Whirling Death on the Dreamer

[Cunning]

In a simlar vein to some of the other threads posted recently.

If the Dreamer and various nightmares (doesn't matter how many) are within 2" of Lilith and she uses whirling death, can this hit the Dreamer?

I've used this twice in the past and we've decided that it can. But whereas with automatic fire I can see the logic behind it, I'm not sure in this instance.

Cheers.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Only if she kills the other nightmares first

[ProdigalPunk]

Only if she kills the other nightmares first

See I disagree with this (I may well end up wrong for it), my Lilith makes an attack on every model within range, so the Dreamer would have no other valid targets to pawn the hit off to in my opinion.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

You are incorrect PP.

Shadowy Form does NOT redirect attacks targeting the Dreamer.

If there is a Nightmare model within 3" of the Dreamer, he cannot be targeted. Period. End of Line.

In the case of Whirling Death, you'd better make sure to kill off all the other Nightmares (that are legal targets) within 3" of the Dreamer with the attacks or you can't even swing on him.

Edited September 7, 2011 by WEiRD sKeTCH

[ProdigalPunk]

Can you link the errata on that for me, because both my book and card say: ""This model can not be targeted by an enemy Action while it is within 3" of a friendly Nightmare that could have been targeted by the Action."

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Can you link the errata on that for me, because both my book and card say: ""This model can not be targeted by an enemy Action while it is within 3" of a friendly Nightmare that could have been targeted by the Action."

Look at my signature.

And secondly, it doesn't state that it redirects. It just states that if he's within 3" of a Nightmare that could have been the target instead, then he can't be targeted.

Edited September 7, 2011 by WEiRD sKeTCH

[Cunning]

But with whirling death what can be targeted instead of the dreamer? All the other nightmares are already targeted and you can't target them twice.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

There is no "instead".

Each Strike has to be targeted to a model. You perform them in an order of your choosing. If the Dreamer is the last one standing, swing away.

[Cunning]

Your previous post said instead.

[Dolomyte]

So if he takes the whirling death action, and kills the other nightmares first (activating player chooses the order), he can then attack the dreamer?

Edit, if he does not kill the other nightmares, could the attack generated by whirling death against the dreamer be taken against one of the other nightmares, even causing them to face a second attack, because of shadowy forms ruling.

or is that attack lost?

Edited September 7, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Sliver Chocobo]

Your previous post said instead.

That was out of context

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

So if he takes the whirling death action, and kills the other nightmares first (activating player chooses the order), he can then attack the dreamer?

If there are no other legal Nightmare targets then yes. As I stated previously...

[ProdigalPunk]

Well I was using redirected loosely I suppose. And for the record my description of what happens is far more accurate then your description. You said "If there is a Nightmare model within 3" of the Dreamer, he cannot be targeted. Period. End of Line." This is not the case at all. Even in your errata-ed version you can still make an attack on the Dreamer if the Nighmares are not within reach of the melee attack but still within 3" of the Dreamer. The problem with Wyrd is they tend to use words nonchalantly without realizing the full power that words have. Period means end of story no exceptions.

Am I incorrect that he can still be targeted if the other models are out of melee range, because if I am not the next time I play with the Dreamer and some tries to attack him while my daydream is hiding behind a well I will inform them they are out of luck and cite this:

You are incorrect PP.

Shadowy Form does NOT redirect attacks targeting the Dreamer.

If there is a Nightmare model within 3" of the Dreamer, he cannot be targeted. Period. End of Line.

In the case of Whirling Death, you'd better make sure to kill off all the other Nightmares (that are legal targets) within 3" of the Dreamer with the attacks or you can't even swing on him.

[Cunning]

That was out of context

Actually no it wasn't

It just states that if he's within 3" of a Nightmare that could have been the target instead

Was what Sketch said. No other nightmare can be the target instead as they are already targetted.

The wording on the card is a little ambiguous though (I've actually only just now read it properly)

I can see how it can be interpreted either way.

[Dolomyte]

If there are no other legal Nightmare targets then yes. As I stated previously...

I edited my post, could you answer what happens to that extra attack?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Well I was using redirected loosely I suppose. And for the record my description of what happens is far more accurate then your description. You said "If there is a Nightmare model within 3" of the Dreamer, he cannot be targeted. Period. End of Line." This is not the case at all. Even in your errata-ed version you can still make an attack on the Dreamer if the Nighmares are not within reach of the melee attack but still within 3" of the Dreamer. The problem with Wyrd is they tend to use words nonchalantly without realizing the full power that words have. Period means end of story no exceptions.

Am I incorrect that he can still be targeted if the other models are out of melee range, because if I am not the next time I play with the Dreamer and some tries to attack him while my daydream is hiding behind a well I will inform them they are out of luck and cite this:

You are incorrect PP.

I repeat. Look at my signature.

If that nightmare not a Legal Target for the attack the you may attack the Dreamer. If it is not a Legal Target, then you may not attack the Dreamer. Is that clear enough for you?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I edited my post, could you answer what happens to that extra attack?

What extra attack?

[Sliver Chocobo]

If you can not target the dreamer you can not make the attack against the dreamer

[Cunning]

Cheers for the answer anyway Sketch.

At least it wasn't wholy in favour of the dreamer.

Sorry if the thread has ended you causing you hassle

[Dolomyte]

I repeat. Look at my signature.

If that nightmare not a Legal Target for the attack the you may attack the Dreamer. If it is not a Legal Target, then you may not attack the Dreamer. Is that clear enough for you?

Its not clear due to the nature of whirlwind attack.

In my mind whirlwind attack grants an attack against every enemy model within 2 inches of lilith. Your saying that each of those attacks is an individual attack. If the dreamer was the last thing you chose to attack, but there is still a nightmare alive, what happens to that attack.

You claim it follows the rules of shadowy form and cannot attack the dreamer, but the other nightmares were already attacked, so they are not valid targets, the dreamer is the only valid target of the attack. I would say it hits the dreamer. your saying the attack is wasted.

Wait one minute - TYPING EXAMPLE

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Its not clear due to the nature of whirlwind attack.

In my mind whirlwind attack grants an attack against every enemy model within 2 inches of lilith. Your saying that each of those attacks is an individual attack. If the dreamer was the last thing you chose to attack, but there is still a nightmare alive, what happens to that attack.

Each Strike must be performed separately.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Its not clear due to the nature of whirlwind attack.

In my mind whirlwind attack grants an attack against every enemy model within 2 inches of lilith. Your saying that each of those attacks is an individual attack. If the dreamer was the last thing you chose to attack, but there is still a nightmare alive, what happens to that attack.

You claim it follows the rules of shadowy form and cannot attack the dreamer, but the other nightmares were already attacked, so they are not valid targets, the dreamer is the only valid target of the attack. I would say it hits the dreamer. your saying the attack is wasted.

Wait one minute - TYPING EXAMPLE

if you can not target the dreamer, you can not attack the dreamer, the attack against the dream just fails

[Dolomyte]

Dreamer (1 inch) Stitched (1 Inch) Alp (1 Inch)

Lilith

Lilith uses her 2 ap for whirling death.

(2) Whirling Death : Discard a Control Card. This model immediately makes a greatsword Strike against EVERY model within 2''

(in this example, the dreamer, the stitched, and the alp)

The lilith player attacks and kills the alp

the lilith player attacks and does not kill the stitched

the lilith player ????? with the dreamer.

Shadowy form, from your signature " "Enemy models cannot target the Dreamer with Actions if there is a friendly Nightmare within 3” of the Dreamer that could be a legal target of the Action."

The alp and the stitched could not be a legal target of the whirling death attack. So therefor why cant she hit the dreamer?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Dreamer (1 inch) Stitched (1 Inch) Alp (1 Inch)

Lilith

Lilith uses her 2 ap for whirling death.

(2) Whirling Death : Discard a Control Card. This model immediately makes a greatsword Strike against EVERY model within 2''

(in this example, the dreamer, the stitched, and the alp)

The lilith player attacks and kills the alp

the lilith player attacks and does not kill the stitched

the lilith player ????? with the dreamer.

Shadowy form, from your signature " "Enemy models cannot target the Dreamer with Actions if there is a friendly Nightmare within 3” of the Dreamer that could be a legal target of the Action."

The alp and the stitched could not be a legal target of the whirling death attack. So therefor why cant she hit the dreamer?

They are Legal Targets (within Lilith's melee range and within 3" of the Dreamer) but were already targeted and attacked by Whirling Death. The Dreamer cannot be targeted by the Strike.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Is the stitched within three of the dreamer, if he is then Lilith can not target The dreamer

[Dolomyte]

Each Strike must be performed separately.

They are seperate strikes, but its the same action. I feel like I'm playing the mr. smigs role in this thread.

If its three seperate attacks, why not just give her flurry.