Triggers and Timing

[LoboStele]

I know this kind of stuff has come up before, but would just like some clarification, as it happened in a recent game, and we disagreed on the resolution.

Desolation Engine does enough Wds to kill Coppelius. His ability says that the model which kills him takes 4 Wds. But the Deso's ability allows him to heal based on how many Wds he inflicted. At the time, the Deso engine started with full HP, so the question was, which took effect first, Coppelius' 4 Wds, or the healing of Wds thanks to the Deso's trigger?

My understanding, based on what Keltheos and others posted a while back about trigger timing, is that the death of a model interrupted the rest of the sequence, and so things like Coppelius' special ability, or Shatter, or stuff like that, would take effect before triggers that say "after damaging defender". Unfortunately, this isn't really clear in the Rules Manual at all.

[CubertFarnsworth]

Well here in this case you are using Desolate Warping for the Engine correct? Well that is a trigger. Coppelius is an ability.

Pg 28 of the steps of the Rulebook for an Opposed rule state on Step 4: that triggers are chosen, and based on the Des. Engines triggers, they happen immediately, then on step 6 of the Opposed Duel: Results are applied, and the result is killing Coppelius who then preforms his ability. Dishing out 4 Wds.

My two cents.....

Edited August 29, 2011 by CubertFarnsworth
clarification

[poulpox]

I think Cubert is right:

. the trigger is called

. the DS inflicts Dg -> Wd to Coppelius

. Wd are applied to Coppe

. Wd are healed on DS (but since it has full HP nothing happens)

. Effect on losing Wd are applied to Coppe -> he dies

. Wds are caused on DS

I think Coppe's ability doesn't interrupt before then because it applies after being killed, which happens after dishing out Wds, but I could be wrong

[Calmdown]

You are right that death 'interrupts' the flow of events, as far the rules are written, since if it didnt all sorts of funny situations would arise. No Nicodem-related pun intended.

The guys above are correct that the trigger takes place before the wounds are applied, but wrong about its timing; the trigger is declared first, before damage is dealt, but in this case since the trigger specifically states its own timing.

So the question is, because it states 'after' damaging defender, where does the heal event sit?

Desolation Engine hits

Deso declares trigger

Coppellius is hit and reduced to 0 Wds

Deso heals 4 Wds here?

<begin death>

Coppellius is killed

Coppelllius is removed from play

Deso takes 4 Wds

<end death>

Deso heals 4 Wds here?

I believe that since Malifaux has no concept of a 'stack' of effects, there's no problem with two things happening simultaneously; Coppellius takes damage and is killed, whilst the Deso is also healed, and then Coppellius' damage is applied when he is removed from play.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Calmdown

[LoboStele]

Desolation Engine hits

Deso declares trigger

Coppellius is hit and reduced to 0 Wds

Deso heals 4 Wds here?

<begin death>

Coppellius is killed

Coppelllius is removed from play

Deso takes 4 Wds

<end death>

Deso heals 4 Wds here?

Yeah, this is the issue we were trying to sort through, and why I went ahead and posted the question. As I mentioned previously, I remembered seeing a thread where it was ruled that things like the Coryphee's 4" push trigger, or the Ronin's Next Target trigger, did not take effect until after abilities like Shatter were resolved. So that's why I was thinking that the Deso Engine would heal after Coppelius' ability made him take the 4 Wds. But as I said, the rulebook isn't 100% clear on it, so just thought I'd toss it out for discussion.

[pgbsamurai]

"If an effect causes another effect to activate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused." P. 6 RM.

So I would say it goes as follows:

1. DE hits

2. Trigger Activates

3. Damage dealt, killing Coppellius activating his ability and pausing action.

4. Coppellius deals damage.

5. Action resumes and trigger heals DE (assuming DE didn't die from Coppellius doesn't kill him).

Consuming Touch specifically says, "After damaging defending model" which would indicate that any effects caused by damage or death of the defending model would pause the trigger and resolve before the trigger resolved.