WWHSD

Just now, kaintxu said:

I don’t want him to interact more than once in a turn, but yes pop up an interact which he can’t as it stands. If he buries he can’t interqxt until turn 3 and won’t be able to interact far away for anything usefull. 

I rather he had the old 6” away from enemy and be a ken to interact as normal, 

He wasn't able to Interact on the turn he unburied previously, so that wasn't really a change. What was hurt by having his Interacts changed to bonus actions is that he can't Interact and bury in the same turn now.

Needing to unbury 6" away from an enemy and the enemy deployment zone put the miner in situation where he could be locked out of unburying anywhere useful if your opponent wanted to do so.  

Just now, kaintxu said:

How do you use him?

Mostly as a harassment piece and as something that can interact on the far side of the table. He's less limited in where he can unbury, so it makes it really hard to keep him away from the models you don't want him attacking and tying up. Being able to interact more than once in a turn isn't usually that important so having the Interact changed to a bonus action kind of helps him. 

3 minutes ago, cbtb11235813 said:

Soulstone miner seems to be edging closer and closer to useless with every update
 

I think Soulstone Miner is still great (for how I typically used him). It will hurt losing that first round soulstone though. That made Diesel Engine only cost 1SS in my mind.

I think the changes went a bit overboard but with some adjustments elsewhere on her card to compensate for the nerfs she might turn out okay.  She's a master that really needs to expose herself to enemies but is now very vulnerable playing into a crew that knows to expect her.

A model like Joss (ignores reduction, and has an attack that deal Stun) is going to be able to tear Colette up with a quickness. 

Zoraida was already a strong matchup against Colette but at this point I don't see myself playing Colette into either Neverborn or Bayou unless I hire her as a second master. 

Levi is also going to cause her a huge amount of trouble as his attack is against Wp, deals irreducible damage, and can stop triggers. 

 

Foundry in General: The change to Hazardous terrain is potentially a huge buff to this crew allowing them to immediately deal damage with Vent Steam without waiting for enemy models to activate in the aura.

Colette: Major nerf to Colette. The upside is that she no longer needs to discard a card to bury. Crews with a lot of attacks against Wp are going to be extremely effective against her since she'll need to stone or be able to cheat in a tome to bury. Without the built in crow in Distracting Illusions, it's hard to see Colette being able to force enough discard to ever do damage with this ability. With the reduced range to Showstopper, there will be a lot less Distracted on the table to help protect her crew.

Carlos: I'm not sure why he had his Df lowered. I found him to be kind of squishy in the games that I played him in.

Showgirl: The buff to Lure is nice. For as fragile as they are it was disappointing to have such a hard time landing the Lure.

Angelica: Change to the trigger isn't going to make a difference in a lot of circumstances but potentially makes the trigger less of an NPE in the extreme corner cases.

Kaeris - She had her Mv of 6 reduced after Flight became a place effect. Like all of the other 30mm models with Flight, she has just lost over an inch of movement which really hurts her mobility. Fan the Flames got a double buff, becoming easier to use and now inflicting Burning and potentially Injured (depending on range) to every model that comes into contact with the marker (regardless of whether or not they pass the simple duel). I think the order of operations on Fan of Flames needs might end up being kind of confusing, the Burning and the Injured conditions won't be given to models in the marker's path until after all of the other effects of Fan of Flames have been resolved.

Soulstone Miner: The clarification now makes the Miner actually be able to unbury itself. Mining Soulstone now gives the Miner the Stunned condition, this is a huge turn 1 nerf to the miner as it can no longer mine and bury in the same turn.  A miner that buries turn one won't be able to generate a Soulstone until turn 3 at the earliest. Using the trigger on his bury effect now causes the miner to take a point of damage (the Injured is irrelevant since it goes away at the end of his activation and he won't be taking any actions while buried).

Arcane Emissary: A three inch reduction in his threat range is pretty significant. 

Gunsmith: This seems like it is just a clarification in most cases, the Gunsmith does lose the ability to add suits on duels that do not come from one of its actions.

The Captain: A bit of a nerf in that he can no longer protect two different models that are not close to each other.

Fire Golem: Dancing in the Flames is a nice buff. If he uses Draw off Flames while standing in a Pyre Marker he can move that marker with him. Placing that marker will give whatever he just moved next to Injured as long as they are close enough to Kaeris.  It looks like I didn't read Dancing in the Flames close enough.
 

7 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

I really debated posting this but I wouldn't forgive myself if this happened again and I didn't say something.  All firmly IMHO...

I worry we're in danger of making a mistake I've seen us make before.  We focused very heavily on Colette in M2e beta testing and we let some really broken stuff through (e.g. Mech Rider) and some other things ended up severely under cooked (e.g. Toni & Kaeris.)

Approaching the third week of the test and 40% of the posts in this part of the forum are in threads about the Colette crew, and 10% are about the Soulstone Miner.  Now it could be the Arcanists are in such a good space those are the right things to be focusing on, but I can't believe there aren't some other things that are over/under powered we need to look at.  We've got eight masters to balance after all.

I'm not saying don't talk about Colette, I'm saying that we should talk about other things as well.  So I'm going to ask this;  what're you worried about that isn't a Performer (and why)?

For me it's Kaeris looking ironically under cooked again.  How about you?

It seems like most of what is being focused on in the Arcanist forums are the results of complaints by players from other factions.

Were all of Colette's Doves dead by the time she got Injured? The Doves seem like they've be great for removing Conditions with Assist. 

Did either Hoffman or Joss have any luck stunning Colette with their trigger when attacking one of her crew?

I see a lot of mentions of how much of an effect the Distracted condition had on the game but I don't see any mention of the Assist action being used to clear it.  Is that something that you used but didn't find effective? 

Angelica's resist trigger isn't built in and it requires her to have LoS to the scheme marker that she is sending the enemy model to. If she's got LoS to a scheme marker that is mode than half of the table away, you may need more terrain. If the ability removed the scheme marker the model was placed in contact with, I think that would make it an even more powerful ability since it would allow remote enemy scheme marker removal. The model that gets placed in base contact with the scheme marker can interact to remove it if they wanted to. 

It's odd that you mentioned Carlos being too crazy with Butterfly Jump. Outside of Df 6 (and soulstone redution), he doesn't have much else going on defensively. I've found that Butterfly Jump either gets blocked off, makes Carlos move away from where he needs to be, or doesn't get him out of range of follow-up attacks.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

 

I don`t see why she couldn`t use it on herself.

She can now. In the closed beta it wasn't "within range" it was "within 8 of this model". The change in the wording now allows Colette to move herself, which is a big buff that she received in the transition to Open Beta.

12-19 version:
"Place a Scheme Marker in base contact with the target. Place the target into base contact with a friendly model within 8 of this model, then place the friendly model in base contact with the Scheme Marker placed by this Action."

3 minutes ago, Jwinks said:

A simple question.  Is there any way to summon new doves through Arcanists?  I didn't see any actions in the Performers cards and I may have overlooked another possibility.  Thank you.

 

Nope. There is no way to summon Doves currently.

1 hour ago, Michael Curran said:

Presto Chango is the main act, of her parlor tricks.......

The last time I played Colette, Presto Chango only let her swap the target of the attack with "other friendly model". That meant that she had no way to move herself with any of her abilities. The change to Presto Chango was a huge buff that she got coming into the Open Beta that I seem to keep forgetting about.

3 hours ago, hemgath said:

Just take care of presto-chango in this case

I keep forgetting that Open Beta changed Presto-Chango to allow her to place herself. The version from Closed Beta didn't.  

 

4 hours ago, hemgath said:

I think it s really the good way for colette... no burry and a real spirit of performer style... i think you can use a performer not only construct... for a kind of magic and showruning

And all the rest of this proposal seem terribly good thinking and balanced !

My thought in limiting it to just Performer Minion Constructs is that fluffwise they sort of exist to take hits for Colette and her girls as well to cut down on the number of models on the board that Colette would be able to swap with to make it a little easier to control and predict where she might go. 

5 minutes ago, Sebasthos said:

 

-Change her self Bury trigger on Sword Trick to one that summons a Dove into base contact with the target before burying the target (maybe only if there are no Doves or just one Dove currently in play.

In combination with the swap, that would be workable, too.

 

In case it wasn't clear, that list of stuff I posted was meant to all taken together and not a number of separate suggestions. 

I don't like it being a trigger and I don't like it only being built in on Defense. I really do think that it is Serene Countenance that pushed her defenses over the top and is what needs to be looked at.


 

If people really do think that it is a problem with Fade Away then the mechanic should be changed to something that gives multiple ways to counter play it (and not just counter pick it) and makes Colette less of a pain to remove when hired as a second master. 

- Exchange Fade Away for an ability that allows her to swap places with a friendly Performer Construct Minion within 12 inches (Doves, Mannequins, and Coryphee). The attack fails like it does with Fade Away..
- Change her aura that hands out distracted to trigger when Colette is placed instead of when she unburies. 
- Get rid of her ability to unbury at the start of her activation.
- Give Doves the Mindless ability from the Mindless Zombie card.
-Change her self Bury trigger on Sword Trick to one that summons a Dove into base contact with the target before burying the target (maybe only if there are no Doves or just one Dove currently in play.
 

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Make her have to be in range of another showgirl and when she vanishes the other showgirl takes her place and takes the full effects of the hit, basically a better version of protect.

Just to clarify, by "showgirl" you mean Colette's keyword  "performer" right, and not just the Showgirl models?

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Firslty, whatever people argue the costs for using it are too low. A card and a wound are trivial, especially since Colette gets a benefit for burying as well since she gets to pop out almost wherever she wants to set up, and gets irresistable distracts on top of it. Really think about what the costs would be for anyone else to have that ability. You get to move boardwide to a setup position, and you get to pulse unresistable distracted for any card you want and a wound. That would never fly, on top of a model with the triggers and attacks she does.

Colette doesn't want to be buried. She wants to be on the table. When she's buried she stops being on the board engaging models and being able to stun models when they activate. 

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

First don’t make her abilities a trap and a GOTCHA for new players who don’t know they can’t actually effectively target her, and in fact doing so only makes her better. Design her from the outset with abilities like: This model may not be the target of attack actions.

As far as gotchas go, this one is pretty straight forward and obvious. If you've played against Colette once, read her card, or heard anyone talk about Colette then it won't be a gotcha.  

3 hours ago, Slartibartfarst said:

Yea, after looking at 'em again, I think the pricing seems okay. I just can't understand why the leap is valued so much higher than, say armor 2. But that's just me.

It's because Leap scores points.  

On 1/26/2019 at 9:46 AM, Caspergad said:

I disagree. 

 

The following is not directed at you Michael Curran  but to all here argueing Colette is in the right place or even nerfed into the ground right now...

lets just look a masters that have comparable-ish defensive tech, and where you can argue that they, in a wide sense, try and fill the same role as close-ish disruption master:

Molly: def: 5, wp 6, health 10, def tech: Serene Countenance, Hard to wound (and kinda Lethes caress, since doubletapping might deter a very wounded opponent)

Jack Daw: def: 5, wp: 7, health: 6, def tech: discard a card and change damage to one (so the attack still goes through with any/all conditions, blast, triggers and so on along with it), terror 11 and heal 1 instead of drawing a card when the crew can (if wanted)

Collodi: def: 5, wp: 5, health 10, def tech: armor 2 and protected (puppet) (so attack still goes through, and something else will die, it has a short range and it must be a puppet)

Colette: def 4, wp: 6, health 10, def tech: serence countenance, make any attack action fail at the cost of a card and 1 damage (so no conditions, blast or anything can bounce of this, and complete disregard of for example Levi's irreducable dam) and she buries with massive flexibility to the unbury along with a pulse 4 distract that cannot be resisted.

 

Now please tell me that you think Colettes defensive tech isn't off the charts!? Even if she only had her bury, she would still have more health and better damage reduction compared to Jack Daw, and he has only 6 health due to a really good damage reducing ability (which is like way worse than Colettes)! Compared to Molly, I'll bet you can't find a single resser player that wouldn't sacrifice 1 single defense stat for getting that bury on top of serene countenance (and thats after nerf)? Serene countenance is sooo good, so anything on top of that!? yikes... I thought Molly had it alright with serene and hard to wound... and yes, in this case I think you can actually fairly compare to other masters, as I think Colette is her own entire level, so as others have said, either Colette is way over the top or like 90 % of the other masters need a buff to compete...

 

So if this meant that Colette herself wasn't a factor but just tanky and mobile (so a costly but good scheme runner), well maybe that'd work, but she has acces to both very debilitating conditions and her one damaging attack is one single damage (in every bracket) less than Seamus gun (which is also once per turn)... a massively feared weapon that as we speak still gives Seamus players headaches as it costs him so much in balancing the rest of his card. 

 

If Colettes crew is really bad (and I do not think it is. I think it is crazy good, as it has probably one of the most game winning abilities in malifaux in "don't mind me"), and couldn't deal damage (which they can and lots of it) then it STILL wouldn't be a factor in balancing Colette herself... so please do tell which models underperform, and then utilize the fact that this is a beta to get it changed...  

 

Which of those other masters that you listed off need to be in the middle of multiple enemy models to really be effective?  Colette is a melee control master. She can’t hang back behind her crew and do her thing. 

2 hours ago, Caspergad said:

Like, make the bury a trigger (so you can actually counter it with stunned), and so it's after resolving she bury and needing a suit ...

Part of Colette’s problem in M2E was that keeping her alive depended on a trigger and on being able to reduce damage. As the more and more models came out, there were enough things that ignored triggers or dealt irreducible damage that those defenses weren’t worth very much.

5 minutes ago, Hollingydale said:

"May take non-close attack actions" would do it. Ice Pillars at 21" and healing at 16" was a little ridiculous anyway 😂

 

That’s obvious, and not what I was asking. That stops the Healing and Ice Pillars from working. That change to Ice Pillars is a massive nerf to Rasputina and Silent Ones and indirectly  December crews as a whole.

I don’t see a problem with being able to draw range and LoS for Interacts, Assists, and the Feast action through the pillar. None of that seems game breaking to me. 

3 hours ago, retnab said:

Honestly I kind of feel like it should be 2/4/5 even (to match the other Performers' bladed weapons), I get that it's her only "reliable" damage source but she's also a control master and the control elements of the ability really should be the point of it.

It’s also the only min 3 attack in the entire Performer keyword.

52 minutes ago, Hollingydale said:

Good catch! I doubt this is intended. Especially the interacting

 

Did you submit a feedback report of it?

I’m not sure how you could change Ice Mirror that would prevent Interact, Assist, and the Feast ability from working while still allowing Ice Pillar creation and Healing to happen through the Ice Pillar.