extremor

Lucius works with a lot of guild these days: lawyers, investigators and false witness are the minions, Alan Reid and agent 46 are the henchmen. 
 

there are some decent ook/versatiles in NVB: mature nephilim, black blood shaman, serena, angel eyes, vasilisa, dolls, rider work in different setups. 
 

I use changelings as imitators for Lucius‘ issue command and for scheming turn 3-5. depends. Doppelgänger is a decent schemer as well

Are there any informations on the included models? Does each faction get new models or maybe new playable characters????

I fought von stook yesterday. I had a pretty hard time due to his „no upgrades“ aura and I thought that if adaptive evolution moved to the upgrade cards v.S. Would be a really hard counter. Esp with Anna lovelaces „no place“ aura. 

11 hours ago, Roadhouse said:

I think Z is better for the Vasi style lists becuase she makes the scrap to summon off of. BBS are also better with Z because their interaction with Bokors. Serena is a straight baller in Luci though because he is better at finding the high tomes for her Hole in the World.

I can see the use of Vasilisa in Z Crews. She also fits in Lucius‘ very good! Cause of the staggered mechanic and if you love Alan Reid like I do, you might want to use Vasilisa to make him real good✨🤗✨ and there are other synergies:

1.Lucius‘ card draw gives you the 9(+) Mask you need to summon

2. Vasilisa fits in well paired with BBS to grow into mature first turn. 
3. you can use false witnesses to their max. First you can activate „tell the truth“ without activating the witness (manipulative). Distraction aura, adversary or tell the truth makes stiched (and Allan) much better. 
 

Yes Lucius likes ook/versatile a lot. Which is määäh imo cause it shows, his keyword lacks... 

BBS, Mature, vasilisa, dolls, stiched, angel eyes, serena are the ones I use most often. 

You’re missing out on Lucius... darn good carddraw. 

@74legion there are a lot of threads around here discussing nerfs and buffs. I completely understand the motivation since I love Lucius and consider him very hard or impossible to play only in keyword... I heard Seamus is another example. I wish for wyrd to balance/buff some of these crews but I think this also means nerfing some others.  
BUT: I also think that Threads like this that ask for advice winning against a particular master/keyword are essential. Getting advice from others and consider new tactics often is a more pleasing way to play instead of waiting for the next errata. I struggled hard against kirai for a long time and finally understood her crew so lately she wasn’t that much of a problem to me. That’s why I shared my experience as a Dreamer player. Even though I also think he could use a nerf!!! 

I play Dreamer myself and against Dreamer I always advise towards  mobility! chose schemes that can be scored by running around dropping markers. Use models that get out of engagement easily or can push others out of engagement. Kill his daydreams with ancient pact cause they are very essential. And if he brings widow weaver: kill it or use tech to remove the webs. Pressure him by scoring early and when his slow mechanics come into play you have to lead. So the Dreamer has to decide: killing or scoring. Without the AP-Daydreams he is slow and will react instead of acting and leading the game. 
That’s the ideal situation. Work towards it. It ain’t easy. I know...

52 minutes ago, Plaag said:

marcus is a pretty good master, he dont need to be buffed

Depends... if I get your post right and you want to nerf tier 1 crews really hard then I agree. Marcus doesn’t need a buff. But atm he isn’t designed well. I wish for a rework. Some of his models are strong. Others are lame. That’s boring and bad design. 

19 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

 

Why should a Cerberus become an enforcer? That's quite a big nerf. Also, Wyrd has made two models, so it almost certainly won't happen.

 

+1 ... and he would still be staple

19 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

Adaptive evolution moving to the upgrades is a very popular suggestion. It would be great if it got an extra sentence to say it can't be removed with an obey.

Would also be great if the chimera models that loose adaptive evolution, gain "shed skin" which allows them to discard a mutation to remove any/all conditions.

That feels like a pretty big change to me regarding the amount of cards that need to be changed. Even though I would like your suggestion I find it rather unlikely to happen. 

I still think there are likely possibilities:

1. Marcus himself gets a buff like:

-Primal domain range 10“/12“

2. one or two other tweaks that buff the unspectacular models (SRM, Mole, Hound, Rattler...???)

3. reworking the mutation upgrades 

- maybe more new upgrades

- change plentiful (2)

And a next one:

this time with mature OOK to stomp on enemy models. Also agent 46 and serena to add some punch. Serena healing and misplace in essential situations. 
changelings adding AP swap to buff the mature and agent with lots of focus turn 1. afterwards they add additional actions in melee or go scheming (disguised and stealth are quite good)... 

lawyer adding shielded and potentially obey enemy models. Or serena. 
 

once again: nothing special but solid punch & AP Control & Card draw

Lucius  (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 4
Leader:
  Lucius Mattheson
Totem(s):
  The Scribe
Hires:
  Mature Nephilim
  Agent 46
  Serena Bowman
  Guild Lawyer
  Changeling
  Changeling 2
  Changeling 3
 

28 minutes ago, Adran said:

Cerberus last edition didn't have a mask on its leap, or any way short of cheating to get it, and it was still crazy good, so I don't think the lack of a suit makes it bad, just requires some planning.

I wouldn't be surprised if the loss in popularity was significantly more than the loss in power for archie. But that might just be me. 

If the range for primal domain would be extended a lot and the carddraw would be buffed, I would be totally fine with dropping the build in suit.

35 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

I thought the point of this thread was that Marcus isn't ok as he is - he's way below the curve in Neverborn, and not great in Arcanists...

Yes it is. Still I love the way he works, even though he is under the curve. And that may be the most challenging task. Tweak Marcus but keep the style of play. And I have read several ideas and aspects of Marcus we want to be buffed: 

-independent hunter

-mutation toolbox 

-AP swap

-Card draw

-fast

-flexibel (Easy leaving Engagement)

and so on... 

My wish would be to keep his jack of all trades style... just buff it  but that may exactly be the difficulty as ogrid mentioned before (esp  since he now is dual faction)!!!

2 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

Cerberus loosing onslaught isn't a huge issue - formidable horns gives the same trigger. So, if it helps balance the crew in the wake of a buff, so for it!

I don’t think that’s a solution. To me the Cerberus would be nearly as good as before just because it still leaps. Leap is a very powerful action. 

I just wish to nerf the Cerberus to an even level with SRM, Rougarou (tBW, Groot) so each of them is specialized. This means cutting his leap. and then have a mutation with leap. I think redesigning the Mutations and one or two tweaks here and there  is the easiest way to balance the crew.  And maybe get rid of the „all mutations are plentiful 2“ idea. Why aren’t there once only mutations and plentiful 3 mutations... this would open things up: like one mutation with ruthless, one with leap, 2 with marker removal, 3x shrug off, infect trigger, maybe a spitting ranged attack, intimidating authorities (in a beastly way),1-2x terrifying, etc etc etc. 
 

Soooo many ideas. Soooo many possibilities ... like Lego... creating individual beasts...

EDIT: but maybe that’s too complicated to balance and I have to say: I just love Marcus the way he is!!!

35 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Too many must picks; for a master that is all about versatility, he has very fixed lists if you want good results. Cojo and the saber are the worst offenders.

I would be fine with Cojo being staple. Saber is very lame imo. Without its leap I wouldn’t take it (NVB-Marcus) -so switching Leap to an upgrade would allow Marcus Keyword to be way more flexible. 

EDIT: yes my lists consist of Cojo, Myranda, 1-2 Saber, -100% of all games I played so far ~ 8 (I‘m still new to Marcus) and I wouldn’t drop any of them. 

35 minutes ago, Ogid said:

He cannot adapt; he works so bad with non-beast/chimera models that if the keyword doesn't have an answer for an enemy master, he is in a terrible position. Again ironic taking in count his theme. He needs to be able to support non-beast

I would love to see Marcus being independent from versatiles/ook. With the mutation mechanic it would be possible. Which ook/versatile do you play to counter opponents? Or what abilities does Marcus lack, so you need to take ook/versatile? 

8 hours ago, Thatguy said:

They tipped the hand pretty heavy at the end of 2nd when they came out at 100% confirmed that he was a mimic working against Guild interests from within. I kinda missed when he was more mysterious and it wasn't clear what was behind the mask. 

Which story do you refere to?

10 minutes ago, LexLock said:

Compare them to Arachnid Swarms, Cerberus, Blessed, Lone Swordsman, Samurai, Midnight Stalker, Hanged, Gracie, The Jury, Vasilisa, Widow Weaver, Serena Bowman, Student of Viscera, Yin or Minako. I'm not saying they're below average, they're probably better than most 8ss models! It's just that If you're playing with a competitive mindset, above average doesn't always mean worth hiring.

Totally agree. I would love to see wyrd nerf all of the upper tier models so beautiful models like SVG don't get outshined by them.

I played Kudra and Ox quite often and they work fine in casual games - esp. since sandeep is tough as nails to play against anyhow... and they are fun! 

Since I’m a NVB Lucius player I don’t really know his GUI tricks. I will try him soon like that: 

Lucius Guild Aggression  (Guild)
Size: 50 - Pool: 1
Leader:
  Lucius Mattheson
Totem(s):
  The Scribe
Hires:
  Peacekeeper
  Agent 46
  Alan Reid
  Investigator
  Guild Lawyer
  False Witness
  Changeling
 

with entourage, and stand back... it has to be easy to move the peacekeeper up. Impassioned defense making it harder to damage it and witness handing out adversary to it makes it easier to obey it. Seems like quite some support for the little robot. Alan Reid is simply awesome when used to ask questions and coordinate attacks with him. The agent does what the agent does... simply be an additional threat for the opponent. Investigator should be kept in the back to deny schemes, draw a card and push here and there. 
I will use this list in a scheme pool with lots of Marker schemes like sabotage, spread, lym or if the opponent is invited to come to you... 

Maybe the guild can help. I started a thread in NVB bout the background and dual mastery of Lucius. 
 

does the guild have more intel on him? 
 

Hello 

i need your help, please. I started Malifaux in M3e and I am slowly getting forward listening to the podast. The stories are quite hard to understand since I'm no natural english speaker.  Everything I heared so far about my favourite master is, that he is some govener guys secretary and  well... he is mysterious. There ain't that much intel on him. Even in the NVB-Faction-Book... nothing...

And then again I'm looking at the keyword and cards and ask myself: has he always been dual master (GUI/NVB)? Why are there so few mimics and much more elite? How come he is half NVB? ---is he? Why is there no Klaus Norwood in Malifaux? What does he want/do? What's his attitude towards the other NVB masters? And towards guild masters as well?

Maybe you can help. Who is Lucius Mattheson and how did he become the NVB master he actually is?

On 11/21/2020 at 6:31 PM, Ogid said:

I don't want to discourage you, go ahead and play him; I do and he is super fun and one of my favourite masters. But mind his crew is misleading, his models and upgrades screams "ruthless hunter" but his playstile is closer to Colette/Nelly than to Nekima, at least in this faction; in ARC he can be more agressive. To win with him in NVB you need to abuse his mobility, the condition play and mobility shenanigans that NVB beast has

After a few games with Marcus I totally agree. He has become my second colette - just a NVB one.  I dance through the wilderness (severe) and only attack if I get the kill. Preferably models that have not activated this turn. And use accomplice if necessary. 
on sunday I took out Leveticus 5:1 (ok my opponent didn’t know Marcus at all). It was soooo much fun to score, deny and retreat. 

Ok next one. Same campaign. So no ook! 
this Build would be better fielding a BBS performing his blasphemous rituals giving angel eyes more focus. The false witness handing out adversary to angel eyes so you get obeying her. Agent 46 mimics the gun. 
 

Lucius Eyes  (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 9
Leader:
  Lucius Mattheson
Totem(s):
  The Scribe
Hires:
  Angel Eyes
  Agent 46
  Alan Reid
  Guild Lawyer 2
  False Witness 3
  Changeling
 

I played a lot of games against rasputina in the last months and played puppets most of the time. Collodi once and Hinamatsu like about 6-7 times. It was armor and healing that kept my models alive quite well. High movement was the key to winning. Lure was the answer to his movement or auras. And I usually don’t get too involved fighting. I focus on scoring first.

Oh yeah, Lucius is a hard one. I'm not suited for the "obey your opponent" style, since I cant wrap my head around it in the midst of a game. Therefor I came to use Lucius in different kind of ways. One (obvious) way is the "shift of AP" in which I use the AP of Lucius, Lawyer, Changeling and sometimes Vasilisa or Agent 46 to activate another model - preferably a minion-beater, agent 46, alan reid or angel eyes to stomp someone. Of course coordinated attack can be used this way, too. 

In the following core-list I tend to use Lucius as a "little" devilish puppet master for collodi is DMH. Its a core-list since ther are 19 SS left to adapt to strat and schemes. I used this core in a campaign, in which no OOK models were allowed (so no BBS builds)... it performed well.

Lucius, Scribe, Agent 46, Alan Reid, Vasilisa, 2x Wicked Doll     +19 SS left

This list consists of models that can hit (agent, alan), interrupt (alan, scribe) and move (vasilisa&dolls). If needed, Vasilisa can change this list to a beaty one killing the dolls and summoning stiched together. By increasing the carddraw (add a Changeling/a Lawyer) Vasilisa can summon Stiched very easily (alan can one-hit a staggered doll if needed). Vasilisa can use staggered as well as Alan and the Dolls. Adding a Changeling is also awesome to "just like you" the issue command and let agent 46 occasionaly mimic "just like you" which most oponents dont have in mind and which made me score in several games. 

Yes - I know - this isn't the awesome, astonishing brand new idea no ever had before... It's kind of obvious BUT this list really has potential IF played well- it took me a lot of games to get to know the possibilities and combinations of Lucius and his keyword and another several matches to really understand and play the list above. It's a flexible list - not a "one trick pony" and should be played this way. And furthermore this list plays different depending on how you spend the 19SS...

35 minutes ago, Warharan said:

How does this work? Do you kill you own wicked dolls? (thus creating a scrap marker)

Teddy kills one doll by using his free action and one by charging...