Haemlin Crew

[Raintar]

I haven't seen it mentioned but has anyone used Canine Remains with him? My friend recently started using 10 of them in a 30SS game and started cleaning house using them. They're fast, reduce your Df and Wp, are hard to wound and make lots of Rats when they die. Thoughts?

[karn987]

When you first mentioned it a while back, I took a look into it. I'm not terribly impressed with it. It's a whole lotta cheesy for sure. But for the sake of completion, we did a few test games with it at 35ss.

It was a tough fight, but it wasn't that bad. They die really fast to any kind of AE and most crews can easily stock one. As long as you can pick out the Rat Catchers and Hamelin, you can wipe it really fast. Played against it with Lilith, Dreamer, and Leveticus and won all 3, but Lilith was very close and Dreamer had some trouble because he kept base blocking nicely.

But it has the same weakness as all of his spam rats lists, kill the key models and it falls appart like a house of cards. The Rat Catchers were simple to kill, Levy can blast one apart in 2 spells and with Ryle backing him up, it was like Star Ship Troopers with rats. SPA's and the Desolation Engine mopped up the rats rather easily with overlaping aura's. Sadly Hamelin made my Engine Insig, so levy had to do a little leg work to catch and finish Hamelin off.

Lilith was an exercise in frustration. But finally managed to get it together and Lure/Transposition the Rat Catchers away from their swarm and finish them off. Then Lilith and Lelu dropped Hamelin like he was a sack of rocks, the twins + Lilith alpha strike tore him apart. But it was a hard hard fight, most everything I had was barely alive by the end.

The Dreamer had some issues because he lacks any decent active crowd control using just Nightmares (meaning ones you trigger and not passive things like alps), so it was a lot of jockeying for position vs the swarm. Finally managed to get LCB within 3" of Hamelin and got a solid few flips to finish him. Alps were worth their weight in gold, clearing up the swarms after the Rat Catchers got pulled away by Lilitu and fed to Coppelius.

It was certainly a tough list to beat, but the masters and crews I tried at least, did it effectively enough. But then again, Neverborn are known for their tricks and Levy has so many options at his disposal he can always get the right tool for the job (Ryle Ryle Ryle =D).

But I will say this again, that is just a no fun cheesy list to play and play against. Blah.

Edited October 25, 2010 by karn987

[Raintar]

Is it cheesy? Yes I'd agree with you 100%. But I think you are missing some of the tactics that make it OP. I normally play 30 SS and my list is Primorial Magic, 8SS, 10 Canine Remains, no need for Rat Catchers.

Having alot of units benefits you in many different ways, firstly Haemlin makes them significant which is pretty ridiculous considering you have 10 scoring models. Secondly, the dogs can create a wall to your opponents getting to the Stolen which makes Haemlin nearly invincible. Thirdly, every Canine Remains that dies you will get a Rat. Useful obviously for many different reasons.

Ok, so those were pretty obvious, but now putting it into play using master Haemlin. You have a master that can pull out 9 damage with little effort using Fate is meaningless with one attack. Obediance is also one of the strongest spells in the game considering you can do it three times in one turn permitting you have Rats to Sacrifice (ruins Desolation engines that you said earlier taking them out of range AND charging with a powerful melee attacker). Also Inevitable Fate is fantastic against any high ss cost unit Ryle is a perfect target then all you have to do is get into melee and he's going to have alot of trouble hitting you in combat.

Haemlin should be running 8SS to ensure him not dying and to ensure you get your spells off. Obediance and Inevitable Truth properly used is DEVASTATING. He also can hit for 9 by himself don't hesitate to charge in and then second attack with fate is meaningless. I hope this gives a little more insight where I'm coming from.

[tenabrae]

What do you do against blasts ? Admittedly Hammy has a bunch of wounds but the same Guild tactic that kills levi will kill him, austringer (or as the stolen is probably closer just sonnia blast across it) the stolen and blast the crap outta hammy.

[Raintar]

Nothing, your dogs don't matter that much they turn into rats if they die anyway. Haemlin will generally be the one doing all the damage, the dogs and rats just help out a little. The rats will keep respawning so it doesn't really matter.

[tenabrae]

Not once hamelin's dead they don't, and if you're soulstoning away all the initial blast damage they'll just hit you directly once you're out.

[Raintar]

They won't kill Haemlin though, that's the point of having 8SS and a wall of dogs. The two work off each other.

[tenabrae]

You have a lot of models around Hamelin who can't spend soulstones and have middling defense.

Blasts kill stuff.

You either die to blasts (they obviously whack the stolen first so you can't come back) OR you spend your soulstones to resist damage and thus end up with no defense.

[hippieshopper]

I am inclined to agree with tenabrae.

Sonnia doesn't much care for dogs, and the ability to place those blasts an inch or two apart is brutal.

[karn987]

Yup. Blasts and Aura based damage rip this list apart. You only have 8ss and that will run out very quickly if your opponent is packing powerful blast. Raspy will take you down by turn 3 if you just sit in your swarm. The dogs are not tall enough to block LOS to you, so just shoot over them and down you go. It's actually a pretty terrible list the more I think about it, Neverborn just lack ranged attacks as a general rule so I had to get creative. But it's really easy to counter. Perdita and her family would drop you in a turn with their alpha strike, Levy would make you not exist any more with his spells. The list goes on, any strong ranged could take Hamelin out rather easily as nothing is protecting him from their attacks.

Sure Hamelin can hurt a single target pretty badly. But he is no Leveticus in that respect. Plus there is only one of him, your crew can easily over-come him.

Edited October 26, 2010 by karn987

[Raintar]

Anything involving shooting or shooting blasts will get shut down by even a single dog in melee. And I have ALOT of them, I'm going to tie up your shooty units, so you can't blast or pick off the stolen as soon as they are in range to shoot. There aren't a ton of melee blasts but most that do can pretty easily get one-shotted by Haemlin.

[karn987]

Anything involving shooting or shooting blasts will get shut down by even a single dog in melee. And I have ALOT of them, I'm going to tie up your shooty units, so you can't blast or pick off the stolen as soon as they are in range to shoot. There aren't a ton of melee blasts but most that do can pretty easily get one-shotted by Haemlin.

Raintar, if I'm your opponent I'm going to stay out of melee till Im ready to move into my range of you and take the shots. Your not going to reach me unless you send dogs out ahead of your much slower Master and if thats the case, they are very very easy prey. So honestly I don't see how this is supposed to work.

Especially against guys like Nino and the Sniper Merc (forget his name) and the Freikorps Trapper. They are all very long range and hit rather hard. They can easily stay out of melee and just pick you off little by little.

Also any AE push effect is going to cause you a work of trouble, a Mature Nephilim in the right place using Wing Buffet or Earthquake at the right time will split your swarm up and leave your open for again, an easy kill. Yes you have 8ss, but your easy to hit and if I'm packing a Red Joker and something like Teddy or LCB, your dead in one shot.

Your master is easy to kill your opponent can focus on him, it's always been this way. SS only help so much and can not fend of an entire crew for very long. This list is abusive in the rat Cycling and some more basic melee lists (like Lady J and some Res lists) will have trouble with it. But it's really not that impressive at all for all the reasons that have been listed previously.

I guess I don't see what you see in it. How is this list incredibly powerful? Hamelin is your only real power and he can't fight a whole crew by himself.

[tenabrae]

I'm assuming in your list that Hammy is staying within 6" of the dogs, otherwise they aren't coming back so sending them out to block up casters/rangers is anathema to your concept.

If you're clumping rats, once they kill all your dogs and rattify them, you have maybe 2 or 3 activations per turn, rats are slow.

Rats have poor willpower, you have few cards, terrifying hurts (and won't give you new rats).

Even a Lillith crew can use mature neph's wing buffet or earthquake to clear.

Heck with a decent hand in a pinch anything with knock aside could clear a few rats/potentiall bounce to Hammy.

There are a number of ways models have to clear stuff out of melee, they don't get used a whole lot in my experience but they exist and it's lists like this they're there for.

Now add Nix and slap him in their faces so your rats are no longer suck and you're talkin'

I really don't see it as superior to a rat-ctacher rat swarm/kill/repeat list (though of course you can turn the rats into rat catchers eventually later in the game after your dogs rattify)

Edited October 26, 2010 by tenabrae

[Zaqir]

The trick to lists that have the ability to take out Hammelin and ignore his other models (which is quite possible in a list that mostly include things that wont block LOS to him) is to use his ability to force you to target him but only have he makes you insignificant and then you have to target him but can't do anything) It wont be super easy but if you can pull it off as a primary goal the rat swarm just becomes a secondary method to achieve your goals at that point.

[tenabrae]

The trick to lists that have the ability to take out Hammelin and ignore his other models (which is quite possible in a list that mostly include things that wont block LOS to him) is to use his ability to force you to target him but only have he makes you insignificant and then you have to target him but can't do anything) It wont be super easy but if you can pull it off as a primary goal the rat swarm just becomes a secondary method to achieve your goals at that point.

Hamelin can only do that to one model at a time, and it's fairly resistable through soulstoning and/or discards (and if everything else in the Hamelin crew sucks I can't think of a good reason you wouldn't try to resist it every time).

It also ties Hamelin to a section of the table (must be within 12" of the model) which means his rat swarm is also tied to that portion of the table (within 6" of Hammy) if they're going to live.

It also doesn't prevent them using auras, pulses, terrifying or other abilities... It only prevents targetted abilities/attacks.

[Zaqir]

True but if you can make key pieces insignificant, even if you don't use the spell to force them at you they can kill your other stuff just to end up having more rats on the table and you are relatively safe.

IE you can force them to target you to avoid them targeting your stuff. or you can make them insignificant and not bother or worry about them on your main guy and just let them waste time on rats and crap.

[karn987]

True but if you can make key pieces insignificant, even if you don't use the spell to force them at you they can kill your other stuff just to end up having more rats on the table and you are relatively safe.

IE you can force them to target you to avoid them targeting your stuff. or you can make them insignificant and not bother or worry about them on your main guy and just let them waste time on rats and crap.

But all this is assuming to get to actually make them Insign etc. Many things out-range him and honestly, all you have to do is move in and take a shot at him. Or fast models can just swoop in and nail him. It's not that hard to nail him before he can nail you.

Again, its all you eggs in one basket that is standing in the middle of a field with a giant sign pointing to his face saying "Kill me please!". He's to slow to get the jump on anything, so he will mostly have to react and once he is forced into reacting to his opponent, it's basically over for him.

Most lists don't rely on a single model to do all their damage for them, even at 25ss. Most have a few that can do the job and Hamelin will have a very small chance to stop all of them. More then likely he will get at least one of them, but the rest will get him. The dogs won't do much and honestly it's probably worth killing them quickly and turning them into rats. Once they are all rats, you have zero activation control as you will get to activate Hamelin, the Stolen, and all the rats. So your opponent can easily wait you out and hit you once Hamelin has gone.

[tenabrae]

Indeed, using the rat-catchers to have multiple 'rat zones' is the best way I've found to run him rat-style, by the time you activate a swarm, kill em, activate the new swarm, that's 3 activations... You can easily have 2 lots of that plus hammy/stolen/nix/wench which is a whole lotta activatin'