35 Soulstones. For a 25 SS game, with Claim Jump, I probably would have taken a Mature Nephilim from the get-go and added another Terror Tot for the same price. Although you only have 2 Young Neph, it's a viable strategy to keep a tot until the end of the game - they are fast little buggers and can get where you want them in one turn very easily.

Now comes the game itself, and your questions.

Blood from Stone, in my opinion, is much more situational than the way you used it. Yes, you would have found it difficult to get blood counters unless you killed Kirai herself when she wasn't a spirit, but since it's a zero cost action you can do it on any turn, just like you can grow your tots on any turn. My biggest problem with blood from stone is that it costs you a lot of SS, which your opponent knows you won't have anymore. In addition, it is nearly always better to use the totem to cast illusionary forest in order to leave lilith with more options.

To answer your questions, no you can't use brood mother to re-activate a model. Companion can be used in conjunction with Brood Mother. The important distinciton is that companion means both models activate simultaneously, meaning you could companion the cherub, start by activating the cherub, then activate lilith, then brood mother nekima. Or, if you wish to activate the cherub after lilith, you would first companion him, activate lilith, brood mother nekima (which now takes precedent), activate nekima, then activate the cherub.

I've never played Kirai myself and I've only played against her once, so I won't try to give advice on how to use her - I'd certainly be wrong XD

Turn 2: As you pointed out yourself, both blood counters used for maturing have to be from the same model, which is why I would have taken the mature from the start in this case. Is it worth it buying a second mature? That's debatable. The group I play with is fine with model proxying and I have a Teddy with the same base size, so any time I would need a second mature I could just throw in Teddy instead. If your friends don't like you proxying, I think it's better to keep with your one Mature until you get to higher soulstones games. I find that the blood shaman, while a good model, does not make it that much easier to get blood counters, so at low soulstones you'll very rarely get to field two Matures.

Regarding the resist, you do have to flip for resist even if they are your own models, BUT you can decide to ignore their results and say that the results are a draw. This is important when, for example, you're meleeing your own models: you'll probably end up with a double negative flip for damage.

Finally, with regard to Lelu and Lilitu, I know how you feel. I've ordered them in early December and Lilitu still hasn't arrived :'( They are very good, and consequently very popular models, which may explain why it's so hard to get a hold of them.

Do keep in touch with the forums, there's always new ideas coming

Edit: Curse you for nabbing my answer, Q'iq'el!

Edited February 18, 2012 by Finnegan

[Commisar]

Thanks for the Excellent replies guys.

Regards Terrain: We were playing on a heavily sculpted trench system board, because that's what was available. Not the most Malifaux thing ever, but we did have plenty to hide behind. I do like the look of the terraclips stuff. Seems also hard to find in the UK. You would also be limited to playing in a city. I am waiting to see what the 4th Terraclips set turns out to be, hopeing its something foresty. I like the idea of an "edge of city" kind of board that would represent a neverborn raid Even so. As far as I can see you STILL wouldent want to flip to see were you played because you still wouldn't own every kind of environment.

Definately going to start useing schemes. And the expanded encounter chart I guess. Whats this about Story Encounters? Worth includeing? I see I need to download them.

Crew selection, I realise Nekima is more a 35ss kind of model. But, shes a lovely miniture and painted, so I wanted to see what she was like. Completely understand now the utility of haveing a un grown tot to grab things. Reluctant get more tots/young/Mature as that would mean doubling up on sculpts, which seems a shame in such a low model count game. (I'm one of those gamers that lets pretty miniatures overrule tactics from time to time) Gonna stick with 3,2,1 for now and see if I start to really hurt for lack of models.

Again, thanks for the realy thurough replys.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Commisar

[Q'iq'el]

I know what you mean by the edge of the city. This is what I want to play myself. I'm just not sure how well will the square-ish paper forest look. I think I'll simply try mashing up regular terrain with Terraclips at some point.

There's no need to go full-faction with Malifaux from the start. Play with the models you have, add one or two every couple of months and once you get proficient enough to choose your crew really well, you'll probably get all the remaining models you need in one go. Buying in advance may leave you with models you put a lot of effort to prepare and almost never use.

Doubling on sculpts is inevitable, to a degree. Wyrd is releasing alternative models for some of the sculpts now, so there's always a chance new Tots, Youngs and Matures will appear at some points. You can always reposition the Tots to look a bit different too (probably the easiest of the Nephilim). My second Mature is standing a bit differently and has wings bend to somewhat different shape, so they are clearly distinguishable, but still look a bit too similar for my taste.

Story Encounters are purely for fun. I'm not sure how well are they balanced, but they make for a great themed game on Halloween and such.

[Ozz]

A simple one for you to do (if not taking Nekima) is to Just use her as a second Mature if you get to grow a second

And for your friend this is a link to the Kirai Wiki which has some tactics for her and how she plays for him to have a look through.

http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/Kirai

As has been said, she is one of the more complex masters, so he is likely to lose a bit until he learns her tricks, but afterwards, things shall get much more interesting:)