wicked doll Malice vs Pandoras Expose Fears.

[Pox]

so wicked dolls can sacrifice themself to give a target model within 3" 2 wds and slow.

now since the wicked doll sacrifices themself first, do they need to make the WP vs WP check with pandora since they are dead? or does expose fears still stop the wicked dolls malice ability - thus sacrificing a model for potentially nothing?

though of course wicked intentions is a mighty nice ability against pandora anyway due to her low defence.

[Cunning]

If you fail expose fears then you cannot target and the action fails. Which would mean the Wicked Doll takes a wd but doesn't sacrifce itself.

[Q'iq'el]

Neither, I think.

Sacrifice of the doll, just like the damage it causes, are effects of the Malice action.

If one of the effects is impossible to execute, all the other effects fail as well. So if they fail the Wp vs. Wp check & they don't cause the damage to Pandora, you don't sacrifice them either.

[Pox]

Neither, I think.

Sacrifice of the doll, just like the damage it causes, are effects of the Malice action.

If one of the effects is impossible to execute, all the other effects fail as well. So if they fail the Wp vs. Wp check & they don't cause the damage to Pandora, you don't sacrifice them either.

see that is what I initially though, but then the wording is quite important on this one.

Malice: Sacrifice this model. Target model within 3" of this model suffers 2 wd and receives slow.

the sacrifice is made before targetting a model, which would imply the model is dead before a target is picked therefore making wp - wp duels impossible. If it was worded as:

Malice: Target model within 3" of this model suffers 2wd and receives slow then immediately sacrifice this model.

I would agree 100% that both the action fails and the model is not sacrificed. But the way it is worded it certainly indicates that the model is sacrificed THEN a target is picked - all separated out by the punctuation and stuff.

[Calmdown]

see that is what I initially though, but then the wording is quite important on this one.

Malice: Sacrifice this model. Target model within 3" of this model suffers 2 wd and receives slow.

the sacrifice is made before targetting a model, which would imply the model is dead before a target is picked therefore making wp - wp duels impossible. If it was worded as:

Malice: Target model within 3" of this model suffers 2wd and receives slow then immediately sacrifice this model.

I would agree 100% that both the action fails and the model is not sacrificed. But the way it is worded it certainly indicates that the model is sacrificed THEN a target is picked - all separated out by the punctuation and stuff.

After reading the card, I agree with you. You sacrifice before targeting. In standard rules parlance, even if the targeting fails, the model has already been sacrificed. Unless there is some weird "backwards fizzling" in Malifaux (which is completely possible). Although from the precedent of I believe all other abilities that do similar things it was probably intended that the sac only happens if you target, if I had to rule this I'd say that the doll still dies.

[Q'iq'el]

The order of sentences determines the order of execution, yes, but that doesn't mean the basic rule of one effect failing causes entire talent/spell to fail is changed. You can check the rulings for other such abilities on the forum and you'll see they are worded the same and you don't sacrifice the models, if they fail to apply other effects.

Same for sacrificing counters as the cost or spells, for example - you are always told to discard or sacrifice a counter first which is both the first effect and the condition for the spell to go off. But if you fail with the following effects, you don't have to pay up with the counters. Same principle.

[Pox]

yeah from the wording the doll dies, but then also since it is dead before a target is declared their is no "model" to target her or perform a wp wp duel with Pandy thus the action should not be able to fail due to exposed fears.

[Calmdown]

yeah from the wording the doll dies, but then also since it is dead before a target is declared their is no "model" to target her or perform a wp wp duel with Pandy thus the action should not be able to fail due to exposed fears.

Actually that's specifically not the way Malifaux works. Effects that were initiated still take place regardless of whether a model is still there or not. It's been ruled multiple times for things like Blinding Flash, All Done, and more.

It's a horrible mire of rules that could be easily clarified with better (and not even very complicated) wording.

Such is Malifaux

[Q'iq'el]

OK, let me explain it the other way around.

You have the order of the action entirely wrong. "target model" is not a verb, but a noun.

This is an action. Everything after the name of the talent/spell is its effect, not the rule for execution. Rules are in the manual.

1. Target the target model.

2. Execute the action and check if it suceeds (in this case it is only matter of spending AP and checking if the target is legal)

3. Execute the effects.

Effects are:

a) Sacrifice the Doll

Apply 2 wounds to the "Target model", which you have selected in point 1.

You perform Wp->Wp test before you sacrifice the doll. If you fail it, you can't even take the action.

[Pox]

I see - thanks ye lot that DOES make perfect sense, and fits with the general feel of malifaux, but by gads the wording could have been a little nicer on my poor brain.

well at least that is one mystery (to me) cleared up.