Bad Ju Ju's Eternal

[Glint-Eye]

A question about Bad Ju Ju and his ability to heal came up in my group the other day (interestingly, my opponent was arguing in my favor).

I had used Bad Ju Ju’s Eternal to bring him back from the dead and I reduced his wound stat by half (down to 6). When next turn came around I was moving Bad Ju Ju and my opponent asked why I didn’t regenerate 2 of his wounds, I told him that the wound stat was reduced in half, but then he pointed out something peculiar about the wording for damage on page 44.

“When a model suffers Wd, reduce its remaining Wd stat by one point for each Wd suffered.”

This is worded similarly to Bad Ju Ju’s ability, to quote part of eternal:

“…reduce this model’s Wd stat by half…”

I believe the original intent was that he came back with increasingly less wounds that he could regenerate up to (12, 6, 3, 2, 1…), but is this even correct? Can Bad Ju Ju actually regenerate up to his original 12 wounds? Likewise, does Eternal reduce the wounds lower than 6 on subsequent respawns? It’s worded similar to things like Indiscriminant void, and it fit any of the cumulative requirements listed on page 20 in the rules manual (something my opponent also advocated).

In any event, I played with the way most everyone else plays it (reducing the wounds cumulatively and not regenerating them), but it got me to question if I was playing it wrong. I tried looking this up elsewhere, but with little luck. Is it just bad wording and the intent was been the way it Ju Ju has always been played, or is there something more here?

[Q'iq'el]

I think if it was permanent reduction of Wd stat by half, it would say so. I can't think of any example of permanent reduction in Wd, but there are abilities that reduce Wp permanently and they are pretty explicit about that (stating the reduction is for "the remainder of the Encounter").

In other words, since Bad Juju's rule doesn't say his (hers?) wounds are to be reduced by half for the remainder of the Encounter, I think he (she?) can regenerate them.

[Kadeton]

It looks to me as though there's a potential difference between "the model's Wd stat" and "the model's remaining Wd stat", i.e. every model has two stats that track maximum Wd and current Wd. By that wording, I can see Juju's maximum Wd being reduced, which seems like the intention to me.

[Q'iq'el]

That is, IMHO, wrong way to answer the question Kadeton.

The actual question is "what effect is being placed on Bad Juju and for how long?"

The effect is Wd reduction. The duration is immediate. The effect is not specified to last for the remainder of the Encounter.

The nuances in the wording have proven in the past, again and again, not to point at intention at all. But the analysis of actual effect being applied is, IMHO, pretty accurate way to tell what the intention is.

Therefore you cannot say the intention is to reduce Max. Wd. Intention is simply to reduce # of Wd he comes back with.

This is, after all, an effect-centric game, isn't it?

[Kadeton]

The nuances in the wording have proven in the past' date=' again and again, not to point at intention at all. But the analysis of actual effect being applied is, IMHO, pretty accurate way to tell what the intention is.[/quote']

In all the rulings I've seen, the exact opposite has been true: people attempt to apply effects according to an analysis of the specific wording of the rules, then a Rules Marshal corrects them with a ruling that goes along with the intention but not necessarily the precise wording of the rule.

If we assume that the intention of the rule is to allow Juju to heal back up to 12 Wd every time he comes back, then being reduced to 6 Wd and regenerating is the way it should be played. If we assume that Juju is intended to become weaker with every reincarnation, then reducing his maximum Wd to 6, 3, 2, 1, etc is the way it should be played. An analysis of the exact wording of the rules will never give us an accurate indication of how it was intended.

Additionally: if we take the rules for reducing Wd exactly as written in the Rules Manual, Juju's Wd stat is reduced by the damage he has taken until his Wd stat is 0, at which point he is killed and removed from play. When he is placed again with Eternal, his Wd stat should still be 0, since the ability does not mention that he is healed during the process. Half of 0 is still 0, so he is returned to play with 0 Wd. Clearly this is not what was intended, and is silly... but it's (IMO) an accurate analysis of what should happen according to the exact wording of the rules. Just pointing out that rules as written are never as useful as rules as intended.

[Q'iq'el]

There's little chance Bad Juju would fully heal thanks to his Regeneration. If it died only once, before turn 3, only then would it even stand a chance of recuperating full Wd by the end of the game.

I think this too is important factor when deciding which interpretation seems more balanced.

Either way, in case of Drain Soul and other similar abilities (Collodi's Filled with Stones, for example) the rule is very explicit that the reduction in the affected stats lasts till the end of the Encounter. Bad Juju's Eternal does not define the applied effect in these terms.

[Kadeton]

Personally, I think the reduction in Wd does not need a specified end, because it doesn't make sense except as a permanent effect. The number of Wd on Juju's card is changed to half of what it was previously, permanently. He hasn't lost half his wounds - instead, he's on full wounds, but his full number is half of what it used to be.

If you're saying that Eternal doesn't specify an end (and therefore, RAW, ends in the Resolve Effects stage) what would be the effect of it ending?

[Q'iq'el]

You are mixing the immediate and ongoing effects right now. To end in the Closin Phase it would have to be an ongoing effect, that also can be dispelled or removed in other ways.

This is a regular immediate effect that reduces the wounds to the given number. For the reduction to affect maximum Wd available till the end of the Encounter, it would have to explicitely say so, IMHO.

[Kadeton]

Ah, I see what you're saying. That's a fair enough interpretation, although it seems unnecessarily ambiguously worded in that case. They could have just said "This model suffers 6 Wd."

The fact that it instead says "Each time this ability is used, reduce this model's Wd stat by half" that makes me think it's supposed to be a permanent, cumulative reduction of the base stat, not current wounds.

At this point, we've both stated our cases, and I think we can both see how the other arrived at their interpretation - and I think both interpretations are logical and valid, and there's nothing in the rules to determine which is correct. We will just have to hope for a Rules Marshal to weigh in so that we can find out!

[Ozz]

Im just going to add my part to show what i think and why, not to state anyone posting before me is right or wrong but:

The wording on the card says reduce the wound stat by half. To me this means the total number gets reduced by half.

The wording on taking Wounds (Wd) posted above says you reduce the remaining Wd by 1. This to me gives both sentences completely different meanings.

One reduces what you have left, one reduces the total that you start with.

However, from what i read above i can not see anything to make it state that it is cumulative, ie nothing to state that each time he dies, he does not lose the effect of the previous eternal? (that's the right one isnt it?) So maybe he just comes back each time on 6 Wd.

But my thoughts up until now has always been it halves each time down to 1 and can not regen back up past the starting amount he arrived on.

[Sliver Chocobo]

The wording on the card says reduce the wound stat by half. To me this means the total number gets reduced by half.

That's what i think as well

[Lucidicide]

Also, doesn't aZoraida reduce Wd stats permanently? So there is something else that works like this.

[Q'iq'el]

aZoraida's abilities specify the reduction lasts to the end of the encounter.

I'm not sure how significant the wording is. I agree it seems to mean each time Bad Juju returns it Wd is halved (12->6->3 etc.)... but I'm not convinced it cannot regenerate the wounds back.

I think wording "Wd stat" indicates what you have to halve -> after all when Bad Juju dies it's Wd are likely to be at 0, so what would you halve, if it wasn't specified you should start with the initial Wd stat, as printed on the card?

[Capt.Caveman]

Any additional word on this? Interesting post and some good things were brought up. Maybe many people consider this model not worth the cost because they've been playing it all wrong up until.......

[Lucidicide]

Word on what, specifically?

[Capt.Caveman]

Well you mentioned that avatar reduces the wd's permanently, but didnt give us the wording for it. Just curious