Hi and a Pandora Question

[Guest]

Hello everyone. I am justgetting started in this game and had a question. When I was looking at it one boxed set really caught my eye, Pandora and her woes.

That whole concept is very intriguing for me. But after reading these forums it would seem that she would be a very bad choice to start with. Why is this? It seems very straight forward. Why does she need such a large amount of SS in reserve?

I was thinking of getting the strarter box, a Teddy or a Doppleganger. I was going to drop a Sorrow and add one of the two biggies. That would leave me 1 SS in reserve. I did not think that would be that bad, but reading some of these posts would indicate that would not work. What are your thoughts?

If I dont start with Pandora, my next choice would be Lillith or Seamus. How much easier would these two be to start with?

Lots of questions but I have not been this excited about a game in a Loooooong time. Thanks in advance.

[Ropetus]

Why she isn't recommended for the first games is that she is just so different. Her strategies can be straightforward but she plays on an entirely different mechanic (Wp Duels for everything) than everyone else and is also very fragile if she ever gets hit. She is also very different to play against as she turns Wp into the most important statistic for everyone. Played well she is very devastating but one mistake could cost you the game. Durable Masters like Lilith or Seamus are much more forgiving for beginner mistakes.

Masters have a Cache stat that tells how many free Soulstones they get each game for free. Pandora has a high Cache of 5 so actually leaving her with just 1 Soulstone is fine as it adds up to 6, just 2 below maximum. Pandora needs a lot of Stones since she can't afford to get hit too much (Stones allow her to avoid attacks for much longer) and her Ca 6 (which she mainly uses for offense) is only average.

I'm not saying Pandora is not a good first crew, just that you should play maybe one demo game with a different Master to get a hang of the basics of the game (movement and fighting). Then it is easier to start playing a Crew requiring more advanced tactics.

Lilith is a speed + melee Master. Her only way to kill stuff is getting into melee and almost all her abilities focus on either being better at melee or making herself or her crew faster. She can also assist her Nephilim to grow bigger and can protect them with a movable forest. She should be a great second Master along Pandora since both are Neverborn and their crews can be mixed.

Seamus is not that fond of melee (while he can still compete there) and likes shooting people with his crazy powerful gun. He excels at being hard to take out and has a lot of Wp effects that frighten his enemies. His crew has a lot of board control (the zombie hookers luring enemies towards them) and can take a lot of punishment. They're not that hard hitting though.

Anyway, if you like Pandora, that's what you should get.

-Ropetus

[shekbo]

Honestly, if you like Pandora, go for it. Just read her carefully and read around the forums for advice on how to play with her. she's got a lot of funny stuff that goes along with her, but basically it all whittles down to this: you want your opponents to lose ANYTHING that involves the "wp" stat. (willpower). If you do that, Pandora will destroy them.

I'd advise teddy if you're gonna drop a woe. Because you will not find a more fun figure to play with. There's nothing more amusing than watching your opponent sweat while you decide whether to use "claws" or "teeth".

Also did I mention he's a giant evil teddy bear?

If you go with that as your starting crew, you've pretty much got the most straightforward pandora set possible, because doppelganger makes things waaaay more complicated.

But basically, I'd say go for it, just keep in mind that you'll spend a lot of time comparing Pandora's stat card with the rule book and seeing how things are supposed to work out.

[Melnibonean]

Hello and welcome...

I agree with both the above: If you really want to go with Pandora then go for it but as Poretus said she is a bit difficult for beginers to get a handle on.

Then again, if you don't mind losing a few whilst you're learning the ropes Pandora can be rewarding. Once you get the hang of her style you'll find that some folks will quail at the thought of facing her - And really, you'll get the idea after a handful of games - Just don't feel disheartened if you lose the first few.

P.S. It's also fun pushing little Baby Kade around the table and seeing the fear in your apponents eyes. :tongue2:

P.P.S. You can't afford to drop a Sorrow to take a Doppleganger. You'll need all the sorrows you can get.

[Teal]

Dropping Candy from the box set and taking Teddy could help make the crew a bit easier to play for your first few games, as Teddy's tactics are a bit simpler than Candy's are, and he works so well with Kade.

And it gives you an opportunity to play a giant, man eating teddy bear. What more could you want from life?

[Guest]

Thanks for all the quick replies. I do plan, always have, to play what I want. No problems there. I just want my first games to not be such a total loss.

I had kind of thought about dropping candy for teddy. I will still have the stockpile of SS that people seem to want with this crew. Plus how can one resist a GIANT teddy bear.

I will be getting my crew soon. I will give some of these ideas out very quickly. Keep the advice coming. I will need all the help I can get.

[karn987]

Thanks for all the quick replies. I do plan, always have, to play what I want. No problems there. I just want my first games to not be such a total loss.

I had kind of thought about dropping candy for teddy. I will still have the stockpile of SS that people seem to want with this crew. Plus how can one resist a GIANT teddy bear.

I will be getting my crew soon. I will give some of these ideas out very quickly. Keep the advice coming. I will need all the help I can get.

My first major piece of advice with Pandora is start with just her box set and play that for several games. Play it untill you don't make many mistakes any more, especially beginner mistakes.

Then, and only once you have played it till you have a hold on what she and her crew does, would I suggest you consider swapping out models. Her box set is one of the best designed and quickly helps you get attuned to her style of play and what she is all about. But as people have said, her learning curve is a bit steep. But thats fine, it's not that bad. Just read your stats of all your models a few times and take your time as you play, you'll get it in no time ;D

About the SS Cache, she does generally want to go into play with at least 5ss left for her use during the game. The main reason, Project Emotions. She wants to be able to SS that casting total to high for models to resist it so she can layer the negative flip on Wp duels on her targets. After that she generally has the complete advantage as a model with a negative flip to a duel, can not cheat =D

Little tricks like that you will figure out as you go along, some are obvious like Project Emotions and others are more subtle. But read around, there are a good amount of posts dedicated to helping people out with her. Both as playing her and going against her.

One last piece of advice, if you have a choice of who you go against at the start, don't go against Sonnia or Perdita. Sonnia can counter your spells and really make your life hard and Perdita is a direct counter to you. This is not saying you can't beat them, but they are some of the hardest matches you will ever have to play. So if you think your up for it, go for it. You'll learn a lot playing your toughest opponents.

Also if your in for a bit of heavy reading, I have a tactica file composed of my thoughts and a bunch of others you may find interesting. PM me if you want a look at it =D. I don't have it posted here because it is huge >.>, though one of these days when I finish polishing it Ill get it up in multiple posts.

Edited July 13, 2010 by karn987

[Guest]

Thanks for the info. Of course my main oppenent pick Perdita as his crew. At least we will learn together and I will have cut my teeth with a tough crew an all the others will be easier.

[Ropetus]

Perdita is a direct counter to you.

Actually, both are direct counters to each other if by that you mean they strip their opponent of their defenses. Perdita makes Pandora lose her Expose Fears while Pandora makes Perdita lose Immune to Influence and Df 8 (since she only targets Wp).

At least that's how I've always understood it. It's a quite dynamic matchup where both need to go heavily on the offensive before the other gets a chance to drop em.

-Ropetus

[karn987]

Actually, both are direct counters to each other if by that you mean they strip their opponent of their defenses. Perdita makes Pandora lose her Expose Fears while Pandora makes Perdita lose Immune to Influence and Df 8 (since she only targets Wp).

At least that's how I've always understood it. It's a quite dynamic matchup where both need to go heavily on the offensive before the other gets a chance to drop em.

-Ropetus

Eh I always viewed Pandora as a direct counter to everyone because she doesn't do anything special vs Perdita that she doesn't do to anyone else that would directly effect her in a way that is significant that it doesn't do the same to others. If that made sense..... I think I just murdered the English Language >.>

But yeah, Pandora just happens to be a challenge for every master in the game. Perdita is the master that has something to combat that that she can't take away. And See the Unseen is great vs most things, but amazing vs Pandora as it removes her only real defense. Plus most of the family is stubborn (except for Papa Loco who is actually weaker vs her).

[Ropetus]

Ah, You're talking about Pandora vs. Perdita compared to Pandora vs. anyone else. My point was that it's quite similar for Perdita vs. Pandora compared to Perdita vs. anyone else. Versus others Perdita can be very self sufficient thanks to her Immune to Influence and insane Df, not so much against Pandy. They both usually have extremely solid defenses against most enemy attacks, but not against each other.

Besides, I would be more worried about Lady Justice: A bunch of Guilders affected by Blind Justice is much nastier than Perdita.

-Ropetus

[Csonti]

Besides, I would be more worried about Lady Justice: A bunch of Guilders affected by Blind Justice is much nastier than Perdita.

Not to mention that her totem can give even to Lady Justice herself the priceless Blind Justice thingy.

[Guest]

Thanks for all the replies. It has helped me a lot.It has confrimed my desire to do this crew. I know it will be a difficult to start with everyones help from here I will be able to do it.

[ddot]

What I've always enjoyed about Pandi is that she is more or less the counter to everything except Masters. Any Master with high WP is going to give her problems.

However, you can more or less wreak havoc on the rest of the opposing crew(s) with WP tests (Candy, Kade, and Sorrows are good for this.) Use the rest of the crew to wall in/box out/get in the way... and maybe go in for the kill on any Masters. Pandi herself is not good against masters, but crew can be useful.

[karn987]

What I've always enjoyed about Pandi is that she is more or less the counter to everything except Masters. Any Master with high WP is going to give her problems.

However, you can more or less wreak havoc on the rest of the opposing crew(s) with WP tests (Candy, Kade, and Sorrows are good for this.) Use the rest of the crew to wall in/box out/get in the way... and maybe go in for the kill on any Masters. Pandi herself is not good against masters, but crew can be useful.

Well I wouldn't say she isnt good against masters. Infact she is one of the best masters to go up against other masters I've found. If you get Projected Emotions up on the enemy master, you basically have them. If you can cheat high and SS your resist to high for them to resist, you move in with a few sorrows and finish them off with a few spells, Mostly Self Loathing. I've killed Lady J like this a good many times (gotta love her + flip on her greatsword making the flip a straight flip). She is an amazing assassination caster.

You are right though, the ones who give her trouble have high Wp, OR the ability to counter magic. Then it becomes a game of timing in where she needs to strike when she has a nearly full hand and the enemy has next to nothing left. Its very tricky, but a lot of fun.

[ddot]

^Well, I would defer to the following words of wisdom.

The main advice I give to every new Gremlin players is to not play your opponent. Play the strategies and schemes.

Honestly, it holds true for Pandi as well. I've been able to use her and her crew to draw games I should have lost and won games I should have drawn. Not because I was neccesarily able to annihilate the opposing crew, but because I was able to screw with the opposing crew's ability to score VP's.

It's that game-within-the-game which makes Pandi truly fun to play, win, lose, or draw.

Edited July 21, 2010 by ddot

[WoeIsMe]

i agree with ddot above... I generally find its better to just play the schemes and strategies than to try to outkill your opponent. Every game i play with pandora I can usually disrupt my opponent to at least draw the game when, if I was just going for body count, wouldve lost hands down everytime.

Not to say Pandora and company cant kill stuff... rather adept at it once all is worked out and you get a good solid feel for the whens and wheres of how to do it....

just my thoughts on the matter

[Guest]

OK thanks for all the help. Got to play my first game yesterday. Went against my buddy who had Perdita. Lost horribly but learned a lot. Now some of the comments given make more sense. Now even more ready to get this crew working.