Magic Fixes and Grimoire Problems (FM Perspective)

[zeeblee]

Similar to other FMs and players here, my group has encountered some issues which I've figured out some fixes for.  But there is one issue I'm still mulling over.

 

To start, the issues which I've found "fixes" for (there are definitely limitations, but they generally fit with theme)

 

Darlin Theories being unappealing due to breaking focus:  Since this theory is sold as a crafting theory, the easiest fix to nuke TNs down is to take the Increase AP immuto.  Since I rarely see people animating constructs or limbs in the middle of combat, there really isn't much of a problem with those spells taking 3, 4, or 5 AP.  Though this doesn't fix the issue of whether or not the focus' cost is the book listing for cost, or the 25% cost of construction.

 

Soulstones mostly being useful to non-magic users using Critical Strike:  Utilize the Extra Suit immuto.  This is a nice way to drop a spell's TN by 2, and it can definitely be (ab)used for more than just making soulstones useful.  For example:  Dabbler 1, Graverobber 1, Specialized Skill (Sorcery, Tomes), and soulstone could have a spell with the suits of TCTT.  This example doesn't even have to cheat to guarantee the casting, so really if your player has a high card in their hand they could apply Extra Suit one more time.  This gets you a total of -8 to TN, which allows for some powerful augmenting immutos (like four applications of Fire to get Burning +4.)

 

The other issue with soulstones is cost, but everything in the book is supposedly as a Guild marked up value, so why not assume the same of soulstones?  I imagine the listed value is how much they sell for across the Breach, but in Malifaux (especially in soulstone rich mines) I expect they are much easier/cheaper to come by as long as you don't buy them from an official Guild storefront.  Now, going with the standard 25% value still doesn't quite make the full stones as efficient as dust (assuming dust doesn't get dropped in cost), so there is still more adjustment needed (but as a Fatemaster you can technically set the prices at whatever you feel like, so...)

 

But now the issue that I'm still having.  Outside of house-ruling the limitation I can't think of a way to keep a grimoire themed in its actual application.  For example, if I want the players using the awarded grimoire to only be able to affect living targets, so I include the Living immuto, there is no reason for them to just not apply the immuto to something like Elemental Strike if they want to smack a construct.  As stated, we can always just house-rule the thing, but I am finding it rather awkward from a RAW perspective.

 

Any responses to my proposed FM fixes as well as ideas for my continued problem would all be appreciated.

[Ad1]

Arcane Musings does not add a  to the duel total. It removes the need for it. Morbid Thoughts does the same for .(We made the same mistake at first but when we read it properly hads the 'Ah ha' moment. )

 

So your example requires a caster to:

1) Take the general talent talent Skill Specialisation Sorcery and;

2) Have access to two immuto being Additional Suit and Elemental Immuto Fire and;

3) Find a soul stone and then use a charge from the Soul Stone to get to add to a spell

 

so they can gain the condition Burn +2. it seems a costly way to get the extra damage in my opinon.

 

EDIT: Just want to add if a player takes Skill Spec Sorc Tomes they can't take Skill Spec Sorcery meaning they're needing the flip, cheat or soulstone to cast those Sorcery spells. Same applies for other magic skills and Skill Spec. It can be taken once per skill only. Fine if a player is happy to limit their later magic options I guess.

 

Also we have a Fated in our group with Darlin Theorist and we've had no issue with it so far. The Spell TN has to exceed the script cost of the pneumatic device to destroy it. To make a weapon custom pneumatic costs 20s. So even if it was a pneumatic rod (Custom Bludgeon (10s) with pneumatic (20s) it has a total cost of 30s and requires Artefacting Skill of 3 to make. How many characters are going to be pushing for a spell TN in excess of 30? Now the Darlinist has a rod that might heal someone, or cause terror or shoot fire from it or simply become a flaming club. We certainly don't use our Darlinist as only a construct builder. He can do as much as a mage of any other school really. Only he uses 'science'and the fuel of 'ether' and 'soulstone' to explain what he does. I think what is missing from this theory more than anything is how some players are approaching it. A pneumatic device of some kind does not mean just a limb or partial limb it could be anything. And tie it in with the focus immuto as suggested and Darlin theorists are quite powerful when they have the 'right tools to hand'.

 

As for your issue, I'd consider simply 'chaining' the grimoire to Living. It has some kind of link to the Living that makes it harder to use on anything else (increase TN's). Make it lower TN's on Living to counter perhaps. Rules aren't perfect for what you want. You could also just use some narrative link and declare to players the spells only work on living when channeled through that grimoire. But yes, thematically it seems Chaining from the genus immuto section is the main option to explore.

 

Hope my thoughts have helped a little.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Ad

[zeeblee]

(went back and edited this because I misread the suit rule on soulstones:  they can only be used for triggers and not AVs, so it turns out soulstones are actually rather useless for casting except for gaining or enchanting an item.  I still think Additional Suit is rather powerful due to the following scenario)

 

Thanks for the response!

 

Adding to the duel total vs removing from the TN of the spell is effectively the same thing unless you encounter an antagonist which removes suits from duel totals or other such specific nonsense.  The example of Fire immuto paired with Additional Suit immuto was chosen since they are of equivalent value (+/-2).  Assuming the spell is Elemental Strike (3   base), then assuming Dabbler 1, Graverobber 1, some sort of specialization on Sorcery (be it , , , or ), and a twist card you could build said Elemental Strike as:

 

Fire +3 TN3 :ram

 

This ends up working out because you have added four suits to the original cost ( :ram), and due to Dabbler + Graverobber end up treating the duel as TN3 :ram, which after Sorcery becomes TN3 .  So it now becomes rather absurdly easy to cast (though in the case of a simple duel you still need to worry about beating your targets resistance TN.)

 

For Sorcery in particular you could specialize in so that Dabbler would take care of the initial in half of the spells, and the specialization would take care of the initial in the other half.  Then just use Additional Suit to add in the one which isn't present (I think this is actually one of the biggest strengths of Additional Suit, as it makes an effective AV always useful).

 

The Darlin Theorist issue is mostly a character creation one as the most script a character can spend in the beginning is 10.  Now, if you rule that Darlin works off of the "Guild Value" (aka Book Value) of an object, then that "up to 10" really means "up to 40", so the problem is really easy to evade.  The issue is if you rule that Darlin works off of script spent, in which case that starting 10 is an issue unless you drop the TN of the spells a Darlinist casts (which is why I figured the Extra AP immuto was so good for Darlinist enchanters).

 

And yeah, chaining a whole grimoire definitely seems to be a sort of FM declaration as there is no real system for doing so.  This isn't actually a bad thing as I believe FMs should be willing to break out of "by the book" gameplay.

 

Thanks again, Ad!

Edited December 9, 2014 by zeeblee

[Ad1]

I don't know Zeeblee, I've been playing games with my group for a long time (about 20 years) and all I can tell you is that if I did that on a spell my FM and most the other players would look at me, cock an eyebrow and some would laugh while others would shake their heads. Sure I'd be allowed to do it if I pushed but I wouldn't fancy my character's chances to pick up any more narrative driven grimoires or other fun stuff the FM doesn't 'have' to 'give' me. Basically I bummed out our FM on the social contract part of the FM Almanac.

 

We kind of have an unspoken rule at our table. Just because you can do a thing does not necessarily mean you should. If fatemaster's are having trouble with their groups and RAW I'd suggest the entire group have a good read over the first 25 odd pages of the FM almanac. If everyone at the table is happy with your use of the additional suit immuto there is no problem. If some are unhappy talk it out. If one or two are arguing for it's use as written against the rest maybe it's time for some to find a new game. Roleplaying for the group I play with is largely a collective, cooperative, fun activity not a battle to implement the rules that will serve our c haracter's best. Only real feedback I can offer is if something doesn't work change it.

 

Regards,

 

Ad

[zeeblee]

In regards to the formation of that spell, I can actually pull in a bit from the other big discussion I'm involved with in MisterGone's thread.

 

Assuming our caster is "average max" (this means I'm discounting the very rare potential to get a 4 in either aspect or skill), we'll end up with an AV of 6 for our Sorceror.  Assuming this character has not gone through any Fate Steps (or just spent them on Manifested Powers), then this AV will persist for our "level" 2 character (Dabbler 1/Graverobber 1).

 

Ignoring a potential third immuto for this things grimoire we'll continue only playing with Additional Suit and Fire.  In the example above we have:

 

TN3 in order to get a 1/2/3 damage flip with Burning +2 and not care about what suit we flip.

 

If I'm remembering my probabilities correctly, the "average" value of card to show up is a 6 or a 7.  This means if we don't want to cheat or rely on positive flips that our AV should be 7 at the most for a good chance for the spell to go off.  That gives us an extra 4TN to play with, which translates to another two Fire immutos, giving us:

 

TN7 in order to get a 1/2/3 damage flip with Burning +4 and not care about the suit.

 

I actually don't see that as an exceptionally powerful spell given what mundane weapons can do.  This also isn't even taking into account the possible defense values, defense abilities, and defense triggers the target may have.  In essence, if one of my players threw this at me, I would actually not consider it to be playing the system.  Now, if they added in an extra suit because they had a cart in their twist hand that they were going to play for sure, and thus also knew they could accomplish a TN greater than 7, well yeah, that would probably kill or cripple most antagonists not designed for defense, but that would also be that character going all out to take the thing down.

 

So I fully agree with the player/storyteller contract, but I actually think TTB is designed well enough that it is incredibly difficult for players to game the system hard enough to make it unfun.  So far the worst thing I've run into is a Mercenary wielding a carbine in order to get :+fate unless I throw a few problems his way.

 

I just realized this thread sort of derailed away from the title since I realized the soulstone part of the formula didn't work, and thus it became more about me advocating for mages using Additional Suit for some easy TN.  There are definitely other easy ways for TN (Focus), so it's not like this is the only "abuse."

 

But yeah, to repeat what I said one small paragraph ago:  I actually think Through the Breach is quite good at handling abuse, because it doesn't actually offer up all that much room for it (I say before fully exploring the potential of Combined Spell, Balanced Five, and all of those tasty Elemental immutos...)