Harmless & disengaging

[Ferb]

Hi,

This came up in tonight's game. Does a model with Harmless have to receive a disengaging strike when leaving melee range or can they just walk away.

We played it that they did and the model making the disengaging strike had to pass the WP test first before making the strike. Just wanted to check if we did it correctly.

Thanks,

Ferb

[Ratty]

Yeah you can attempt to strike them but you would have to make the harmless check.

[Ferb]

Wow super fast reply!

Thanks Ratty

[marshimartian]

Hi,

This came up in tonight's game. Does a model with Harmless have to receive a disengaging strike when leaving melee range or can they just walk away.

We played it that they did and the model making the disengaging strike had to pass the WP test first before making the strike. Just wanted to check if we did it correctly.

Thanks,

Ferb

Disengaging strikes are technically optional. Just in case you missed that, I know you recently started playing (or started posting at least)

[Ferb]

Thanks for the tip, hadn't spotted that they were optional.

[TroyPerez]

Another question to add to this that I was wondering about. Does a Harmless model lose harmless if it performs a disengaging strike? The rulebook is very unclear if a disengaging strike is an action, it feels like it should be but doesn't really say it.

[egoon]

No, a disengaging strike is not an action, so I would assume that it does not end harmless

[rgarbonzo]

Agree with egoon, it's more like a disengaging hug if the model is harmless

[rgarbonzo]

Raading through the strike rules it says that a disengaging Strike is a Strike. Since Harmless ends when taking any Action or than Walk or Pass and a Strike is a Combat Action then I would have to say yes that little kid with the knife is no longer Harmless after he tries to menace you with it to keep you from getting away.

So in short yes Harmless ends after making a disengaging Strike.

[The Godlyness]

i point you to the faq

Is a Strike generated as part of a Trigger, Charge, or other effect an Action?

Only the (1) Strike Action is a Strike Action. Other Actions which include a Strike are not "Strike Actions"

[Fubar]

i point you to the faq

Is a Strike generated as part of a Trigger, Charge, or other effect an Action?

Only the (1) Strike Action is a Strike Action. Other Actions which include a Strike are not "Strike Actions"

May no be a strike action, but its not a walk or pass action either.

[Voras]

Mind the second sentence of the FAQ: 'Other Actions wich include a Strike are not "Strike Actions".'

This just points out, that they are still Actions, just not "Strike Actions".

[Thaarup]

An action is something you pay actionpoints to use...disengaging strike is not an action.

[The Godlyness]

May not be a strike action, but its not a walk or pass action either.

True. it's not an Action. therefore it does not meet the criteria to end harmless.

I will then point you to page 48 of the small rule book and tell you that only when referring to the defender is the word Action even mentioned.

Edited May 1, 2013 by The Godlyness
made the little a a Big A for action.

[rgarbonzo]

Pg 33 rules manual says that you have to spend AP for an Action... didn't look thoroughly.

Well at least we can know that Disengaging Strikes cannot end Harmless, I thought so at the beginning but after looking at the Strike deal got a bit sideways. Thanks people!

Edited May 1, 2013 by rgarbonzo

[PungaHead]

Listen to Fubar. An action, free or otherwise, still breaks harmless. You have performed something other than Walk, Pass or Defend/Resist, therefore you have broken harmless.

[Thaarup]

Listen to Fubar. An action, free or otherwise, still breaks harmless. You have performed something other than Walk, Pass or Defend/Resist, therefore you have broken harmless.

Rulebook 1.5, page 32 defines an Action as:

• Action names appear in Bold, preceded in parentheses by the number of AP the model must spend to take the Action. If the model does not have the required number of AP available, it cannot take the Action...
  
• 
  

A disengaging strike is not an Action.

[The Godlyness]

Listen to Fubar. An action, free or otherwise, still breaks harmless. You have performed something other than Walk, Pass or Defend/Resist, therefore you have broken harmless.

If my model is harmless lets say Yin the Pennagalon and i walk it up to you and get engaged with your model. now its your turn. you activate fail terrifying and have to run away. i want to stop you so i make a disengaging strike Has My model Yin the pennagalon used any actions this turn except walk? if the answer is no (which it is) then my model is still harmless. now i hit you and make you stop running even do Dg due to being Wicked your models activation now ends. has Yin the pennagalon used any action points to do an action besides walk this turn? No so She/it is still harmless.

if your argument is but She/it made a Strike i point you to the above FAQ.

Now lets say i machine puppet a Trap to bash something, it is harmless, it is making a strike but it is not using an action to do so. so it will remain harmless.

Now if i obey a model it says it does a (1) or charge that would make the harmless model lose harmless since it used an action other than walk or pass.

do you see the differences in this?

[PungaHead]

Okay, since we are quoting the 1.5 core book.

"Disengaging

...that model may interrupt the enemy's move and attempt to block it by making one melee Strike, called disengaging strike..." (Malifaux core rulebook 1.5 p. 44)

Therefore, a Disengaging strike is a free action, and counts as a strike in every aspect of the rules, except for damaging and triggers.

Conclusion: Disengaging strikes break harmless.

Clear enough for you?

[Thaarup]

It is still not an Action.

Read the rulebook how a Action is defined..there is to my knowledge no reference to "free action", so I cant really see why you would think it is an Action?

A lot of effects have Action like effects in it, but they are still not an Action unless you use Action point or it is a (0)Action or otherwise described as an Action. It is the otherway around. Actions creates effects.

For example using a defence trigger that gives you a strike like effect like Reposte is not an Action either.

The rulebook is pretty clear about it. Unless there are an (X) in front, it is not an Action.

EDIT: You can think of Actions as a special way to create effects (move, push, strike and so on...), but that does not mean that effects are Actions.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Thaarup

[The Godlyness]

i point you to the faq

Is a Strike generated as part of a Trigger, Charge, or other effect an Action?

Only the (1) Strike Action is a Strike Action. Other Actions which include a Strike are not "Strike Actions"

Here is something new i am quoting myself.

Do you understand? Does this make it clear for you?

A Disengaging Strike is at no time is a Strike Action

Stipulation of losing Harmless is Taking an Action other than walk or pass. Key word you seem you be Deliberately misconstruing is Action.

If the Rules manual and the FAQ are not good enough for you to go by to play the game then feel free to house rule it with your friends and play it how ever you wish to. but if you wish to play the game correctly then follow the rules.

[egoon]

Some of you seem to be reading the Harmless ability as "harmless ends when the model does anything that is not a Walk of Pass Action." This is not correct, it says "Harmless ends when this model performs an Action other than Walk or Pass." Which means that as long as the model does not perform actions, harmless does not end.

Hence only actions taken by the model will end Harmless.

And it's been well established here that disengaging strikes are not actions.

So disengaging strikes do not end Harmless.