Some dumb death defying questions

[hypoking]

Not trying to dredge up the whole dead model's taking actions thing, but, as written, does death defying's heal stop Collet from dropping dead after she hits zero wounds? If I'm remembering right I think the consensus from the earlier conversation was that a dead model's still dead even if it heals after it hits zero.

 

Further, given that wound totals can go negative, does Colette heal from zero or from whatever her final total ended up being, assuming it was zero or less? If Colette has one damage remaining and she's hit for five damage, does the trigger heal her from 0 or -4?

[The Godlyness]

Well I would say she heals from zero, simply be because I can't find where you can be at negative wounds. Wanna shoot a quick reference page or quote? And or both.

[hypoking]

pg 46 in the big book

 

When a a number of points of damage is taken by a model it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

 

Emphasis added.

[HalcyonSeraph]

If DD's heal didn't stop Colette from dying what would be the point of the ability exactly? I just want to head off a potential "Do Terminators wear Terminator armor" argument.

[hypoking]

I'm not arguing intent here. Just wondering if people see the raw as supporting intent.

 

I will admit I'm vaguely curios to see if anyone has a rationale for why Collette's heal after hitting zero should be treated differently than the Killjoy scenario.

[Dracomax]

Well, the rules on the card always override the rules in the book, once errata is considered.

 

So, then the next step is to look at the wording of death defying, and see if there is conflict.

 

Death Defying: When this model is
reduced to 0 Wounds, it may be placed in base
contact with target friendly model with a cost
of 5 or more within 8". Sacrifice the target and
then heal an amount of damage equal to the
target's remaining Wounds plus one.

 

This does not directly conflict with the book, so normally the book would override it, but if we look at what it does, the intent is fairly obvious. Either it brings her back from death, or it just sacrifices a model for no reason. SO, RAW—as we currently understand it, given that questions about the timing of death have been extremely common lately—she should die, but RAI is really, really clear that she doesn't.

 

I think it might need an eratta, and definitely we need a better explanation of the exact timing of when death happens in the timing steps.

 

Edit. If the wording said "When this model would be reduced to 0 wounds, " We would be on much firmer ground, RAW.

[HalcyonSeraph]

I'm not arguing intent here. Just wondering if people see the raw as supporting intent.

 

I will admit I'm vaguely curios to see if anyone has a rationale for why Collette's heal after hitting zero should be treated differently than the Killjoy scenario.

 

Well, the Killjoy thing was based on a power that triggers when the target is KILLED, and happens in the wierd space between being killed and being physically removed from the table. Death Defying goes off when she is reduced to 0 wounds, which implies to me that it is a thing that happens INSTEAD of her being killed. 

[hypoking]

To clarify, nothing involved in the killjoy scenario involves triggers off killing. The killjoy scenario goes like this;

 

1-Killjoy (or any model with an applicable heal) is hit by a damaging attack with an obey trigger (Sybille or Collodi).

2-This attack does sufficient damage to reduce the target model to zero or fewer wounds.

3-Pursuint to Justin's comments in the above nightmare of a thread, the target model will resolve a (1) ap action.

4-The model heals in the course of that (1) action, putting their health above zero.

 

What happens in step 5 is anybody's guess.

 

link provided for reference.

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/99040-actions-causing-actions-when-a-model-is-killed/page-3

[The Godlyness]

 

I will admit I'm vaguely curios to see if anyone has a rationale for why Collette's heal after hitting zero should be treated differently than the Killjoy scenario.

 

I was not going to bring that up but it forces a strong argument either way. either Colette is dead and trigger is useless or you can heal from 0 wounds.

 

@ Halcyon Once you hit zero wounds the Book says you are killed and removed so her trigger fails. But the intent is Clearly that she should live.

 

Another question is that if she is at -4 wounds, does that mean she has to sac a model with 5 or more wounds to not die?

[HalcyonSeraph]

You are correct, I was misremembering how the Collodi trigger works.