any ideas for the dreamer

[ShootMePerdita]

wondered if anyone has tried any certain combinations with the dreamer yet, i know it comes with 2 stitched togethers and coppelius. wondered if anyone has tried lelu and lilitu out with the dreamer instead of stitched together and coppelius or maybe couple of teddys and baby kade. didnt know which rout to take. or maybe the stitched togethers and coppelius with something else is way to go just wanted some ideas before i drop some cash

[karn987]

wondered if anyone has tried any certain combinations with the dreamer yet, i know it comes with 2 stitched togethers and coppelius. wondered if anyone has tried lelu and lilitu out with the dreamer instead of stitched together and coppelius or maybe couple of teddys and baby kade. didnt know which rout to take. or maybe the stitched togethers and coppelius with something else is way to go just wanted some ideas before i drop some cash

Well the first thing Ill say is, I have my Tactica which you can request (PM me with your email) and that has a lot of information in it including all the crew layouts for Nightmare focused lists.

Lelu and Lilitu work really well with the Dreamer. The Dreamers unbury effects helps undo the Lelu's biggest weakness, his speed. Lilitu doesn't get a ton out of it, but you can always put her off to the side and lure people around etc. If nothing else, she is some more damage and can be a big help in moving irritating models out of the way. But their uses and strategies go really really deep, you'll discover the best things by putting them on the table and just rolling with it. =)

Teddy is FANTASTIC with the Dreamer, though I would not recommend taking Kade with the Dreamer because he can't be buried. Teddy's biggest weakness is his speed and lack of melee expert, this counters it. You just drop the Teddy off in melee range and nom faces. But Kade, doesn't give the Dreamer anything he can't get better from a Nightmare.

Alps are amazing, they are a huge pain in the ass and if 2+ are dropped in range of a model (or models *wink wink*) they will cause huge issues. If nothing else they will eat up cards as people try to pass the duels as failing them can cause a lot of damage and havoc.

Stitched Together is fantastic becuase it causes some hefty damage via his Gamble Your Life and as of right now, you can make it unkillable. When Does Not Die is triggered, let it activate and then bury it with the Dreamer. Buried models are not in play and not effected by phases in turns so it never dies. Then bring it out next turn and just bury it again at the end!

Coppelius is really really good. He hits pretty hard and has a trigger that just does flat moderate damage bypassing damage flips. This can be extremely useful for finishing off models/hurting those pesky Hard to Wound Models. He also has some nasty moral type effects and can spawn Alps!

So there is a lot to be had here, for my part Ill let my Tactica do most of the speaking.

[HarkonneN]

Hi!

I'll have a match this weekend in our local club. It's gonna be just a 25 SS srap, but it's important to me, cause I only have a training game behind me, and my enemy is gonna be one of the most experienced players of the club (he's using Seamus), and I don't really know how much SS is necessary for the dreamer.

Is he need all 8 SS allowed in scraps, or fewer is enough?

My list contains 3 alps, coppelius, and 2 daydreams, it's 22 SS. I have at least 5 nightmares + 3 remaining SS, but I think it's gonna be a better idea to sacrifice the 3 SS from the cache to put a 4th alp in the list.

What do you think?

And to say something about the combos, my favourite is that: you move your daydreams in the frontline while the dreamer is in play, and if an enemy kills one of them, put LCB at the place of the daydream(cause he's a nightmare too), and after that, LCB immediately activates (as stated in the ability: One Master). I can use this in my first match, and It was a very nasty surprise to my enemy.

I think the doppelganger is a nice non-nightmare model for the dreamer. As I read, all nightmares have at least one ability/spell/weapon/etc. that's worth to mimic. (My favourite is coppelius's dying dream ability, and LCB's Ten-inch claw)

Edited November 11, 2010 by HarkonneN

[Koali]

I do not think he needs all the 8 SS...

Especially if you have the Daydreams and you need not to summon some...

[karn987]

Hmm Seamus can be a bit tough because of the damage he can output.

I would actually suggest moving to Teddy instead of Coppelius because Teddy is tougher, more damaging, and Coppelius can't make use of his terrifying vs undead. But honestly either choice could work because if Coppelius can score some early kills, he can hopefully start pumping out Alps and reinforce your forces.

I would not suggest taking 8ss, its over-kill with the Dreamer generally. Another Alp could be very useful as that would give you two teams of 2 you can lay out (you want at least two near each other to impose the negative flip on the duel to resist their slow). So I say go with the 4th Alp.

The big issue I could see with lots of Alps though is, Samari Punk Zombies. They will AE them down rather easily. So if he likes to use a bunch of them, be careful how you use your Alps. Let something big and burly like LCB take them down or a range attack like the Dreamers or his daydreams.

Another thought is Stitched Togethers. Convert your 3 alps and 1ss into 2 Stitched Togethers and you have a high damage potential pair of units that are relatively safe from most of the death he will visit upon you because of Does Not Die. Plus the Creeping Fog can help protect your from Lure if you have to be in the open at any time and Gamble for Your Life can deal out a lot of damage. Gamble lets you card cycle and really, they are just all around good.

Do you know what your Seamus guy usually brings? I can give you more advice if you know what your most likely going up against =D

Do you have my Dreamer tactica? That will give you a huge number of tips I compiled from my own experience and what others have posted on him. If not, pm me your email and Ill make sure to send it to your asap so you have a chance to read it.

[anathema]

Although I only have one game with the Dreamer, I have a few more with Seamus. In this match up Alps may not be your best bet.

Unless you drop them off late (in which case they may not have a good unactivated target), the Seamus player has 2 options:

1. The easiest thing to do is to Lure his threatened model from the Alps AoE before it activates. 2 Lures gets him well away.

2. Lure the alps away and apart, to be picked off individually. Each belle can cast 2 Lures per activation at them to pull them out of effective range at a starting duel advantage of +4.

While you do mess with the other player's activation order and have him spend Belles on pulling Alps out of the way, he can remove all 3 with 2 Belles. Its then well worth him taking 2 wounds to smack individual Alps in the face and kill them.

Even worse, he can potentially pull them all into Zombie Punk range and Slice and Dice to kill them all if he has a high mask.

To avoid this, you could drop off a Stitched Together and "pop smoke", but the other guy can go before that.

Also, Lure can be used to pull models from Flurry range for models like Teddy, so be aware of that if you try and set it up.

Also be aware of him Luring your Daydreams to be shot or battered as it has an 18" range.

On a positive note, its well worth trying to trigger Flay with LCB. His crew will be Hard to Wound 1 or 2 and rely on making you flip at -1 or worse for min. damage. If this is a minimum of 4, he's in trouble.

As Karn says (and his tactica is well worth reading), Stitched Together are great too. They can do a min. damage of 3 and Seamus' minions are WP5 vs. their 6. Against Undead, you want stuff with high minimum damage to mitigate all that Hard to Wound.

On a final note, how's this for a very situational but weaselly tactic? Seamus activates, casts Face of Death, then Undead psychosis and walks within 4" of the Alps. They then have to test on Terrifying 14. If you've dropped off Coppelius within 4", they die if they fall back due to Night Stalker.

Edited November 11, 2010 by anathema

[Dumb Luck]

I'm tempted for 35ss games just to take three Teddies and to air drop them into the other gangs.

How many soulstones does the gang need normally?

[Koali]

That depends on your local group... here in bonn we play 25-30 SS normaly...

[nix]

On a final note, how's this for a very situational but weaselly tactic? Seamus activates, casts Face of Death, then Undead psychosis and walks within 4" of the Alps. They then have to test on Terrifying 14. If you've dropped off Coppelius within 4", they die if they fall back due to Night Stalker.

Not exactly, as nightmares are not living models. No terrifying test for the Alps. Also, considering Seamus is fast, being this close to alps is not necessarily healthy for him.

[anathema]

Nightmares are still subject to Morale Duels, there's nothing in their rules or the Morale rules that says otherwise.

[Csonti]

Nightmares are still subject to Morale Duels, there's nothing in their rules or the Morale rules that says otherwise.

Moral Duels from spells or effects yes, Terrifying Tests no.

Replace the first line in Terrifying with: “Enemy living models without the Terrifying -> # ability conduct a Morale Duel using their Wp…”

[anathema]

Damn that errata! :

[quotemyname]

Just to note a few things that I've seen successful:

Daydreams. No less than two, and maybe even three.

Playing the Dreamer I'd like to see at least one elite model picked by him. My choice would be either Coppelius or Teddy at this point. This depends on who you're fighting. Copp has more morale duels/ hatred for living models. But if you're fighting, say, Rezzers, Teddy might be a better choice.

From there, you probably have a few different paths you can take.

I would either go with an Alp Squad, or a Mixed Force.

Alp Squad: probably runs best with Copp rather than teddy, as he can summon more. Start with at least 3-4 Alps. Drop them all close, but not adjacent to one target. Preferably surrounding it. I won't tell you how to run Alps. It should be a no-brainer. Just let their primary target expire. When you do summon more, try and spread outward, like ripples in a pond as your Alps replicate. If your next available target is too far away, don't bother walking them, just bury them all and unbury them on something else, wash rinse repeat.

Mixed Force: You don't really need two stiched together, though I do REALLY like them. Two works, but I feel like the points could be better spent elsewhere (though they are really hard to get rid of). You're other choices would be Insidious Madness, or Lelu/Liltu (correct me if I'm wrong, but you might be able to bury them before they take damage from not having a twin around). I see this working better than the Alp Squad for certain objectives.

It really depends on who you are up against, and what your strategies are.

Hope this helps.

[HarkonneN]

Thanks for the responses.

Kharn: I had your tactica document, but I can't find a clue how much usable SS the dreamer needs.

My enemy mentioned once he gonna bring belles with him, and now I see your point, the stitched togethers can resist to lure more effectively, but I want to test the alp swarm badly.

So I don't know what to bring as basic troop (if I can't decide it before Sunday I'll bring stitched togethers), but I can't choose Teddy for the elite model, cause I don't have him, or any model that looks nearly like him, I think I stay with Coppelius(he can't scare them, but he can pull out undead eyes too, and reinforce my alps).

[karn987]

Thanks for the responses.

Kharn: I had your tactica document, but I can't find a clue how much usable SS the dreamer needs.

My enemy mentioned once he gonna bring belles with him, and now I see your point, the stitched togethers can resist to lure more effectively, but I want to test the alp swarm badly.

So I don't know what to bring as basic troop (if I can't decide it before Sunday I'll bring stitched togethers), but I can't choose Teddy for the elite model, cause I don't have him, or any model that looks nearly like him, I think I stay with Coppelius(he can't scare them, but he can pull out undead eyes too, and reinforce my alps).

Huh Ill have to cover that then. Well Ill make that tweak for sure =)

Go with whatever you will find the most amusing man. Whatever you want, give it a shot and damn the consequences ;D

[Natty]

Kharn: I had your tactica document, but I can't find a clue how much usable SS the dreamer needs.

Like any of the glass cannon masters, The Dreamer would need max soulstones. Masters like the Viktorias and Lord Chompy bits can usually use a single soulstone to kill an opposing minion, but they are so breakable they also need those soulstones for defense.

If you take less than 7 or 8 soulstones with a glass cannon, then you aren't playing that master correctly.

Keep in mind though, you will probably be getting 5 soulstones from hiring 5 nightmares, so you only need to set aside 2 or 3 for Sgt Chomps. His ability doesn't let you go over the max of 8.

[karn987]

Like any of the glass cannon masters, The Dreamer would need max soulstones. Masters like the Viktorias and Lord Chompy bits can usually use a single soulstone to kill an opposing minion, but they are so breakable they also need those soulstones for defense.

If you take less than 7 or 8 soulstones with a glass cannon, then you aren't playing that master correctly.

Keep in mind though, you will probably be getting 5 soulstones from hiring 5 nightmares, so you only need to set aside 2 or 3 for Sgt Chomps. His ability doesn't let you go over the max of 8.

Err I think your wrong on this Natty. Dreamer does very well with 4 -5 because if you do things right he doesn't need them. I would honestly not bother to leave any SS around and just let him have his 5 because you just won't need them. Every game I have played with 8ss, win or lose with the Dreamer I have always ended with 3 -4ss remaining.

Yes he is a glass cannon, but unlike the rest he is a glass cannon that should never be hit. If you do things right, you limit retaliation against him to next to nothing. You rarely need the SS on attacks besides a few (hence why 5 is nice) specific strikes mainly against masters.

But that's my 2 cents, I think your strangling your crew a bit by cutting out 3ss for Dreamer that could have been another Alp. But to each their own. But he definitely does not need 8ss, not at all. Your style will dictate how many you want to have.

[quotemyname]

If you take less than 7 or 8 soulstones with a glass cannon, then you aren't playing that master correctly.

I always want to cringe when I hear judgments like this one. Natty, what you're saying has value. SS certainly help Glass Cannons survive. However, you need to respect that there is so much variation in this game that there really is no true way to play a master "correctly". Some strategies are better than others, of course, but there is nothing you can do that is truly completely wrong.

So I don't know what to bring as basic troop (if I can't decide it before Sunday I'll bring stitched togethers), but I can't choose Teddy for the elite model, cause I don't have him, or any model that looks nearly like him, I think I stay with Coppelius(he can't scare them, but he can pull out undead eyes too, and reinforce my alps).

One thing I try to think about when I run models is maximizing my effective abilities. You seem to be picking up on this quite well. What I mean is the part where you mention Copp not being able to terrify undead.

That said, for a battle like that one, if I could afford the extra SS, I would be tempted to run two Stitched in place of Copp entirely. Fill the rest of your crew with Alps and Daydreams and things that don't rely so heavily on Morale duels. All of these model's default abilities should work quite well on Undead (save for the Stitched trigger, but that's just icing on the cake with those guys anyway). While Copp is very good for his ability to summon more alps, an Alp squad should be able to take care of that on their own.

Hope your game went well, sorry this response is so late in coming.

---

Zombie Hookers with The Dreamer o_0

I .... I think I need to go use the bathroom, excuse me.

[Natty]

I always want to cringe when I hear judgments like this one. Natty, what you're saying has value. SS certainly help Glass Cannons survive. However, you need to respect that there is so much variation in this game that there really is no true way to play a master "correctly". Some strategies are better than others, of course, but there is nothing you can do that is truly completely wrong.

There are plenty of instances where a master can be played incorrectly or his crew can be purchased incorrectly. Sure, there is a lot of variability in the game, and the Dreamer has tons of choices of what to do with his crew but I stand by my position that the glass cannon masters need max soulstones. A single soulstone on one of the glass cannons is a huge benefit.

A stoulstone on Chompy turns that low ram into a high ram for some damage and a free attack. A soulstone on Lady Justice turns that hit against her into a riposte on the opponent. A soulstone on the Vik turns that miss into a hit that kills the opponent and draws you a free card. The list goes on and on.

Now, with support masters, sure, you don't really need max soulstones because it isn't as important that they soulstone all the time. The glass cannons should be burning through soulstones like candy.

That's not to say that the support masters shouldn't start with max soulstones. Honestly, I think that having max soulstones is just better with most of the masters out there. (A few like Somer Teeth or Zoraida don't really use soulstones all that often). For the glass cannons, though, it is a 100% must have. There is really no way I can see not taking max soulstones with Chompy. Ever.

[karn987]

There are plenty of instances where a master can be played incorrectly or his crew can be purchased incorrectly. Sure, there is a lot of variability in the game, and the Dreamer has tons of choices of what to do with his crew but I stand by my position that the glass cannon masters need max soulstones. A single soulstone on one of the glass cannons is a huge benefit.

A stoulstone on Chompy turns that low ram into a high ram for some damage and a free attack. A soulstone on Lady Justice turns that hit against her into a riposte on the opponent. A soulstone on the Vik turns that miss into a hit that kills the opponent and draws you a free card. The list goes on and on.

Now, with support masters, sure, you don't really need max soulstones because it isn't as important that they soulstone all the time. The glass cannons should be burning through soulstones like candy.

That's not to say that the support masters shouldn't start with max soulstones. Honestly, I think that having max soulstones is just better with most of the masters out there. (A few like Somer Teeth or Zoraida don't really use soulstones all that often). For the glass cannons, though, it is a 100% must have. There is really no way I can see not taking max soulstones with Chompy. Ever.

Well I dont have much to say that I didnt already say. I don't think this is the case at all and I almost never run max SS on any master and do 100% fine without them. I think your honestly wrong about it and I hope new players don't get glued into the idea that you need max SS to win because you flat out don't.

If you bring max SS and play a good game, your probably going to end with left over SS. This is especially true for the Dreamer. 8ss is the wrong number with him I think. 5ss is the best option in my opinion and experience.

But in the end, Natty this is how you feel about it. Your entitled to it and so is everyone else entitled to their opinions on the matter. Just please don't declare it is the best besides being in your opinion. I would really hate to see new players get confused by this and think its the only way that works.

But besides all this and back to the the main topic....

How did your game go Harkonnen?

Edited November 15, 2010 by karn987