Pandora and the Doppelganger strategy issues

[kyleb]

Fellow and Future undead friends,

I am struggling against a Pandora player, who pretty much slaughters me to the last model in 2-3 turns every game. His strategy goes like this.

Doppelganger copies fast movement and emotional truama. Moves within 12" of my models late in activation. Activates sorrows who link to Pandora. Activates Pandora. Incite and Pacifies his own crew that has moved forward, auto failing the duals so that she moves 4" forward. Moves across the board so that she and the doppleganger are within 12" of my crew. Casts the spell that makes me have -1 flip to my WP duals on someone he know will fail it because he will cheat it and put a soulstone into it. Incites and pacifies my whole crew (which I can no longer cheat because I am at -1 with at least 2 of them). Puts soulstones into all the ones that matter, does 2 WD to everyone, or at least a lot of them. Than casts self loathing on my master (any of them) and my failed dual because i am at -1 flip makes me take wounds plus the ability to damage myself with the attack.

He than retreats using incite/pacify on units to be out of my range. It seems that to matter how spread out I get, or how far away I stay or how many soulstones and cheated fate cards I use she just has to many abilities and range for me to do anything about it. She can do 6-8 damage to any model she wants, including my master because it is WD not damage and I cannot cheat it with -1 flip.

If Pandora/Sorrows/Doppelganger are not enough, he still has Candy and Kade sitting around to kill anyone left.

The advice I can find seems to be lure and kill sorrows. I would love to do this, but even when I do, Pandora just kills everyone left. Anyone have any more specific ideas?

[Angus Khan]

First off, it sounds to me like your opponent is casting way too many Incite/Pacify in one turn if he can do all that... I would double check your opponent didn't misread the card or something.

Second, which master do you typically use?

I would try using Nicodem to spam mindless zombies/canine remains. Engage the Dopp and Pandora (since they are apparently close by) with enough mindless zombies or canines to prevent them from casting all of the spells which are hurting you so much. Also, you could try to chain lure individual models away from the main group using Rotten Belles and then ganging up on one model at a time with several punk zombies. Bette Noir might also force your opponent to think twice before killing your models, since he could get Bette in the face. (preferably with Bolster Undead to make her even better)

Of course, McMourning could probably take on Pandora in melee quite easily if he can get close enough.

Hope this helps.

[Joona]

It seems that you've got at least one rule wrong. Firstly, because Incite and Pacify aren't spells, the Pandora player can't choose to automatically have his models lose the duels. If the resisting model is winning, he has to cheat the card down or Pandoras card up. Also a model can only be hit by EITHER Incite OR Pacify ONCE per turn, so she should not be able to knock that many wounds off of all your models. Or she will be in the middle of your army on her next turn... She also doesn't get to run around with the push after you fail resisting a spell, she only wins a Casting duel and you lose a Wp duel.

She should be burning through her cards and stones like no tomorrow. If she never gets a Black Joker or other small cards, check your opponents deck If she always has big cards in hand, also check your opponents deck. If your always having small cards, check that your opponent has not meddled with your own deck. If she's going through the whole deck she's bound to lose a duel at some point and if she does, she has no way to run away anymore. She can only do Incite and Pacify as long as she keeps winning the duels. I've never seen anyone win every duel they have in the game. Also, keep your models 2,5" away from each other and there's no way she can pull of Project emotions on more that one model at a time.

Nicodem and Seamus both have Wp7, that should make it a bit harder for Pandora to pull of her spells/tricks on them as both of you are just as likely to win the Wp vs. Wp duel and you have a small edge against her Ca6. McMourning is a bit worse off. Nicodems Rigor Mortis should make her scared too.

It hasn't been clarified yet if the Sorrows can move with Pandora while she's pushing forward with the Fading Memory, though after the errata it seems so. It depends on if the intent of Link is to push to b2b after a Move action or a movement effect.

If Pandora has the Doppleganger and Candy/Kade she shouldn't have too many models to activate all in all, unless you are playing big games. She shouldn't be able to "out-activate" your Ressers too much (unless, of course you don't have any of the cheap models like Necropunks or Canine Remains available to you, just proxy if need be). For the price of Candy and Doppleganger, you can have eight Canine Remains. You have a lot of cheap models available to you and if you're not playing Seamus you can just summon the big hitters. The Hanged will also make Pandora tread more carefully. You get one melee strike in and Pandora is pretty much dead with that flip on WP duels. Either that or she is forced to save the soul stones to defend herself from the Hanged.

Is there enough terrain on your table? Because for Malifaux there really should be a lot. Houses, forests, hills, walls and all kinds of other stuff. Open fields are a huge advantage to any shooty and spellcasting lists. Stay out of LoS and Pandora can't do that much to you.

Oh yeah, if she's having the Sorrows stick to her, target those buggers with blast generating attacks and have Pandy take some wounds. Also remember that Pandora must keep the Sorrows behind her most of the time. She can't move through them and they block LoS.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Joona

[Headcase2]

Well, for starters he can't auto-fail Incite and Pacify duels, they're not spells. Cheating down the defending model's flip is okay though, but it'll cost him cards.

Secondly, I don't see how he can get the Doppelganger across the board that quickly. It can maybe copy a movement of 5/8 from Teddy (or 6/10 if he brought a big daemon, but I haven't seen one in a Pandy crew before; or a Hooded Rider if he's proxy'ing), but that shouldn't place him in range of your entire crew by turn two (unless you blindly stormed forward with everything). Even if it does get there it's still very, very squishy. Throw whatever you can at it. Remember that it has most likely lost harmless already by taking 0-actions, and if it's racing across the board with something else's movement and Pandora's Emotional Trauma it will not have had a spare 0-action to regain harmless. It also can’t retreat the way Pandora tends to do herself. If you've taken a Convict Gunslinger along it’s harmless ability won't even matter and you'll get those ranged attacks most Res crews are so sorely lacking. Hans would work too, and he can stay far back and not be affected by all the nastiness. Mortimer's Fling Dirt attack is also great, but I'm not Morty's biggest fan. (Don't ask, it's personal.)

Next try and target the Sorrows (they only have a 3" range on emotional stress, so they're not as important as the Doppelganger). They'll be stuck to Pandora but lack the protection of her defensive abilities. If they're too far away because Pandy used Incite/Pacify to run for the hills you'll have to try some faster models (Necropunks/ Canine packs come to mind) or ranged attacks. Killjoy can easily ruin her day, appearing out of nowhere (necropunks using (1) sacrifice as their slow to die action = the ugliest thing that ever popped out of a surprise cake), and he'll kill a Sorrow in one hit with even a weak damage flip. Bête Noir isn't quite as good at this as Killjoy, but can still make short work of most targets.

A quick note on Rotten Belles: 8 wounds (killing them 1 wound at a time could take a while) + lure at Ca 8 versus Pandy's low WP crew (most of them have a 4 or a 5) can help your other models get in charge range.

Once her supporting infrastructure is crumbling you can try and go for Pandora herself. As long as she's not flying solo you'll just end up hurting yourself. Our masters will all have a different role to play in this fight. Nicodem will hang waaaaay back, and simply raise his losses back after she kills them (try and raise models with a lot of wounds, like belles, rather than the usual punk zombies if you find Pandora is killing them too quickly). Saemus will have to whittle down her crew from a distance while staying out of sight as much as possible before going in for the kill. Doug will probably have the hardest time (he’s the one most affected by self-loathing and sits around at a paltry 5 WP), so you’d best make sure you’ve got stones left to prevent damage once you inevitably start failing those WP duels.

Finally, some general strategy tips: Use terrain to block LoS while you’re advancing, especially with a melee-heavy army. Play the scenario and schemes, don’t try and go for wholesale slaughter out of habit. Have fun; if you can't win just make funny faces at your opponent while he's sipping his soda and maybe you'll win by default...

[Headcase2]

Oh, and try this link.

[kyleb]

Thanks. I will give it another shot (over and over, making funny faces where needed). I will try out a canine pack (my friend and i are proxying a lot until we decided what to play) and the hanged, maybe some belles. That seems like it will at least be fun, whether or not I win