Hipper Hopper Table Toper

Yes. This explains where you stand.

Too me the manual can be misleading there. But I sounds reasonable, what you are saying.

Sorry for the long discussion.

Thank you and the other people for taking the time and explaining things. I appreciate that vrey much. 👍

cheers

6 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

No, specifying a model and targeting a model are different things. Do you target a model when you choose it? No, choosing is part of paying costs for an Action or a Trigger, or part on an Ability’s effect. Adran specified he was wrong in agreeing that abilities have targets, and was clarifying that only Actions use the targeting step where a target is declared.

Abilities having a target is moot for Auras anyway, they do not target. A player never declares a model for the Aura to affect, the model is just affected if in range. 

Now I think that an Ability could target something, but it would need to have “target” in the effect text. I could be wrong, but I do not think a single Ability contains the word “target”. So no current Ability targets, but the rules have the design space to allow a future Ability to target.

The Once Per paragraph is defining once per turn and once per activation, it is not defining that abilities target. The paragraph you quote is specifically mentioning special restrictions (p. 23), which do not spell out that something can target. Special restrictions only define that the Action/Trigger/Ability is limited in what it targets (if it targets) or affects.

OK. I have to think about this.

Right now I'm not realy convinced, that you are right.

But I'm also not convinced anymore, that I'm right.

Actually I'm confused because one of my post`s has been marked as the answer. Who can do this? Does this mean my perspective is correct?

 

 

I think no, because the sheme of "A Fistful of Scrip" appears after you killed the model and therewith it isn't there in the moment you do the kill.

 

look. P.34/ 6c

 

There it is.

5 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

To be fair, the game term target is never explicitly defined. However, to target is when a player declares which model will be affected by the effects of an Action. The game term does have meaning as well, Terrifying uses the moment of being targeted to trigger the effect.

Attack Actions also do not require a target, it is only often required. Many attack Actions simply drop a shockwave, like Shadow Emissary’s Lightning Strike, and never target another model. A target is only required when an Action specifies that an effect will affect a target (many Attack & Tactical Actions).

Ok. The main qestion is: Do abilities have Targets?

 

Adran says no. Or to be fair he says the anwser might be wrong. (Thats one point where my english lacks training, but I think I got this right.)

On 9/24/2021 at 2:09 PM, Adran said:

Actually, I might be wrong here. Target only matters in step 3 of the resolving action process, so I can't see how an ability could target. 

But that doesn't change my view that choosing a model or affecting a model are not the same as targeting a model, and you need the word Target for it to target. 

(So you can hit a terrifying model with shockwaves without having to take a terrifying test because it was not the target)

But I say: I think they have targets.

Mainly because of two entrys in the manual.

Both on P.33

1. Bury/ Paragraph 2: "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities..."

2. "once per" Effects/ Parapraph 4: "Some of these effects have additional modifiers, such as being limited to targeting a specific model..."

 

The first indicates that there are abilties which targets something.

And the second as well, because I cant be limited in targeting, when there is no targeting.

 

In my opinion is the phrase "this model" or specific name a declaration of a Target.

While phrases like: a friendly model, a enemy model are unspecified target declarations.

Even if activ abilities goes automatically in effect as soon as the requirements are fullfilled, does they have a Target, which defines on what the effect appeals.

 

So? What do you think?

Do abilities have targets?

17 hours ago, Adran said:

1. ) ... Every attack action ( except shockwaves) tells you it has a target. They often say things like target takes 1/2/4 damage or push target 2'. Both are mentioning they have a target. 

Attacks target 1 model as a default, but they all tell you what they do to the target. They may do things to other models, but those other models aren't the target.

Tactical actions only target if they refer to a target in the action. ...

2. ) ....but target is a game term and if the action doesn't need a target then it doesn't target. 

1. ) No. Every Attack Action tells you It has to have a Target.

P.23/ step 3: Targeting/ Parapraph 2 says: "If the Action requires a target, the target must be declared at this step."

Attack actions are Actions that require a Target. And you have to specify the target.

If I take an Attack Action then I name the Target. Lets say the Target is Tara.

So I could also write "Tara suffers 2/3/4 damage" on the Card of my Attacking model instead of "Target suffers 2/3/4 damage"

But since you can take Attack Actions agains any model there is only written "Target"

Lets say this Attack Action could hit all enemy models with in range. (Obviously this would be totaly insane and OP, but it would possible)

Then it would have something written there like "Targets suffers 2/3/4 damage" and therewith I could write "Enemy Models suffers 2/3/4 damage" if  I would choose to attack the enemy.

 

2.) Where is this Term defined?

I get you right you refer to  P.23/ step 3: Targeting/ Parapraph 2.

If thats the case I have to mention that this is just a part of the explaintion how Actions are resolved, at least in my opinion.

Because there are certain Actions wich can be used on different targets and therefor needs the Target to be specified.

Thats the reason why this step exists in this part of the manual.

If every action would have a clear target, this step would be unnecessary.

 

If you still not convinced than look at

P.33/ "once per" effects

 

It says in paragraph 1 : "A model can only take an Action or Ability"

Like an action I have to take abilities (If they are not passive).

 

 

It says furthermore in paragraph 3: "...so a given model could... take multiple (once per Activation) effects so long as they were on different Actions or Abilities. ..."

So thats my point, an Action or Ability has an effect which comes into effect when the action or ability is taken.

To take an action or  active ability one must fullfill the special limitation requirments.

You argue it says "once per Activation" and therewith isn't relevant to our discussion. But I think this is the part of the manual where it is unclear.

 

furthermore says the last paragraph: "Some of these effects have additional modifiers, such as being limited to targeting a specific model..."

It says there are modifiers which limits a effect his available targets.

But It has a target.

 

On 9/24/2021 at 1:24 PM, Adran said:

No they aren't. This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara. 

Likewise if an ability asks you to choose a model (Such as Celebrity on Cassandra/showgirl) that model has not targeted the the chosen model. 

First of all I want to say that I want no bad Blood. Nor do I sit here and ask myself which possibilities I have to stress any of the very helpfull and dedicated People in this this Forum.

Therefore don´t get my constanly replies on this topic, as some hostile action.

Also keep in mind that I need to use the dictionary in many cases. So there will be moments where I misunderstand things.

And I'm also awere of the Fact that you are obviously more experienced, than I am. Much more.

But none the less can also a very good teacher misunderstand something because nobody is perfect. And I think thats the case here.

 

I think the phrase on P. 33 is not, like Maniacle_cackle stated, "pointless or redundant".

I think its written there with reason.

But I have say that this rule is unclear described. In my Opinion.

 

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1. Use of target/ special restriction terms

Who gets affected? Its not only the Modell with the Ability. And what/ whom do the ability affect?

If you look at P.23/ Step3: Targeting

It says: "In addition to costs, special restrictions are also written in italics and restrict the Action in some way, such as limiting the Action to targeting Friendly models only, or non-Construct models only."

 

a) YES! I know it says "written in italics and restrict the Action" so It don't apply here because we are talking about Abilities, not Actions.

      But if you look at this Step (Step3: Targeting) and at the Special Restriction Box at P.23, you will see that there are the same Terms like the ability descriptions.

      Why is that? Because an Ability needs a Target which is then affected by the  effect of this Ability.

 

b) You stated somewhere above: "No they aren't. This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara."

     (sorry I'm not sure how to quote in the middle of a reply)

     I say the effect which is triggerd, when the Special restrictions are fulfilled is the thing which affects the Target.

     In your example it would be Tara.

c) You also wrote somewhere above: "Just to say that you are not "targeted" by an aura. Target is a game term, and if an action or an ability does not say that it targets a model, then the models it effects are not targeted by that action/ability.  (Can matter for things like Terrifying which will only happen if you target that model. ) "

     If the underlined part is true, then a normal attack action couldn't be taken. I mean none of them specify a Target. I mean it's neccesary to have one, but there is

     no target described.

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2. Term: Abilities (the what)

    !!! Entries regarding the Term ablity are only on Page 4/5/24 !!!

a) On P.24/ Abilities is written: "Models have a range of Abilities that affect how they function on the table."

    In my opinion these Sentence does not say Models are affected by an ability. But rather it says the the way how a Modell works/function is affected.

b) P.4/ Models/ 3rd paragraph says: "Each model also has Abilities, which grant the character unique ways to deal with situations. This can include immunities,

    special ways to defend or move, or anything that isn’t already described by the model’s statistics."

 

    This sentence predicates pretty much the same like the sentence above (a)). At least in my opinion.

    Models have abilities which alteres the way they work by giving them "...immunities, special ways to defend or move..." and other things.

 

c) P.4/ Stat Cards/ nr.7 Abilities says: "Models have Abilities that change how they interact with the rules, such as making the model difficult to damage or

    changing how it moves. A model’s Abilities are always considered to be active during an Encounter unless otherwise indicated in their description."

    The underlined part predicates once again, the same like a) and b) allready do.

   Lets keep the second Part in Mind for later. Look under 3. Abilities (when)

 

d) P.33/ "Once per" effect says: "A model can only take an Action or Ability that is once per Activation once during an Activation. A model can only take an Action

     or Ability that is once per Turn once on any given Turn."

     So once again abilities are in most/ some cases an aktiv thing. You have tu take/use that Ability.

 

     Further more it says in the last paragraph: "Some of these effects have additional modifiers, such as being limited to targeting a specific model once per

      Activation. These work the same way, with the specific limitations mentioned."

     One could argue that this only applys to "once per" effects. But why do a whole lot of other Abilities have this restriction too?

 

e) P.5/ green box bottom right says: "The big things to remember: Abilities ... are things that your characters are always doing, and Actions ... are things that they

    do when it’s their time to shine (aka their Activation)."

 

Here it says that caracters are doing Abilities. so it is somehow an action. I don't mean the game term I mean its something that the Model is actually doing.

Not something which affects the Model.

 

This is everything which I could found regarding the definition of the term abilities, as I looked it up.

Like I wrote at the start of this post, nobody is perfect. So let me know if I missed something.

If I don't missed something, than your Statement: "This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara." is false.

Because an ability does't affect a model but rather the effect which is caused by the Ability when the Special restriction are fullfilled...

 

AS LONG... they are activ (look up 3.)

 

My Definition of Ability:   

1. An Ability is (Surprise) an ability which  can/ must(?) be taken if they are activ.

2.Which grants effects that alter the gameplay of this model.

2a) This can be passive, so that this ability is always concidered as aktiv.

2b) Or it can be activ, which means it can/needs (?) to be taken when the restrictions for this ability are fullfilled.

 

 

3. Abilities (the when)

a) P.24/ Abilities/ 2nd paragraph says: "Most Abilities are passive, meaning that they are always in effect. Some Abilities, however, are active and create

     certain effects in reaction to other events on the table. When an active Ability goes into effect, resolve the effect step by step in the order it is listed on the Ability."

 

a1) Passive "Most Abilities are passive, meaning that they are always in effect..."

     E.g. Hard to wound, Ruthless, Armor, Beyond Time (Tara), Flameborn (Banasuva), Eyes on the Prize (Lord Cooper), gunfighter (Sue)

     All this abilities have one thing in common. They have no special restriction terms like: when model do this, at the start of the activation, etc.

     Thats why these Abilities are always in effect aka. passive.

 

a2) Activ "Some Abilities, however, are active and create certain effects in reaction to other events on the table"

       E.g. Demise/ elemental breakdown (Banasuva), Entropy (Ashen Core), The most dangerous Game (Lord Cooper) AND Cruel Disappointment (Titania)

       And this ability was the starting point.

       All this abilities have another thing in common. They need to be taken if the special restriction are fullfilled.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   

Round Up:

 

The Ability in question is: Cruel Disappointment (Titania) which reads as follow:

"When a friendly model within3 would suffer severe damage, it suffers Moderate damage instead. "

Do this ability work if Titania is buried and loose due to an Attack all its Healtpoints.

 

I say no because:

1. its an aktiv Ability and has to be taken(Look up 3.)

2. Buried Models can't be targeted by abilities which do not specifically target buried models. (P.33/ Bury)

3.It has aditional modifiers/ restrictions which dictates a target (The underlined parts of the rule are the restrictions, the Target is written in Fat letters )

4. The Aura is only the effect of this ability. So it doesnt matter what's written on P. 30/ Area effects because the abililty which grants this aura can't be taken.

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 I think I have a lot of real good arguments on my side. But like I said: "Nobody's perfect."

I'm typing since aproximatly 5h. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so. But if yes, i could train my english skills a bit.👍

 

And since I typed ability so often, I will do it once more and tell you that I have an ability, which alters my letters and therewith possibly the grammar.

Is reads as follow: "If you type sOme Text oN The Computer, You may may press Often The ShifT Botton. You may read the Whole Text again to correct it, but you dont have to."

This is the reason for any wrong capital letters.

 

cheers

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

Because it is possible for an ability to target a model. I can't think of an example at the moment, but it is possible for it to happen. 

which terms should be written there to make clear that this ability needs a target?

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

No they aren't. This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara. 

Likewise if an ability asks you to choose a model (Such as Celebrity on Cassandra/showgirl) that model has not targeted the the chosen model. 

But why it says: "Buried models cannot be the target of any ... Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models." on p. 33 under Buried?
This is pointless rule if abilities dont target a Unit in general.

 

and: yes... you are right. the Aura doesnt target a unit. But the ability which grants an Aura does.

 

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Just to say that you are not "targeted" by an aura. Target is a game term, and if an action or an ability does not say that it targets a model, then the models it effects are not targeted by that action/ability.  (Can matter for things like Terrifying which will only happen if you target that model. )

 

 

But aren't Phrases like "this Modell" or "friendly modell" Target specifications?

E.g. Beyond Time from Tara : This Modell may target Buried models with Actions, ignoring range and LoS.

 

The Target of this Ability is "this Modell". Am I wrong?

 

2. And The Cruel Disappointment Aura is part of an Ability from Titania. At least its listet at the frontside of her card which has the Topic "Abilities".

14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Can you give an example of an aura you think this rule would apply to?

I think he is right in this specific point.

 

"These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the
position of the Buried model, such as range, LoS, a,
p, moving the Buried model, etc."

 

Because the modell isnt't there it ignores all this stuff, because this things need the modell to be there.

 

E.g: Tara/ Soulstone sword+ Beyond Time: Tara acctualy need  a Target in range, but there is no modell which can be targeted, because this modell is buried.

So her  Attack Action can ignore range and LoS.

11 minutes ago, Zoer said:

...It's a permanent ability of a model....

 

 

"Buried models cannot be the target of any ... Abilities..."

6 minutes ago, Zoer said:

A: Aura rules say "All models inside the Aura’s area, including what is generating the Aura, are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object."

1. There's nothing about targeting a model, it just says "affects". So, "buried models cannot be the target" should not apply here.

2. LoS rules say that a model always has LoS to itself. Regarding range, there are no clear rules about it. It's just said that range is a distance from one object to another. So, I assume that a model is always in range of itself, just like with LoS.

If a model is on a table, there's no question whether it's affected by its own aura, but we never check for range.

 

1. On Page 33 under BURY is written in the second Paragraph: "Buried models cannot be the target of any ... Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models"

Titania is Buried. So she cannot be the Target of the Ability Cruel Disappointment.

So it Doesn't matter what's written in the Aura rule, because this is an ability and cannot be used on buried modells.

 

2. If there is no Model, because its not on the Table then it cant have line of sight. There is also no marker, which indicates where your modell is buried (located).

But in my opinion is the 1. Argument the importent. since its prohibit the use of this ability at tiania. because : Buried models cannot be the target ...

Thats my view....

 

cheers

 

Yes. You are right.
In my Real life it doesn't apply....
I have the Abillity to read. But oviously this Aura wont work on myself. 🤪

Thanks again...👍

If I get the Rules right it should be no. Since on P.30 is written:

"An Aura extends out in all directions from an object ...   measured from the edge of the object’s base"

Since the Aura starts at the edge of the Base of the origin modell, this modell is not within range.

 

Am I Wrong?

1 hour ago, Zoer said:

Well, I think "These actions" stands for "actions that specifically target buried models" as they actually ignore position effects.

Regarding Titania's aura, it affects all friendly models and not the enemies. It does not matter if an enemy model is within the aura's range. That's why I think Titania is still affected by her aura, despite being buried.

As far as I understand the Rules it says; "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models".

So the only possiblity to attack a buried Model is with an ability like Beyond Time from Tara: "This Model may target Buried models with actions, ignoring range and LoS"

and all "These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position of the Buried model, such as range, LoS, , moving the Buried model, etc."

 

And regarding buried modells (Titania) it says:

 

1. "Buried models are removed from the table, though they are still considered to be in play"

So titania isnt there. So you cant draw line of sight, so the Aura cant be used.

 

2. "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models"

So titania cant be targeted by her own ability.

6 hours ago, Zoer said:

...aura affects its creator...
 

Is that so? Does Aura affects its Creator?
 

ok. good to know.

 

I'm slowly getting into it.

Thanks as always for answering my many questions.

Quote

One other thing to remember, whilst you can't declare a charge if you are engaged, you can use the charge movement to move through engagement, whilst the walk action can never leave engagement.

 

Wait, to understand you right.

I made a Sketch.

Model B can use "charge Action" to move through the engagemant range (red) of model A, without geting engaged? Correct?

yeah thats what I thought. Just wanted to be sure.

Thanks for the fast reply.

 

I have two questions.

1. Can I use "Battle Tempo" or "on the Move" to get out of the enemy engagement range, so that I dont have to use the "Disengage" Action?

I would say yes since they are not a "Walk" nor a "Charge" Action. Am I correct?

 

2. Can move through a model's base with "on the Move"?

As long as my model do not stand on this base at the ond of this 3" movement it should be possible, right?

Here are the affected Rules:

 

Battle Tempo: During the Start Phase, this model may Push up to 2" in any Direction.

On the Move: At the start of this model's Activation, it may move up to 3", ignoring other models.

 

Sorry if this Question is somehow stupid.

Thanks for your help

 

ok. Thanks for the help.
 

to all of you. 👍😀

Ok. Thanks for the answers.

But one more question regarding the soulstones. Just to be sure.

PiersonsMupeteer said: "Only one soulstone per flip/damage instance."

And Solkan said: "No, you can't spend more than one soul stone on the 'Enhance a Duel' option, or the 'Block Damage' option, or the 'Reduce Damage' options.  During the resolution of an action you can spend a soul stone for each of those options."

So I could use up to three soulstones in total if an enemy is attacking me.

One for "enhance a duel", a second for "block damage" if the the enemy won the duel and a third for "reduce damage", right?

 

@solkan You said: " It wouldn't be unheard of for the defender to spend a soul stone for a positive flip on resist (increasing the odds that the damage flip agains them will have a negative fate modifier), spend a soul stone to block damage (to add a negative fate modifier to the damage flip), and then to spend a soul stone to reduce the damage--if the defender has the resources and the need to keep a position. "

 

I misphrased the Question. I know that. 🙃

anyway, thanks for the help guys.

 

 

A friend and I played some more rounds and had some more discussions about the rules and how we think they are meant.

There where a couple of unclear points.

I hope you can help me, so that I can keep my dear friend and not gonna lose him due to a dispute over rules of a great game. (Kidding)

Here are the points.

 

1. Damage Flips

 

Is there actually a limit on how much or someone can get to a flip?

 

 

2. Disengage Action

 

The action is solved by an duell and does no damage but decrease the (MV) of the the fleeing model, if successful? Right? (pg. 22)

 

 

3. Cover

 

A model only gets cover if it is in the shadow and one LoS is going through the object the shadow belongs to? (pg. 19)

Correct? Are there other ways to get cover?

 

4. Soulstones

 

Can I spend more than 1 Soulstone per duell or damage flip to get more or ? (enhance a Duel, Block Damage pg. 27)

 

 

5. Movement

 

Does a model need to climb down as well?

 

Example:

Charles Hoffman stands in front of a small fence which has a height of 1”.

He wants to walk up and needs to climb over the fence.

Does he only need 1” for the fence, because he only needs to climb up and jump down on the other side or does he need 2” because he has to climb down?

 

I would say 2". Right?

 

6. Hoffman crew/ Hunter

 

Power Converter ability:

 

It says: Before performing a duel, this model may discard a Power Token to ....

 

Can I use more than 1 Power token per Duel?

 

 

Hope you can Help me and safe a Friendship. ^^

 

cheers

 

 

 

RTFM .... Shame on me. ^^

Ok thanks. Now the Noob is illuminated.

Thank you very, very much. ^^