WWHSD

When Gamin combine, is that going to result in a slow Golem? Does the new model count as attaching the summoning upgrade during the replace?

5 minutes ago, dannydb said:

just checking only one of the gamin need to have then summon upgread in order to become a golem?

Only the Gamin who is initiating the merge needs to have the summoning upgrade.

55 minutes ago, Gesuma said:

Sounds like you do not want to see any teams with more than one master in them?

It is already quite limited if Sandeep is not leader. To get two Golems on the board you need to hire two gamins of one kind and one gamin of another kind and then Sandeep can summon 2 gamin to the one gamin(max two summons) combine a Golem that then gains one of the summon upgrades, so sandeep can only summon one gamin now which can combine with the other two gamins. You have payed 12SS for those 3 hired gamins that Sandeep spend actions, ss and or good cards to turn into two Golems. Without hired Gamins sandeep cannot summon enough to make a golem when he is not leader.

Not at all, I've liked multiple master games. It just seems like having Sandeep on Golem replacement duty for Rasputina, Kaeris, or Mei Feng has the potential to get a little out of hand. When Sandeep is a hired master it feels like that's when he is most likely to want to summon a single type of Gamin most of the time. It may not end up being an issue but I think that if there's a case where combining Gamin into a Golem has the potential to be overpowered, it's there.  

6 hours ago, Gesuma said:

Sandeep change:

I am so happy Being able to summon the big golems (even with extra steps) is what makes summoning more fun in my book! I wonder how balanced it will really turn out to be though.

I think that the majority of reports on this ability will either say that the ability is overpowered or that it is useless. In games where Sandeep is already winning it’s going to seem overpowered because the opponent will feel like Sandeep is getting put Golems on the board without them being able to much to stop it. In closer games or games where Sandeep is losing it will feel like a useless ability since Sandeep will either not want to trade 3 models that can help score for 1 model or his opponent will be able to keep him from having 3 Gamin of the same type on the board and close enough to each other to combine.

I do think that maybe it needs to be limited to when Sandeep is the crew’s Leader.

4 hours ago, trikk said:

With how Serene Countenance and her trigger work:

I’ve been of the opinion that Serene Countenance is the problem with Colette feeling too defensive. What if Serene Countenance was changed from giving enemy attacks - flip ls to making enemies unable to cheat attack flips against her? There are some situations where it becomes a bit stronger than the current Serene Countenance but I think that in general it stops some of the really frustating issues with stacking multiple - flips. You’re never going to get to cheat your attack flip against her but at least a using a focus will get you flipping a single card against her while distracted.

Or maybe make Serene Countenance just make enemy models unable to cheat damage flips. 

I think either of those are still good Defensive abilities for other models that would be affected by the ability changing.

41 minutes ago, grymor said:

Yeah I can see why that could be a problem. I just wish they'd give her an actual identity instead of the subpar not that great fire person.  Pyres everywhere and extra burning every turn was a good direction for her but after every update and test it just seems like the devs want her to be as subpar as she was in 2nd Ed. Why the hell can't they just make her fun. She has to be great at dmg if they're gonna keep her a dmg master and she's not...

She just got a pretty big buff to her Pyres. If Kaeris's crew can make sure that fights are happening inside of Pyres they'll always be attacking models with bad Wp and Df. Something that charges into a Pyre and take two attacks will be sitting at -3 Df/Wp until the end of the turn.

Sandeep: It's kind of neat that Sandeep can Voltron Gamin into Golems but this feels like a "win more mechanic". Interestingly enough, 3 Wind Gamin or 3 Poison Gamin can merge to become an Essence of Power. Limiting the Concentrate action to once per activation should stop elemental models from being Mantra bots. I didn't think it was a problem, as it doesn't seem to be an effective way to win but now it's a non-issue.   

Mechanical Doves: Killing the Dove is a bit of a nerf since Colette can now ever only get a single stone out of a Dove, making the stone you spend to summon one essentially a wash. Previously, Colette would net a soulstone by summoning a dove, allowing a Dove to be used to to Soulstone for one purpose, and then used to stone for it's replacement. 

Soulstone Miner: The Miner can get generate a Soulstone and Bury on the same turn now due to the change in Stunned. It's going to need to flip to Bury now but at least it's possible to hit the trigger that places a Pit Trap now.

Medical Automaton: Quick Cure is a cool ability which essentially allows the Automaton to take the Assist action for free.

Howard Langston: Terrifying should make Howard a bit harder to deal with. 

Joss: Though it's a bit of a nerf, it's nice to see the Irreducible damage not be guaranteed. Hyper Reactor is a straight up improvement to Spool Up since it will give the Power token before determining if the attack hit or miss. If Joss is going to lose an attack duel, you can now cheat in a low tome to get him a Power Token to spend on his next attack.

Kaeris: A bit less likely to need to cheat to generate a Pyre. The change to Third Degree Burns is a big buff since range and LoS to Kaeris no longer matter. I'm not sure how the bit about enemy models are never unaffected by Pyre Markers will interact with other abilities. Does it work against Incorporeal models?

Eternal Flame: The change to the timing and trigger on this really helps out since the ability will now be able to affect models that don't take damage from Burning.

Firestarter: Draw Out Secrets gives a Firebug crew some extra game when it comes to scheme running. It also lets the Firestarter help setup models with Arson (though I think it might be too much work for too little pay off in most cases). 

Ironsides: The change to Stun is a nice buff for Toni. She can now use Second Wind to remove the Stunned condition, which was probably the condition that she most needed condition removal to deal with. 

 

Getting a model across the table quickly isn’t what made the Viks scary. They were scary because what they were getting across the table was making muliple high stat, high min damage attacks with plus flips, those attacks ignored some common defensive tech, and there were a lot of them.

If you weren’t prepared for the slingshot it might take out a few models. It also didn’t telegraph where it was going to hit due to the chain activation.

This doesn’t really have any of that going for it.

I think the Beast needs something like Leap with a trigger to make a attack to really make him shine.  I wouldn't mind seeing his attack pick up a trigger that gives the target Adversary (Beast) Maybe Vogel a Demise ability that lets him replace himself with The Beast (in addition to the shape shift) and Heal 2.  Since Vogel kind of supports the crew by boosting their Defenses, maybe The Beast could work as a model that buffs the offensive ability of the crew.

As for things The Beast currently does that Vogel doesn't, it is kind of nice to use The Beats Bonus action in conjunction with Marcus's to move the crew 6".  

The Captain and the Emissary are solid versatile models because they bring min 3 damage to crews that don’t have a lot of access to it within their keyword models.

2 hours ago, Specky said:

I thought perhaps the medical automaton should be versatile. A bunch of the effects on the card support living models... which aren't super prevalent in a Hoffman crew i would have thought.

Also maybe essence of power. I kinda feel that Soulstone Cache as an upgrade for 2ss is always a better pick than paying 4 + merc tax anywhere else. Would be curios to hear people's pro-EoP stance tabletop experiences. I feel the EoP should at least have a demise ability.

The Medical Automaton was Versatile for most of the closed beta. It got Hoffman’s keyword, lost versatile, and got a 1SS reduction. The end result was that the the model stayed the same cost for everyone and got a SS cheaper to hire into a Hoffman crew.

I’ve really like the EoP as a hire. I’ve never hired him out of keyword though and I’ve never hired him for the ability that overlaps with Soulstone Cache, that’s just a nice bonus when it happens. The reason I hire the EoP is for getting my models +1 to the all of their oppossed duels. That’s a significant benefit that as far as I know is unique to the EoP.

1 hour ago, retnab said:

3) Yeah, Blessed and Hoarcat are probably the most under/overcosted models in December respectively

I think that the biggest problem here is that the Blessed has a very clear role that it fills and most of the abilities and actions that it has really help it to fill that role. The Hoarcat isn’t really sure what it wants to be doing and its abilities and actions are kind of all over the place.

2 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

I got the Wildfire crew on the table again with this weeks changes.   

The design space still seems REALLY muddled for the Kaeris crew as a whole, there doesn't ever seem to have been a firm position taken on who you're supposed to be setting on fire.  I still think in terms of in faction USP and design space it makes way more sense for her to buff her own crew by giving them burning (like in M2e) rather than ending up as a sub-Rasputina but with fire YMMV.

I also think we could kill a massive amount of rules bloat if her totem had an ability that simply said;  Friendly models in this crew may choose not to take damage from the burning condition.  That way we don't have to put a rule on everything that stops it burning to death and/or having to activate in fiddly order to avoid taking burning damage.

 

I wouldn’t mind having the focus of Kaeris’s crew shift a little more towards the idea of the Burning condition being a good thing for them and being less dependent on the enemy suffering the effects of Burning and Pyre Markers. 

Effects on enemies should be checking for the existence of the Burning condition on or to their proximity to Pyre markers. This keeps models that are immune to burning damage or hazardous terrain from being able to avoid most of Kaeris’s crews mechanics.

I don’t like the idea of tying the crew’s mitigation of Burning or Pyre Markers to Kaeris’s totem, since the totem is relatively easy to remove leaving the crew in a bad place once it has been killed.

The Firestarter being a Reckless scheme runner with Flight is pretty much what people coming from M2E are going to expect him to be, right?

Pass tokens losing their card draw was a bit of a stealth buff for Sandeep since the oppoing crew is likely to be getting pass tokens and have less cards in hand.

I’m not sure why Wyrd got rid of the card draw, it seem like that was getting the pass tokens used more often in my games instead of just having them held on to for the initiative boost.

What I expect to actually see a lot on turn one is models concentrating and walking instead of just double concentrating. That still allows you to get models into position, should give you decent hand to work with on turn two, have some models with a focus to use on an attack, and the Shielded +1 makes it less likely that a model that advances on turn one gets picked off by an attack of opportunity by one of your opponents ranged attacks.

8 minutes ago, katadder said:

Concentrate in a later turn isn't even costing you anything as you gain shielded, heal and move whilst card cycling. Maybe only 1 attack after but can be a harder hitting one.

How is it not costing you anything, you are using your model’s actions to do it. Most models get to take 10 actions total if they live until the end of the game. If a model spends 2 actions on turn one concentrating and one action in each of the following turns then it’s left with a total of 4 actions to actually do something useful. Actions are a valuable resource.

The Academic mantra stacking is fantastic if you’ve got a model that would normally be focusing or doesn’t have anything useful to do with an action. If you are Concentrating instead of doing other things there’s an opportunity cost attached to doing so.

You’re sinking alot of Soulstones into Academic crew members that you are planning on not fully utilizing if you are keeping them in the bubble. 

In an encouter pool that required your crew to control a spot on the table (which there aren’t any currently) this might be a strong strategy. I don’t think that it’s any stronger than an M&SU or Augmented crew would be in the same situation.

5 minutes ago, dannydb said:

Put pressure on sandeep, who is sat behind a wall of gamin, with shielded 2. and doesn't need to get involved becuase his 3 actions will be summon, make a gamin do a thing and then either walk or shoot though an academic

A Gamin with Shielded +2 did jack and shit to help Sandeep score or remove enemy models. 

Don’t forget that the other crew is also bringing their own tricks.

I think you also need to keep in mind that Sandeep is now kind of a squishy master that isn’t particularly mobile. I think that once people start to unlearn M2E you’ll probably see more pressure being put on Sandeep directly. 

2 minutes ago, dannydb said:

thats correct. think there was a slight miss remembering on my opponunts side, but its still so much more stronger than anything else that could be done 

 

also banasuva and sandeep both  have actions which can make gamins take actions which can focus to get all the effects of

 

I don’t think that the Fortress of Focus tactic is one that is going to see much success as you are more or less letting your opponent do more or less whatever they want turn 2. There may be some encounter pools and crews that it can be effective into but I don’t expect it to be seen much at higher level play once things have had a chance to develop some.

20 minutes ago, katadder said:

They can push 2" each time the concentrate with one of the mantras, so if they start in a blob and zero concentrate using sandeep you have moved 6", have 3 focus each and cycled upto half your deck (at least my opponent did).

So that's more focus than alot of other crews, plus moved, plus set up your hand for turn 2

You’re playing it wrong. The only models that can use Concentrate as a zero action are the Oxfordian Mage and the Shastar Vidya Guard (and it requires a discard). Neither of those models can benefit from Mantras other than those printed on their own card. 

A crew creeping up 4” on turn one still doesn’t put it in position to do much turn 2.

Just now, katadder said:

You set yourself up for turn 2 by doing it turn 1, stacking focus etc.

And maybe even more focus and shielding from sandeep ready to beat face.

Also card cycling at that level is crazy as you always have a good hand

Shielding ends at the end of the turn so you can’t really stock it up turn 1. There’s not much more adavatage to doing what you described with a Sandeep crew than there is with any other crew. 

If you’ve used all of your turn 1 actions Concentrating, you haven’t been moving your models into position to attack, score VP, or try to stop your opponent from scoring. 

I intially thought that the stacking mantras would be a problem but after playin it a couple of times, I realized it wasn’t that big a deal (and when I played it, Kudra’s mantra allowed you to take the top card from your discard pile and put it on top of your deck, which you could then draw woth Kandara’s mantra).

Why change it if it isn’t causing an issue? I found it to be a good ablity but not overpowering. You really need to keep your crew close together to be taking advantage of multiple auras which isn’t what you always to be doing.

5 hours ago, Adran said:

 

Fires biggest downside is its reliance on burning, and the potential ability to remove that condition.

 

What I thought was odd was how badly people were freaking out about how hard the Fire Golem was to kill and I wasn't seeing any battle reports of people using condition removal to leave the Golem without any armor. I thought the ability for all of the Burning to get removed kind of kept it in check. 

5 hours ago, Sabbac said:

Or you can kill the dove before attacking Colette, which shouldnt be difficult xD

Keeping Doves too close to Colette is a good way for her to eat blasts.