MrPieChee

I feel like this is pointing to a flat summoner ban rather than an expensive totem ban - is it worth just saying you can't take a master that is a summoner instead? Perhaps leave in henchmen summoners (there's not many, and they're very limited). Although, if just removing a totem makes the summoners playable, then perhaps that's better?

IDK, just brain vomiting!

In most situations the master is cheaper if they have an expensive totem. I know dreamer has just had his price increased, but that doesn't make much sense, and it's difficult to price masters when they are normally free. Further to that, masters are never balanced without their totems, so saying some masters can't use their totem, is probably the same as saying "you can't use this master". It's not necessarily a bad thing to exclude some masters from some formats, but we should be clear that that's what's happening.

Double masters throws most of this out of the window though (in terms of pricing, and how that is achieved).

It's also worth mentioning that masters are balanced against their keyword, and that's the point of the OOK tax - to reduce the burden on testing/balance. If a model is balanced in keyword, then an extra tax OOK should mean nothing is too crazy. Of course this doesn't seem to be true with cheap models since they are very underused in many cases, so dropping the tax should be fine...

[Edit: well it turns out half the totems  7 SS  or above are cheaper - but since in most cases the totem is free, I don't think the cost really relates much to their power]

I like making it a henchmen leader thing simply because then you don't have to worry about losing some totems.

You could have a requirement that you must take the maximum number of one type of in keyword minion.

This has two bonuses - a large number of SS go into keyword, limiting shenanigans, and you actually get to use the full set of models you bought!

But, this is a great casual format!

34 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't think that really holds up. After all with hired upgrades you still find they appear on the more elite models unless you really want them for that minion ability, and even then they often go onto durable minions to keep that ability.  (You can  probably create upgrades that are best on smaller models, but you really need to make that the focus of the upgrade for it to work, as most of the time it is safer to put them on the bigger safer models to get the best effect from them. Even Von Schills upgrades that just add actions to a model are still more popular on bigger models, although that might be because leap on a larger model is great, as is extra shielding, and those are the two I hear about the most. Rocket launchers, grenade launchers and mines ought to be better on the smaller models especially since you have special rules on the friekorpsmen to not lose the upgrades after 1 use. 

That's because they are a limited resource that has a relatively high cost, so you don't want to waste them on a model that can die easily.

If you could pulse 'free' upgrades, and you had enough to go round then the cost is low enough that putting them on low cost minions is worth while.

If it takes a master ap to put a single upgrade on a model, then that is a high cost. If it takes a single master ap to give 8 gremlins fast, that is a low cost. Sure you get less benefit from a 2ss model being fast, but you can afford more in your list, so have more options open.

On 4/29/2021 at 11:18 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

But I think Marcus shows that you need to have a pretty good baseline for a model to be worth buffing (especially if it takes master AP).

This is only because Marcus puts an upgrade on a single model at a time (or two with a trigger). If Ulix pulsed upgrades, or applied them at deployment there wouldn't be a need to only place them on elite models. More than two of each type would probably help as well.

The inclusion of the word "these" makes me think it's just scrap marker pit traps friendly models ignore.

With most games, you tweak rules, faq+ errata, then it becomes too much and you up version releasing everything fresh.

I would imagine we have errata for explorers coming then errata for titles then we will see M3.5e.

The forum is filled with little tweaks people want to see - wyrd seem surprisingly good at making a small change that affects more than expect, in a good way. But there's only so far that can go.

I'm sad to see nothing to fix Rasputin (although never played her, so can't be sure if everyone saying she's terrible is something I should worry about).

As far as summons go, it looks like the card errata generally nerfed summoners, then the core rules errata nerfed summons, then GG2 nerfed summons again. I would have been happy with summon tokens and the nerf to summoners - it would have make playing games much easier than the current mash up! Most games you could have ignored the tokens because most crews won't have a model which could have taken advantage of them.

The way I read the errata release, there will be another explorers errata in less than an year (3 months?) which might have some other changes...

Make healing energies stat 4 on bokor, and stat 5 on lightning bug...

I've also not played with wizz-bang, but I'm sure most of the previous discussions have centered around glowy tokens not being quite right - only Wong can put them on the opponent's models, and hard knock life in a squishy crew is painful.

Making lightning bugs better at healing would probably help - they are cheaper than bokors.

I would say, either most models need to be able to add and use glowy on the opposing crew, or Wong needs to not add it, reworking his abilities. (Glowy could be added to Wong himself or nearby wizz-bang models)

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

They had Rasputina and Kaeris, and I had Molly. Condition removal, condition ignore, and marker removal. Needless to say, it was not a positive experience xD

This is exactly the issue - there are lots of rock paper scissors moments in Malifaux, which is part of what makes the tactical and crew construction so great. But, it's a massive hurdle for new players. The forum threads on masters are useful, but I feel like wyrd should do something in the app to say: these are this master/keywords strengths; this is how you counter them. That would keep those players interested who buy a box or two, loose every game and stop playing. If you know it's because you're being hard countered as a beginner then you can work around it (by getting a box that helps you, or playing against a different master until you want to invest more). Having to search for tactic articles on masters of varying quality can be a huge chore - it seems to be what I spend a lot of time doing, but that mind game of the hobby is probably my favourite bit - but that's not shared with most players.

13 hours ago, Scoffer said:

The question is: how many models seem problematic in context of summoning? Is 2 or maybe 3 a large number?

Same question here. How popular are those small sized games? Isn't it better to create special individual rules for them instead of trying to rework general rules created for normal sized games?

Well, I'm not an experienced enough player to answer this with any conviction, but from forum traffic it would appear that there are concerns with every summoning master, and a few outliers. These feelings aren't universal, but I believe they are felt amongst most non-top-table players.

From my experience, Malifaux suffers from a similar 'problem' that the PC game league of legends does - the feel of balance is completely different at different levels of skill. Riot do a lot of work to balance at several levels of skill to make sure players have fun no matter their skill level.

@Thatguyis probably right that it's probably best to leave the 'normal' game mode alone and work on variant rules to meet a different style of play (lower stones, less feels bad moments - probably targeting new and medium skill players).

On 4/14/2021 at 4:26 PM, Scoffer said:

Unfortunately m3e wasn't balanced and tested for low ss games. And you'll never get real malifaux experience in 30ss or 35ss games - some crews will be too strong and other will suffer greatly from lack of models and synergy. 

That's basically where I would like to see more changes go - balance for more game sizes/formats. From my collection of tabletop games Malifaux is the only one not balanced for a range of sizes. I'm not saying it's easy or even possible with a game like Malifaux, but that's why we're discussing it.

23 hours ago, solkan said:

Let’s be honest and frank about it:  Anyone posting a blanket change on summoning is wasting everone’s time.

I think this couldn't be further from the truth. If you've got a collection of models/unit/etc which need a fix you can do it two ways: fix every model individually, or find the common thread fix that, and then adjust the outliers.

Now, if you're trying to fix a small number of models the former is usually best, a large number of models the latter.

However, lots of different rules or different changes leads to complexity. Blanket rules/changes often lead to a more elegant game and are a fundamental of good game design. There is a balance between simplicity and elegance, but used well blanket rules can make it much much easier to balance a game.

4 hours ago, Scoffer said:

The very idea "can't summon it unless you hire it" is ridiculous. A Swine Cursed has Demise ability which summons a Piglet or a Bayou Gremlin when Swine Cursed is killed. So I have to spend 6 ss on models I don't actually need in my list to make 1 ability of a 7ss model work. The same for Sammy - 7 stones tax to make one bonus action work. Taxidermists and Pigapult immediately become 2ss more expensive (3 if hired not in Wong crew). And Zoraida will never have her Voodoo Doll, because it can't be hired (and therefore summoned) at all.

Hmm... Ok, yes, there are some issues, however:

Demise 'replacements' to my mind shouldn't be summons, and not working in HHC already seems a major reason to change them.

The pigapult I feel is similar to demise - it's not really summoned, it just turns up with it. So again should be changed simply for HHC.

Taxidermists and zoraida sit with Reva in that it completely breaks down.

So, saying it's ridiculous when half of your examples already have the same pitfall in an existing game mode seems very over the top. It seems ridiculous to me that a fair chunk of models have abilities which aren't usable in a popular game mode, and summoning masters are incredibly over powered in low SS games, and many argue still overpowered in the standard format. I'm just spitballing ideas. It's really difficult to get across tone in text discussions, but I feel this is being shot down much harder than it deserves - I am new to the game, so it could just be an awful idea.

But, the suggestion that you can't summon models you don't start with wasn't the important bit, it was a side note which could be interesting that I have seen brought up before, although I don't remember a similar reaction. I'm happy to agree that there are currently too many pitfalls for it to be considered any further.

In the case of Izamu and Genbu the card states that they are the same in every aspect.

When actually playing the game in person it's really easy to keep track of, but not so easy in vassal or in the Malifaux app. At the side of the table you have three sections for models - those killed more than a turn ago, those killed last turn and those killed this turn. At the end of each turn you shuffle the models in the later two sections down one.

The extra minons would start the game in the "dead more than a turn ago" pile. If you don't play the "little tweak" then everything you want to summon goes in that dead more than a turn ago pile. If you only play that you can't summon stuff killed this turn, then you only need two sections for your dead models.

It's a bit wordy, but in reality I normally place my models into a conga line as they die, so it would be trivial for me to manage. Gaming areas with limited space might struggle a little.

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

But by your changes you can't summon a zombie unless you hired one, and you can't summon a zombie if one dies this/last turn. You may have been referring to summoning more than 10ss, but that wasn't in what you wrote. So all those models with minor summoning of a cheap model become much harder to summon those models because you have added these hoops. So the change has a minor effect on the main summoners (who get to choose what they summon so can probably turn) and a huge effect on models which only summon 1 type of model, because I can stop them summoning just by killing something that is typically cheap and easily killed. 

 

 

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying. The possible tweak was exactly that, a possible tweak that I wanted opinions on. But hiring a single 2ss minion to get access to summoning 5x 2ss minions seems reasonable to me.

As for a single zombie dying - you've still got four more to summon if you have none on the table... I re-read my post and I think it's obvious I meant specific model rather than type of model, although I could have added the word 'specific' to make it clearer.

It was just a suggestion/idea.

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

You are trying to fix "big" summoners and completely forget about "minor" ones. All your solutions make models like Spawn mother and Sow almost worthless and nerf models like Pathfinder and Carrion Emissary and even Reva - which definitely don't need a nerf. 

I'm not sure the above change would have much affect if any on those summoners... How often does the carrion emissary summon more than 5 zombies in a turn? Or the spawn mother to spawn more than 3 gups in a turn? Etc? Minor summoners by definition struggle to do anything other than minor summoning. (Reva would be hit hard though)

I get the feeling from Facebook and this forum that for new to medium skilled players there is a bad feeling associated to loosing a game to a summoner compared to other masters (although Malifaux has lots of hard counters which create equally bad feelings amongst new players). If a variant of the game that's widely accepted fixes this then there will be more opportunity for the game to grow.

As with any change there is a chance that other balances will be needed along side it. That doesn't mean that the change should be ruled out.

Gaining grounds opens the door for lots of optional rules for players to make use of to make the game more enjoyable for their style of play.

I'm digging this up a little, but after reading a little kirai battle report I had a very simple idea which could come in two grades depending on how much you feel the balance for summoners is off. It doesn't solve all of the problems (if you consider summoning an issue rather than the resources available to summoners) but I have a little tweak for some of that.

So, first level: a model killed this game turn cannot be summoned in this game turn.

Second level: a model killed last turn cannot be summoned in this game turn.

And then, the tweak that some have already mentioned: You can only summon models in your starting crew, where you only need to bring one of a minion to be able to summon any of them.

14 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Juju is not the model to throw deep forward. Without two bokors healing him he melts like butter (and eats all your stones). DF3 = every attack hits.

I feel that if bokors get their likely nerf then JuJu is going to need a buff. I see lots of people on the fence about including JuJu or the spawn mother, which perhaps means they both need a buff irrespective of changes to bokors!

On 4/5/2021 at 3:20 PM, Puff-chan said:

As the title says, the app wont start on my phone, it always freezes on the launch screen.
I've tried reinstalling the app multiple times, starting it with and without internet access and still no luck.

I'm using a Samsung Galaxy S8. 

Any ideas? I'm at a bit of a loss here. 😕 

I used to have a similar issue - if I turned off WiFi and data it worked fine. After it loaded I could turn WiFi back on without issue.

Not sure if it was an update or new phone, but I haven't had the issue in a while.

I think using it as a way to balance characters is terrible - if a character is op or weak, just errata it. Don't make an alternative that you can optionally play, fix the one that currently exists!

However, alternative cards for different play styles or stations seems like a great idea. Wizard beater pandora? That sounds awesome! Master lord chompy bits even better! Master Georgy and Olaf with enforcer Somer, hilarious!

It adds a lot more effort to balancing crews, but it feels like there is enough tournament data about to support more cards. You could just restrict the alternatives to friendly games, much like DMH.

I'd like to think it wouldn't cause issues with sales - players who like limited play styles will end up with more masters in those styles so it could actually drive sales. Also, hard to play masters could have easy to play alternative cards so that everyone is accessible to players of all skill levels.

Is the damned critical? I.e. how well did Euripides work before the damned's release?

I bought his core box and Cyclops's a while back but haven't played with them - my impression of him is simply from reading the forum. But, thier hasn't been a lot of talk since the Damned's release...

8 hours ago, ScottishMetaLew said:

Hey I more then happy too. Do you have any specific advice you're looking for or just general tips?

The general view from reading the forum is that Euripides is the worst master from neverborn and generally bottom tier, so anything to dispell that would be great!

A battle report from your recent games would be ideal, but that can be a lot of work.

Just had a thought for the minions:

Steelclaw Stinger - the creature the arcanists scorpius was made from.

They could basically have a watered down scorpius profile. More poison in a Marcus crew might be a nice alternative. A minon to help shut down soul stones and triggers would a useful tech piece for neverborn.

If you take the scorpius card, drop armour, adaptive evolution, the feeding, reduce strike stat to 6(or5?) then reduce cost to 5ss? Might have to lose an hp or two as well.

All should be versatile, but if the enforcer and henchman have a keyword as well, then some holes can be plugged (assuming the box is henchmen+enforcer+two minions).

Fae, mimic and savage only have a single henchmen.

Mimic and savage only have a single enforcer.

Not sure what to do about minions - I'd like more puppets or half-bloods. Some tech picks for neverborn are probably most useful, but I'm not experienced enough to say what.

25 minutes ago, muraki said:

If you want, you can always go to the card dropbox and print your own cards.  I've done it a few times + have my printer set to black and white, and they come out readable (a bit dark as most things do when you go from color to black and white).

I've already downloaded them all, but the backgrounds and some of the art waste a lot of ink. I feel like it wouldn't be too hard to put a filter on them to reduce the ink wastage, but it would certainly be easier for wyrd to do, providing they have the time!

One (or two?) of the beta m3e apps could do it - if the rules could be updated in them it would be great!