WWHSD

1 hour ago, Sebasthos said:

Or make Serene Countenance a bonus action - force her to choose between her Sabre, Practiced Choreo or this.

That affects a lot of models that aren’t Colette.

1 hour ago, Forgotmytea said:

To be fair, and I say this as a player who uses pretty much just Colette, the damage track on her Sabre Trick is a bit bonkers. 2/3/4/ a lá M2E would be fine, it doesn't need to be higher than that

Unless I missed something, it’s currently the only min 3 attack in the Performer keyword. It’s a bonus action and it’s the only attack she has with damage that the enemy doesn’t choose to take.

I don’t think it’s the min 3 that people have their panties in a bunch over. It the 7 on the severe. I don’t think the damage track needs to drop at all but if it does, it should drop to 3/4/6 or 3/4/5 and not 2/3/4.

1 hour ago, retnab said:

Or since it's really Tara that's the issue give her something like "Behind the Scenes: This model may not be targeted while Buried."

My thought was that preventing the targeting might be too harsh on models that can target buried models. Most of the duels against Colette where the enemy doesn’t have LoS are to her are going to be when she’s buried but it will end up covering a few other things I’m sure.  It seems kind of thematic that the master illusionist would be even hard to hit than normal when you can’t actually see her.

26 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Why is it still to low? She's still handing out negative twists with serene countenance, and can use soul stones defensively and and for damage prevention, in the event that you're facing an opponent that picked a hard counter.

 

I could see dropping the discard. But the damage should probably stay. Even if she were burying twice a turn (which seems difficult, since she only has one way to unbury) It would still take 10 attack actions over 5 turns to kill her, assuming she never gets healed, or uses soul-stones to prevent damage.

 

What do you think are possible alternatives? 

Protected (Showgirl), replacing another defensive ability?

If I had to reduce Colette’s defenses I would replace Serene Countenance with an ability that put enemy models on negative flips in any opposed duels against her if the enemy does not have LoS to Colette.

5 hours ago, Adran said:

You have to remember that the trigger is not unique to Rasputina. And on its current wording could be added to an action that didn't create an ice pillar.  

2 ice pillar markers should have the same rules regardless of their source. So once a card has the rules for Ice pillars on it once, why bother putting them on a second time?

 

 

Those two paragraphs seem to make contradictory points. 

The first seems to be arguing in favor of defining the Ice Pillar in the trigger text. As the trigger could show up on a model that that doesn’t otherwise have the ability to create Ice Pillars.

The second makes it seem like the trigger should only ever be able to show up on a card of a model that defines Ice Pillars elsewhere on it.

2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I think Colette could definitely stand to go down to df 4, both mechanically and thematically.

She survives based on illusion and trickery, not because she's a hardened combat veteran and dodges attacks.

If she went to Df4, I think the discard and the damage on Fade Away would need to go away as well since she will probably be burying twice a turn (unless she activates either very early or very late in the turn) and she’s never going to have any cards in hand if anything that forces Df duels shows up.

2 hours ago, WildRose94 said:

another way you could do this is have TDB give out burning lets say +2 then have a trigger that after resolving lower the burning by an amount lets say 2 for example to give out injured +1. this would reduce the number of hops she would need to jump through and if you didn't get the trigger for the injured you've still applied burning to multiple models.

Putting the Incinerate trigger on TDB as well as Immolate would kind of do the same thing in less kludgey manner. Triggers with the Immediate trigger happen as soon as they are declared, regardless of whether duel succeeds. This would put all nearby models at Burning +2 before resolving the effects of TDB. 

That would also give Kaeris a way to stack burning on her crew as long as she had a card of the right suit or was willing to stone for it.

1 hour ago, Dereikt said:

 That both conditions involved can be removed with a general action, and that it will usually need one action to remove the injured+2 that Kaeris will require a full *3* actions to apply, is enough to push Third Degree Burns firmly into the realms of "so terrible Wyrd may as well not bother printing it". 

TDB is one of the main reasons that I think Kaeris’s crew needs more ways to easily throw out small amounts of burning in an AoE. 

The current version of Assist is going to affect the balance of alot of crews that depend on conditions. There’s been barely any testing done with it.

35 minutes ago, hemgath said:

And the fact immolate auto reduce target's burning considerably change de the efficiency of Kaeris. (just notice this change now)
 

As far as I know, Immolate has always lowered Burning when it was used.

1 hour ago, Jordon said:

Which is why M2E Kaeris worked better because the damage was secondary from burning but burning had so many other useful applications. Burning needs to do more if your going to jump through the hoops in order to use it for damage - or there needs to be more ways to use it 

In my experience with both M2E and M3E Kaeris, M3E Kaeris seemed to be the better of the two.

6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I think both the wings and camouflage could feel safe to drop once a beater is stuck in to guarantee that it gets an onslaught trigger or maybe a positive flip against a model which puts you at a negative. If you need to kill something to score on a strat you might also sacrifice your armour, especially if the model has already made its own activation and gained shielded +2 and you then used Call of the wild to have it charge after that. It's not overpoweringly strong but can probably be pretty clutch for scoring the last points in reckoning or something.

I find it strange that Myranda doesn't have this ability though, she seems like one of very few models who could use it effectively and she is very pricey.

I found that it was really useful on Cojo with his Execute trigger. Use the wings to get into range, drop the wings for the needed suit and a plus flip.

3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

 I wasn't in the closed beta, if the previous wording indicated the miner should dig while on the board then I guess it should stay that way. Just reading the rules I figured the two abilities interacted with each other which made sense to me since it would somewhat limit the amount of soulstones so you didn't get the model for free in a 6 round game. It also made sense to me that the miner emerges from the ground detouring somewhere below to bring the soulstones it dug past and thus being slower when emerging. I don't understand the logic of the miner being unable to bring stones with it while it's digging through the ground (which it presumably does mainly to get at stones buried deep) but it can dig them up when above the surface.

Unless they changed something in the Open Beta rules, all games end at the end of turn 5. 

If the intent was to have the Miner only generate Soulstones when it unburies, I would think that the ability would be better written as a “When this model is unburied ...” effect rather than a “At the start of activation ...” effect.

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

When the beta forums are erased and all we have to go on is the RAW of the abilities and the unbury rules I think this is going to come back and cause issues like so many rules did in m2e. It's pretty frustrating to have the rules written in a way that makes it hard to argue for what you know is right because the rules actually say something else. No one who argued your position against me in this thread seemedwilling to quote the literal part in the rules which makes it clear that my way of reading it is wrong which is going to be a problem after release. I thought the whole point of beta was to catch these kinds of inconsistencies and clarify.

I totally agree about the purpose of the beta. I thought the argument was about how the ability should be getting played for the purpose testing, not whether or not the rules could do with some clarification. I would think that the length of the argument and the number of different interpretations being offered made it clear that the rules need some work.

As I mentioned earlier, the rules need some clarification about how effects that share a timing window are queues up. Are all of the effects that added to a stack at the start of the timing event using the game state at that particular time with no new effects getting added or are effects being resolved one at a time on an ongoing basis throughout the timing event.  

Unburied could also really use a clarification in the rules.

4 hours ago, Ludvig said:

If you need to be on the table to mine soulstones I think it should be worded 
"Mine Soulstone: Before taking any actions, if this model did not start the activation buried it may gain Slow. 
If it does so, add one Soulstone to this
Crew's Soulstone Pool. 

Like I said yesterday the base rulebook seems to reference being buried or being on the table as the two states of a model. A model which hasn't been buried during the game can't be automatically counted as unburied unless the rules specifically call out all non-buried models as being considered unburied somewhere.

I think you’re wrong based on the previous timing for the unbury mechanic. It would have been impossible to unbury and mine during the same activation. I’m about 99% positive that  “unburied” is being used to mean not “not buried” and not “has unburied during this activation”.

51 minutes ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

Out of curiosity, are Kaeris' pyre markers the same as Reva's pyre markers?  Can a Lampad eat them?

Yeah, they are the same markers. Does the Lampad’s ability specificy “friendly pyre marker”?

I don’t see the problem with this. The replacement rules are working as intended. It’s not getting any additional activations over the replacement scenarios that you don’t have a problem with. 

25 minutes ago, solkan said:

🤮

I'm wracking my brain trying to remember if there's any justification for this sentence "In step 7, if one of the original models was Replaced during its Activation, the new model continues that model’s Activation." to not say

or something on the Coryphee to prevent this happening.

Reactivate is dead.  This should be too.

I think that would kind of screw over the Steam Arachnids and Desolation Engines.

If replace gets changed to stop the Coryphee Duet from working the way that it does, the Duet will need some buffs or a cost reduction.

To add to what has been said already:

Most of her defensive tricks only work against enemy models. If you can obey her  crew to attack her her she can’t bury and they don’t suffer the negativd flip from Serence Countenance.

She needs cards to bury. If you can put pressure on her hand then you create a situation that she needs to decide whether to use her cards or hang on to one to bury.

Don’t pick schemes that require you to place scheme markers away from where you want your models to be. 

2 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

Actually I might take the Duet and 2 Coryphee

That sounds like an expensive and horrible idea. Because of the limit of two Coryphee in a crew, hiring any Coryphee with a Duet keeps your Duet from splitting until all other Coryphee have been killed.

As often as possible the Duet wants to use its two actions, then spilt into a pair of Coryphee. When the unactivated Coryphee gets activated the pair of Coryphee combine so that the resulting Duet can take two more actions. This also has a side effect of healing the Coryphee Duet a bit and the replace effects generate a decent amount of movement themselves. Without pulling these schemanigan’s I don’t think that the Coryphee Duet is worth 12SS.

You want to hire a Duet instead of two Coryphee and end the turn as a Duet whenever possible to deny your opponent the a pass token (or too gain an extra pass token for yourself). 

4 minutes ago, Jordon said:

That sounds more like an issue of how tournaments are/should be run. The rules are the way they are for a reason and if TO's want to run fixed master then they are introducing mechanics the game wasn't designed for and thus you'll have those scenarios. The bright side is that everyone will suffer equally so while it might be such for the Sonnia Vs Kaeris matchup, I'm sure there are a dozen other examples of such imbalances. 

Agreed, Malifaux isn’t meant for Fixed Master tournaments.

I think Mason had said something like “tournament rules should be written around the game rules and not the other way around”. If you buy into that philosophy, breaking single master tournament formats isn’t anything to lose sleep over.

Just now, Jordon said:

That may be true, but it's still giving a broad degree of control to the opponent. Maybe not everyone will be able to pat away that burning but if your trying to single out a key important model, then the opponent has a way to easily mitigate that. I feel like other damage based crews don't suffer in that regard. Crit strike for example has no such downside, it just happens immediately with no extra hoops to jump through.  

 

I think the issue was how burning got iterated on over and over during the CB and Kaeris was constantly trying to play catchup. Most of her current abilities were turned when burning acted differently and she just hasn't received the amount of testing needed. 

I feel like everyone needs to be happy with how burning/assist/pyre markers works before we can delve into tuning Kaeris because she's completely and utterly dependant on burning and since she doesn't really do anything else, she suffers a lot from even minor rules adjustments. 

I actually think that Burning at the end of CB was as powerful for Kaeris as it ever was.

- Assist (even before it got a name) always got rid of 1/2/3 burning.

- Assist can no longer remove Burning from enemy models.

- Damage from the Burning condition no longer deals a fixed single point of damage at the end of the turn. High amounts of Burning can result in higher damage.

- Burning on enemies increase at the end of the turn if Kaeris is the Leader.

I agree that balancing Kaeris is tough if the rules for Burning and Pyre’s aren’t settled.

Now that Pyre markers don’t do damage, at least some of the abilities that currently create them should probably place them instead (especially the demise actions). 

I think that ideally you want to try to make sure that fights happen in Pyre markers as much as possible. 

I don’t really see that Conflagaration and Up We Go are redundant. They both give Kaeris the opportunity to reposition enemies but can be used in different situations. 

One of Kaeris’s biggest problems is going to be against models that are immune to damage from Burning since her Incinerate inflicts Burning damage.

I do think she still suffers a little bit from being too similar to Sonia in some respects but not as good at dealing damage as Sonia is. 

The Fire Golem’s defensive abilities have gone through wave after wave of nerfs. I suspect that now it may have been hit too hard.

Burning can be removed with Assist, but most crews don’t have a ton of actions to spare removing burning. If they are removing Burning they aren’t doing other things that they need to do to remove your models or score VP.

I think that one thing that would help Kaeris’s crew is having a way to spread low amounts of burning easily. 

3 hours ago, Jordon said:

I'd agree with that but I think that is a separate issue. I don't actually like Bana's ability to spam pyre markers. Not only does it just give the big middle finger to Kaeris but pyre markers are just a bit more awkward to work around in a Sandeep crew unless your going full on fire centric. 

Personally I'd like to see Banasuva pushed as more of a "lord of elements/gamin" than simply a lesser fire golem. 

The Pyre markers are nice, but it’s the extra action each turn that Banasuva gives the Fire Golem that I think makes him worth hiring. By tossing two models up and commanding the Fire Golem to walk up during the first turn, Banasuva helps extend the threat range of your crew by quite a bit.

On 1/19/2019 at 7:33 AM, Jordon said:

 If he wasn't free I doubt I'd ever hire him. He certainly seems to lack to table presence that he emitted in M2E as an ancient demon god thing.

I think you are going to see people paying the out of keyword tax to hire both Banasuva and Sandeep in Kaeris crews.

24 minutes ago, kaintxu said:

That why I have doubt. If it was the same it should say another which makes it clear is the same. Since it says a ice Pilar marker, is the same as if it said corpse marker, no characteristics and can be used only by specific action without further effect in the game.

i do think it needs clarification as it’s very different one to another. 

I think there are a few instances of a type of marker being referred to just by name after having it’s attributes defined within the same action or on the same card.