Drowning injustice + twist and turn

[Pisa]

Yesterday i was playing jack daw, and a particular circumstance cause me and my opponent to had a discussion:

 

- jack attack a minion with suppressed memories, and attach to him the drowining injustice upgrade.

- after, target him with twist and turn, and decide to cause him to have a walk action,  the minion take 2 damages by drowining injustice??

- after that, jack target him with feel their torment, and use a tactical action, with a TN, and cheat it to fail... this cause 2 damages by drowning? additional 2 for lost a simple duel?

 

thank you for attention

 

Jacopo

[Mach_5]

The minion would take 2dg after the Walk action from Twist and Turn because the Minion is taking a Tactical action (even though Daw is controlling the action).

The minion would not take 2dg from Feel Their Torment because he is taking an opposed duel (not a simple duel) when resisting the spell, and if Daw succeeds then Daw copies and takes an action from the minion, the minion is not taking any actions so it doesn't take damage.   If Daw copied an action that could force the minion to take a Simple Duel and it failed (Daw is not controlling the simple duel in this case, so the minion's player could cheat normally), it could suffer damage from a failed Simple Duel.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Mach_5

[solkan]

As an exercise in spelling everything out...

So Jack attacks the minion using Suppressed Memories, declares the Final Fate trigger and attaches the Drowning Injustice upgrade face up.  Drowning Injustice grants an ability which ends with:

After declaring a Tactical Action other than Penance (including Actions such as Walk, Charge, etc) this model immediately suffers 2 damage which may not be reduced. This model suffers 2 damage whenever it fails a Simple Duel.

Then you use the Twist and Turn action which says:

Target non-Leader Tormented model immediately performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this model's controller. The Action may not declare Triggers.

 See pages 37 and 38 of the rulebook concerning actions.  In order to perform an action, there are three steps.  From page 37:

1. Declare Action & Spend AP

2. Perform Duels

3. Resolve Results

 From page 38:

Actions Causing Actions
Some Actions will force or allow a model to take another Action. If an Action calls for another Action to be taken (such as Charge or "Make A New Entry") then the additional Action or Actions do not cost any AP. The original Action is not considered resolved until the new Actions are also resolved.
Some Abilities may force models to do something when declaring an Action (such as taking a duel for Manipulative). For these Abilities, each new Action generated triggers the Ability separately.

 

So that's the block of text which tells you that when you work through "Target non-Leader Tormented model immediately performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this model's controller" that you don't spend the AP for that action.  You still have to declare it, and then go through the other steps for the action.

So when the player controlling Jack uses Twist and Turn, that target model declares the walk action and then suffers the two damage for declaring the tactical action.  Another result of these rules:  When Model X uses Obey (or some other ability or action) to cause Model Y to perform a walk action, enemy models get to perform disengaging strikes against Y because Y declares the walk action as part of resolving it.

When Jack uses Feel Their Torment, and copies the action, Jack isn't making the target model perform the action.  That means that Jack that declares the action, Jack flips for the duel, and Jack resolves the effects.

Immediately take a (1) Action which is printed on target Tormented model or one of its Upgrades which does not list a model by name. The Action may not declare Triggers.

If the rule doesn't say anything, then the instructions in the action are for the model who is performing the action.  None of that involves the model with the face up cursed upgrade, so no damage is inflicted by that.

 

[Pisa]

Thank you guys!

i was wrong on feel their torment action.... and using it for make a model perform one action.... simply misanderstanding ahah!