WWHSD

37 minutes ago, Sebasthos said:

I would love for it to be "once per dove and turn" but I actually am not sure and tend to understand it as "once per Colette's activation".

It's neither. 

In a given activation it can be used once regardless if it is Colette's activation (I'm not 100% sure how multiple Doves in range affect this). Colette could use a Dove to stone for damage reduction during one model's activation, stone for a tome to bury herself when targeted by an attack that targets Wp during a second model's activation, and then stone for a suit on Presto Chango during her own activation.  

11 minutes ago, WildRose94 said:

Closed beta might of been a different story, I've only seen it since the open beta. If it's the case that it was nerfed continueously they've taken it too far. 

Far comparison it has fake armour 2 that relies on burning which you have to reduce and can be cleared so it's defenses are worse than the ice and meta who have straight armour 2. It's damage track is also worse than the other two as it's paying what I like to call the burning tax. And it's trigger are also mediocre.

overal I just find it a bit lacking at the moment.

It was mostly nerfs to his durability. He didn't do the most damage but he wasn't really even worth trying to kill. There was no limit to the amount of damage that could be reduced via burning (still min 1) and his place effect had no limit to the amount of burning he could get (though it only reduced the target's burning by 3). It was trivial to have him at Burning +10 in the first turn.

He was fast and mobile, his Shockwave gave him some reach, and a 3/4/5 damage track was solid. His durability could get a little crazy but I think they over corrected on his damage reduction ability. 

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems like Terrifying in a crew full of models with Scarlet Temptation can be pretty strong. Dead Dandies and Doxies seems like they should be able to pass Distracted out fairly easily. She should regularly be in a position to take 3 or 4 attacks in a turn.

Having to unbury in base contact with a corpse marker seems rough, especially if she gets targeted early in the game. Would it be too much to have her place a corpse marker in base contact with herself before burying?  It might be cool to see her get Trample so that she can use the Disguised Redchapel minions to block off charge lanes to her but be able to charge through them herself. 

12 hours ago, WildRose94 said:

I've been hearing a very different story with people saying its the weakest of the golems. if that's are strongest model in wildfire then wildfire has a lot more problems than I thought.

That’s funny to hear because the Fire Golem was getting nerfed week after week diring the closedbeta and everyone was talking about how worthless the Metal Golem was until it got some love there at the end.

The Golem was still pretty solid the last time I played it but Elijah should give him a run for the money when it comes to who’s the strongest model in the keyword.

12 hours ago, WildRose94 said:

isn't this what a lot of masters have? unless your a focused scheme marker master like Colette most of them just have the basic interact action.

Her crew might be just average at putting down schem markers but with Iggy and Kaeris Wildfire has some pretty strong anti-scheme marker game. 

38 minutes ago, susannymn said:

I think the way to think of it is: It's not Colette doing it, it's not Colette's rule, the text is not on her card. It's the Doves. So, each of the 3 Doves get to do that once. Possibly per activation of any model, possibly per turn. That's the unclear part.

I think it's clear that the ability can be used more than once per turn. Once per activation abilities get called out in the rules already. It looks like this should be treated as an aura ability, that affects Colette so she has to pick one of the auras to use (because they have the same name) if there are multiple models with the ability that have Colette in the aura. What I think isn't clear is whether the "Once per activation" applies to all auras with the same name, or if  the aura on each model is counted separately.  

It almost seems like this would be a more straight forward ability to have on Colette's card than on the Doves. Unfortunately, she's already short of space on the front of her card.

37 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

Surely it works the same way as Guild Investigators - it is "per activation", not "per this model's activation".

Having said that, given how much confusion there was over Guild Investigators when they released in M2E I'm surprised clearer wording wasn't used this go round.

It's clear that during each activation Colette will be able to use the aura from Doves at least once. 

What's unlear is whether during any given activation can she use each of the aura's once, or can she only use a single aura during each activation. I could probably dig through the rules, and read through the cards a few times and be fairly confident that I'm playing it right but I think that as its written now it will lead to confusion and need a FAQ entry to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

1 hour ago, susannymn said:

Re: 2/7 Hotfix

...OK, not to encourage anything and I think the Doves were fine before, but shouldn't Smuggle Soulstone be 'Once Per Turn' instead of 'Activation', since the thing is technically happening outside of the Doves Activation? I mean, the intent is to make Colette draw from a different Dove each time, right? So 'Turn' would make that clearer?

Colette can also spend Soulstone’s during the activations of models that target her with attacks or any time that she would take damage.

It’s a little unclear if the Once Per Activation is a limit on Colette or a limit per Dove. 

22 hours ago, Boomstick said:

Agreed on Hoarcats, in addition, their multiple ways of healing seem counter intuitive since it's based on killing, which based on their damage track, they won't be doing much of. Tundra Hunter helps with that a little, though I still think it needs to change to within 2" of an ice pillars or friendly Beast and/or Chimera, so the Hoarcats can help Marcus out as well (they're currently the only non-Chimera Beast he has access to that gets worse in his crew because their effectiveness is tied tightly to ice pillars through that ability). More of a Chimera crew thing, but it's a tweak that model could use, and that's really the only model in December I think isn't in a great place.

It would be nice to maybe see the Hoarcat get something that made it do extra damage against models that are at half health or below. That would kind of fit with Grim Feast and Swallow you whole and Manipulative. You hold them off until later in the turn and then activate them to take down a model that your other models didn't finish off.

I'm interested to see how Myranda and the Order Initiate's increased dependence on Marcus to give them upgrades is going to play out. It's definitely a big nerf to those models when hired by anyone other than Marcus and to Myranda as a crew leader. 

I'd like to see them change Aspects of the Wild to be a combination of the old version and the current version by removing the cost for the ability and changing the text to something like "This model must discard an attached Mutation upgrade if able. Attach a Mutation Updgrade to this model".  

**Edit: I hadn't seen the update this morning. It looks like Wyrd had already changed this ability. That makes the change to this ability a straight up buff that enables these models to have more than one upgrade and still use the ability and lessens the pressure on Marcus's hand since they no longer need a 6+ to switch out the upgrade.

1 hour ago, nomadicXnightmare said:

Not sure under which update it happened (might have been during Closed Beta), but Chimerancy used to not be limited to Beasts/Chimera and the Mutations used to bestow the Chimera keyword to models who gained them. If I remember correctly a lot of folks didn't understand why that bonus was even included on the Mutations and complained about "needless" text, so maybe that was why it was removed? However, thinking about it now, I believe this was the the original intent of the inclusion - to add some synergy with non-keyworded/versatile models by giving them Mutation upgrades. Perhaps this is a tragic case of playtesters not seeing the big picture? Or maybe it was deemed too good by the designers for models like Mech Rider and such to have access to Mutations (which would certainly support the restriction added to Chimerancy)?

Anyway, I don't see it as a huge issue and to change how the mechanic works now would require a lot of additional playtesting. However, what might be cool, and require less playtesting, is introduce a Mutation that has more support type abilities, one of which could be a tactical action that gave a model the Chimera keyword until the end of the turn. Something akin to Marcus' old Feral ability perhaps? Maybe not as a bonus action - that might be a bit too good - but it might address the synergy concerns you're talking about.

Chimerenancy was limited to only being used on Beasts and Chimera models since the start of the open beta. The Marcus card that was previewed at GenCon also was restricted to just Living Beats and Chimera models. Removing the ability that granted the Chimera keyword from the Mutation Upgrades is a nerf to Marcus's crew that got slipped in during the transition to to Open Beta. There are a few abilities in the crew that only affect models with the Chimera keyword (like Myranda's + flip to Defenses) that Beasts with Mutations can no longer benefit from. 

 

I think that not having the suit built in for the trigger and having a relatively low attack stat of 5 balances the potential of the Long Carbine attack. Scent of Blood requiring a discard, requiring Crocket to do damage first, and having a - flip to damage keeps that from getting out of hand. 

He’s a solid model and I found he was an excellent model to work on the flank dealing with scheme runners (the Flying nerf really hurts the way I played him though). I think he really Marcus needs some cheap, mobile, Beasts (like M2E Guild Hounds or Canine Remains) to support Crocket on the flank and help take advantage of the out of activation attacks. Hoarcats are okay, but theycare expensive for their poor damage track. Molemen don’t seem to cut it with him either. The Blessed is a little expensive but makes a good partner for him holding down a flank.

He definitely has more damage potential supporting Marcus’s more expensive Beasts, but I usually found that most of my models wanted to stay kind of close to Marcus.

32 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Loving these changes. Very thematic and fun. Doves actually feel like their going to be pulling their weight now, instead of just giving cheap pass tokens to my opponent. 

The one thing that still bugs me about the Doves is the combination of Puny and Annoying. Unless you are parking the Dove next to something that wants to stand still and take tactical actions, it’s pointless. Even if you do find a model that wants to stand still and take tactical actions, it may not even care that it has a fat stack of Distracted.

5 hours ago, retnab said:

So chiming in a little here to get the ball rolling, I see a few things I think could afford to be changed.

The SVG is in a pretty good place, but Chakram is just such an awful attack, I can't imagine ever wanting to use it. Wild Shot being one of the worst "do more damage" triggers really doesn't improve my opinion of it either.

I think the Wind Gamin would be in a much better spot for the crew if we nerfed it down a touch and made it a 5ss model instead. Partly this is due to Sandeep being unable to summon in multiples of these unlike every other summon he has, and also if it's 6ss and the theoretical future Wind Gamin is 10ss either they can't be hugely different in power or one of them is going to feel OP/UP.

Lastly, I've been calling for this for ages and I'm going to try for it again lol, the EoP should be Versatile. Not only that, but I think it should go up 1ss and gain Arcane Reservoir. The part that's sure to get peoples hackles up is I think that Magical Training should once again lose AR, and I know we had so much fun talking about it when it was removed last time

The Wind Gamin did get nerfed down a bit with the change to Flight. I don’t know how much more nerfing it would take to make it a 5SS model.

The EoP does something cool and unique. It seems like it’s worth paying the extra SS sometimes for other crews as it is. If it became Versatile and gained Arcane Reservior it becomes a much better model for most Arcanist crews at no increase in cost. Cheap Arcane Reservoir ends up turning into a required take because everything ends up needing to be balanced around all Arcanist crews having a 7 card hand. I was against having it on Magical Training and I’m against putting it on a cheap model, especially if it means that model ends up costing the Master with its keyword more to put on the table. A Sandeep crew that was taking Magical Training on a minion and the EoP would essentially be losing a SS for no gain (I guess the extra card is more tolerant to models being killed).

1 minute ago, cbtb11235813 said:

Unless it changed and I'm unaware, you can only stone for one suit. You still need either a tome or mask in hand

 

I’ve never been a postion where I’ve wanted to stone for more than one suit at time so didn’t really think about it.

34 minutes ago, retnab said:

There seems to be some confusion here, so here's what I mean by the loop:

Colette activates with a Dove nearby.  She takes an action, spending a "stone" (Dove takes 1).  She then Presto-Chango's herself, spending a "stone" (Dove takes 1 and dies) and using a moderate Tome or mask for Trick of the Hat trigger, summoning a new Dove and placing herself b2b with it. She takes an action, spending a "stone" (Dove takes 1).

As long as every other action is her Presto-Chango'ing herself with a moderate Tome or Mask for the trigger, she can guarantee she will have 2 ss to spend (and Presto-Chango is really good, she's not exactly giving much up in having to use it). Like I said before, I don't know if it's enough of an issue that it needs fixing, but the beta is 100% the time to find out if gimmicks like that are something we want in the final rules or not.

I don’t know if that’s a problem, she’s giving her opponent a pass token everytime she does it and if she’s killing unactivated Doves, it’s actually putting her opponent in a position that they can out activated her with the tokens.

21 minutes ago, retnab said:

 And Colette now has access to her own personal Soulstones so it's not like she can't burn a few for some summoning

I’m picturing Colette using a nearby Dove to add a tome and a mask to Presto Chango and drawing a card from the Dove’s demise ability on a regular basis.

5 minutes ago, Jinn said:

I honestly wasn't liking the Mech Rider at 10SS and I'm definitely not going anywhere near it at 11SS.

I wasn't crazy about her either (too squishy, and needs a ranged attack) but some people really loved her at 10SS. I chalked it up to play style differences.

Colette - The buff to showstopper was nice. The trigger that was added wasn't "*Poof* Doves" it was "Trick of the Hat". Being able to summon more Doves is great but it looks like you'll need to spend a Soulstone to do it since the trigger is on a tome and Presto Chango requires a mask. 

Mechanical Dove - Getting evasive and the ability for Colette to get Soulstones out of them makes them easily worth your opponent getting a pass token. 

Carlos - It's good to see him get his Df back. Fireproof fixes a big issue that a lot of folks had with him but I think it is at odds with Playing with Fire.

Kaeris: Getting a speed bump to make up for the Flight nerf is nice. Run and Gun is a great ability for her (she can charge into a Pyre and use the resulting Burning for a + flip on the attack). and Blaze of Glory closes a big hole for her where she was very vulnerable to being pushed into her own Pyres. The new trigger on "Up We Go" really adds to her putting people into Pyres game.  Losing Immolate and the trigger on Conflagration that allows her to take an additional action seems like it will drop her damage output. The builtin Smolder trigger should offset it some against targets and the trigger that removes all non-Pyre markers seems like it can be really powerful in some games. I'll miss the Ignition trigger as a way that Kaeris can spread burning. The one thing that seems odd with these changes is that Kaeris's crew has tools to stack up some burning but nothing on Kaeris's card takes advantage of enemies having more than Burning +1.

Firestarter: The increase in move gets him moving like he was before the Flight nerf. Light Under Their Feet gets a little extra distance on Burning targets and can now push targets with no Burning 2". It's nice to be able to push a model without needing to setup for it first.

Marcus - Marcus loses his last name (YAY!) and gets an ability that will help with his card draw.

Jackalope - It’s a nice way to split the difference between being able to never be able to kill the Jackalope and having him removed easily if he protects Marcus.

Myranda and Order Initiates - In most games, this change is a nerf to Marcus's crew.  Previously, Myranda and the Order Initiate could give themselves a mutation upgrade if they didn't have one. Now the only way for them to get an upgrade if they don't have one is for Marcus to give them one. At least the Order Initiate starts the game with an upgrade unlike Myranda. The Initiates will also probably feel the loss of their push trigger. I guess it's nice that this ability no longer requires a flip, that's a little less pressure on Marcus's hand.

Blessed of December: Blessed was a great hire for Marcus and Rasputina losing a point of health shouldn't change that.

Scorpius - Since Arcanists lost Rafkin, Perverse Metabolism was kind of useless in most games. Adaptive Evolution makes it fit into Marcus's crew a bit better.  Lowering the card needed for Creep along should make it more likely to be able to top deck it, which should help a tiny bit with hand pressure issues with Marcus.

Saboteur: Having the Machina keyword really wasn't doing anything for him. 

Ironsides: Getting more Adrenaline for Tony is a good thing.

 Ramos - Only needing one scrap token per summon action instead of summoned model is a fantastic buff. 

Mechanical Rider: A 1 point cost increase on a 10 point model isn't likely to make anyone that wanted to hire her to decide not to.





 

3 hours ago, Sebasthos said:

I like that, it fits thematically and is not overpowered. I also had the idea of giving her doves the ability: "While this model is within 2" of a friendly Colette, she may add a single suit of her choice to any duel". Would reduce her resource consumption and give her doves a small push.

It would also make Colette very vulnerable to blasts. I usually keep the Doves and their lows stats far away from Colette.

An 18 inch lure with a high attack stat was ridiculous in M2E. The stat was high enough that most models couldn’t cheat their way out of it and the range was long enough that the Belle never had to get close enough to your crew that you could go after them. 

When playing into a crew with Rotten Belles you just had to accept that at least one of your models was going to be standing in the middle of the opponent’s crew with nothing much you could do about it.

On 2/2/2019 at 4:19 AM, katadder said:

Also what comes first terrifying or the discard?

The terrifying duel needs to be passed before Bette needs to decide whether or not she’s going to bury.

When I’ve played against her I only attacked her when I needed her off of the table for an activation. Trying to attack her isn’t even worth doing.

12 hours ago, Jordon said:

I used it a few times thinking the exact same thing but in reality I find it a bit of a situational ability. I find it very difficult to get more than 1-2 extra suits and beyond that, there's a few things to consider that I found out through my few games using her. 

If suits on a master are what you are hiring Mech Rider for then taking a cheaper model and having some spare soulstones might be as effective.

Innovation concerned me when Sandeep could use Mech Rider to summon multiple Golems in a turn. Now that that isn’t an issue it doesn’t seem as crazy.

2 hours ago, retnab said:

It can do it starting turn 2 if it doesn't spend its Fate Token turn 1, and it has enough to get it guaranteed every turn after

Technically she can do it turn 1. You need to take Soul Stone Cache on her. She'll need a tome for the Duel and to spend a Soul Stone tome as well as use her fate token. She can use Revelation on turn 2 if she doesn't use her fate token from turn 1.

With Summoners now only being able to summon once per turn, I don't think Innovation is as big a deal as it was.

Revelation may actually be a bigger issue. It might be kind of funny seeing a crew of something like Mech Rider with Soulstone Cache, The Captain, Coryphee Duet, Arcance Emissary, the Master of your choice, and a bunch of soulstones just go light something up with a few of those models being able to reactive immediately one after the other on turn 2. I don't know if it would be any good, but it sure would be amusing.   

Mech Rider doesn't seem like she's really all that durable for a 10SS with only really good stats and hard to wound protecting her 9 health. She also a Sz3 model with no ranged attacks so in general her Sz is going to make her easier to kill.  Anyone that wants to stop Mech Rider shenanigans should be able to if they prioritizing removing her or keeping her away from her friends..    
 

39 minutes ago, retnab said:

Normally yes, but since the Performers are quite schemey in general I figured it'd be a good middle-ground action for him

It would be a straight up nerf to Carlos in Kaeris crews (who already have access to keyword and versatile models with Arson) and I  think even in a Colette crew you'd still run into issues with the required setup. It seems like Carlos will usually kind of be wanting to work on his own on a flank or deeper onto the enemy side of the table than the rest of the crew will be. Needing to setup a scheme marker and then remove it makes Arson an very inefficient action unless it targets an enemy scheme marker.