Fixxer

23 minutes ago, matt said:

Hey, so the reason the card is set aside is only for the literal time it takes to shuffle the deck during an Activation. If a player were to do this Action at the start of their Activation they have to stop what they are doing, shuffle their cards, then get back to the Action. When/If a player does this 7 times in a single Turn, they are spending a lot of time in their Activation shuffling their deck (7x shuffle to be sure it is random). By having them shuffle at the end of their Activation, play can quickly pass to their opponent and no time is wasted shuffling the deck.

I missed this, apologies above.

Seems like a few posts went up at the same time. 😶

I get what you're trying to do, all kept cards would be shuffled back in during the end phase. You'd lose access to the kept cards only during that turn. 👌

I prefer the Lucid dream of last week, both kept cards should be discarded. 

5 minutes ago, matt said:

You're currect it is the wrong wording, so it will be adjusted in the next update. Thanks for the catch.

I think this is way too much handling of the deck. IMO the kept card should be placed at the bottom of the fate deck.  Sure the players will have an idea of whats on the bottom of their deck and it will be a race to possibly get to those cards. Shuffling a deck 5 times a turn is going to get a bit ridiculous.

1 hour ago, zavros said:

I can see a fast izamu push with treacherous paths work if the terrain is favorable and bad juju isn't in the way. Izamu gets one hit a turn because of her auto defense trigger so it needs to hit hard, yan luo gets around the trigger but her wp is 8 . I feel like in that case  zoraida just pumps her actions into obeying her own models, such as a nearby silurid who can croak on yan and izamu twice with encorcelled obey and twice on its own turn to stack a bunch of distracted on them so they can never hit her. Not to mention obeys on bad juju who can put out a lot of damage on yan and throw slows onto him and izamu. She could still spend 1-2 actions affecting the board if she needs to while I still have to focus all of my actions of a master and a beater to harass her.  

Not saying it won't work, I'm willing to try it, it just seems like I have to spend way more resources to fight her than she has to spend to negate it. I actually think the design on zoraida is really cool but she innately has more resources to use which is causing the problems here.

@Raging_Iggy I'll try misaki as a second master for fighting silurids. It just seems like I have to spend an excessive amount of resources to fight 1 - 2 models from my opponent who cost almost a 3rd of misaki's cost.

 

I hear that, I didn’t say it was gonna be easy.  BUT putting pressure on her can seriously hinder her support capabilities and turn the tide. Maybe try it out next time you face her and see if it makes the encounter more balanced. 

I can appreciate that menacing croaks 6" range and the WP duel being 14 might be a bit high. Absolutely could be changed to once per activation, or a bonus, or lower the tn/range.

I dont think the action has been utilized enough to see the data on its effectiveness. Most people do strictly scheme run with them. 

Im quick to argue against nerfing, appreciate the conversation though.

22 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Ouch, yeah. A 3 is way too easy especially with everything they bring. They are similar to Necropunks in purpose, but Silurds have an easier Leap, Butterfly Jump, Stealth, better Df, a better attack and dmg, and a ridiculous Tactical with a 6" range to give Distracted against a 14Wp (for most models that's a 9). I'd be taking three all day - they are only one SS more than a Necropunk who can't do anything like what the Silurid can do. 

Why do they need both Butterfly Jump and Leap? The Leap should at the very least cost a 7 so that sometimes you might have to spend a card to get it off if you can't top-deck it. I would argue that the Pulse on Menacing Croak could use a drop in range too, but I might be a bit biased against Distracted.  

Well for 1ss less you got a model with HtW and armor, which is very survivable. About survivable as having butterfly jump, really. You make it sound like the Silurid is leaps and bounds better than a Necropunk... I dont see that at all. 

Leaping on a 5 isnt so bad considering the toughness of a necropunk, they're still providing excellent scheme running abilities albeit different. These models arent costed the same and exist in different factions, they'll need differences that are inline with how their faction functions. Toughness with ressers, mobility with Bayou. Entropy is also a very useful ability to have... If you know a model is on 1 health and hasnt activated a necropunk can insert itself easily within 3" to auto kill that model. Auto damage is very strong, even if its 1 point. 7ish" due to a 3" aura is pretty big too. 

Sure menacing croak might be a high TN but for a 6ss model they'll need an additional action to satisfy multiple roles, they arent just scheme runners at that point, their useful 6ss models with a variety of useful actions. They're still pretty squishy if you can get into them. 

1 hour ago, zavros said:

There's just no counterplay. I can't see a way in my faction to consistently deal with them because they are so mobile on top of all their other defensive abilities. On top of that, there's still zoraida who can use a single action to deny any interaction I could have with them.

There absolutely is counter play... just ask. We are here to help. 

Yan Lo couldnt apply his upgrade to create hazardous terrain around himself and insert into Zoraida?

I know Yan Lo is very fast and has upgrades that can be very good in the right situation. If Zoraida is dead or threatened she has less ability to counter play that Silurid who is up the board.

Izamu also has "unyielding", he cannot be obeyed. He can also come back to life with rebuild corpus, can be pushed insane amounts right into Zoraida and kill her. Izamu couldnt be a better pick into Zoraida. If she spends time trying to take him down with his Armor +2 (she doenst have armor piercing options) it will take too much AP... not only that Izamu can heal or be resummoned. Forcing Zoraidas crew to have to deal with him is the AP sink you need to counter her playstyle. 

 I've played against Yan Lo a few times and he was a monster. Being aggressive stifles obey and support masters. If theyre busy trying to stay alive they're not affecting the board very well. 10T are my main opponents and I've taken Zoraida into them a few times., there is quite a bit of "laugh off" in the faction too.. Obeys are way less effective against them (Crime bosses, Minako Rei)

Just my opinion, I dont think Zoraida or Silurids need any downgrading, at all. .

Zoraida cannot obey masters. In fact, masters tend to do really well against her. 

Anecdotal experiences are obviously all we are working with but I do think taking a step back and looking for solutions in game rather than changing models/masters is really important. If we dont find any solutions for that particular problem/master/model...  then its time to change the model. 

In my experience, once my opponents learn to deal with a masters strengths we start to see them balancing out. Sure a game might be wonky due to a poor crew pick into a certain master but a conversation afterwards about the different crew possibilities usually leads to an answer of how to deal.  

 If you go into Zoraida with a willy nilly keyword force you'd like to play, you might be in trouble. When an opponent declares Zoraida you should be looking to hire a secondary master if not two... Im serious.  At that point putting pressure on Zoraida herself with those masters will have her fold like a tent. Sure, you might not enjoy running multiple masters but the situation may be asking you to do that, despite your preference, winning is the goal. So, you should really be looking for counter picks the moment you learn which master you are facing. -THIS WILL TAKE TIME. 

I realize its still early in the beta and people are looking at their games a certain way and in hindsight the hiring process is where you can see a master dominate the field and seem OP. I feel like we arent looking at these sorts of solutions and quickly go to "change this, change that". Before we call for change perhaps asking for ideas will help find where the balance actually lies. 

7 hours ago, HipsterWhale said:

Do we think anything will change for swampfiend now that stagger is changing potentially??

They're changing stunned which is what I think you're referring to, on Penetrating stench. 

I do believe this takes their keyword ability from bad to even worse. 

But Zoraida did get "eyes in the night" back which helps, a little.  

1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

Wouldn't regurgitate mean they will be auto picks?

Can't we give them Stealth and lose a Wp point?

I dont think regurgitate would make them auto picks, nor would I think they'd regurgitate more than turn one in most cases. A lot of crews are "set up" crews and take turn 1 to sit back and power up. I dont think it would make them auto takes, it would just add another layer of use which is what @Kharnage wants from the model. I dont think they'd add a brand new action to the mix so borrowing regurgitate form the Blood Hunter seems like an easy trial action. Perhaps make the hounds a non bonus action to differentiate it from the totem. 

Just throwing out ideas. 

Stealth might not be a bad idea, I think that'd be kind of strong considering how I tend to use them. I mean, more the merrier, I wouldnt be opposed to adding something to them. Just dont want to sacrifice their cost, movement, or significance. That trifecta is solid, IMO but am open to changes that dont mess with those traits. 

Maybe give them regurgitate? 

They have regeneration and some other minor crew healing. 

2 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

This. So much min 3 in the game, or 2 with crit strike available, against Df 4, it's not hard to get a single AP taking these dogs out, where minimum 4 is much harder for a Tot and they have protected to layer on top of it. Not that every model ever is dealing 3 damage, but if it's all I have to deal in order to remove 2 significant AP you best believe I'm roasting some dogs as an opponent. There's only so much board the dogs can run to while running schemes, since most of them have specific locations they have to reach anyway that can be played against. And I find "but they provoke Insolence on death" to be a small comfort. 

That's fine and I appreciate the approach and experience. I still see min 2 out there and also make sure to position models to either counter charge or pull enemies out of position. 

I think the Nephilim offer a crew that has an option at 7 significant Mv6 models for 24ss. Some of which can grow off the others demise into better models. Couple that with a Master and Henchman that fly and deal serious damage in Melee and you can really spread them out and pick off aggressors. Sure shooting is a problem but that should be mitigated by cover/terrain. 

Terrain and schemes/opponent will have a lot to do with the hiring process but Im arguing that they are viable models at 3ss in the right pool against the right opponent.  I see them a perfectly viable models in the keyword. 

Tough disagreeing with you @Kharnage LOL... 

Hounds are Mv6 and significant models for 3ss.  I think they  should really be spread out and threatening lanes for breakthrough, search the ruins, power ritual, etc...

In my experience I've hired 4 dogs and 2 tots. Thats 20ss and a lot of flexibility given the 6" movement on all of them and their ability to be carried. I see pack mentality more as an opportunistic ability for an activated and over extended model not as a main focus. They drop corpses in death for your other models to eat all the same and punish models for hitting them in melee with BB.

Being fast and small means they can hide pretty well and get rides with other models flying with them.  In terms of a scatter and pick off strategy, I dont think there is another crew that does it better. Saying you'd bring terror tots for 1ss more is a fine argument but sometimes when making a list you dont want to spend those stones, all you need is a significant model that can threaten a scheme. Any thing that deters an opponent attacking your master is big. If theyre in a position to attack Nekima or go after a dog on a flank because it might score a VP, its a tough call. That's what a good fast crew is all about, you cant stop everything.   

This is also where I've had success with Heyriddens aura. He has sort of acted as the retainer for the hounds.. theyre hunter if you will. His aura healed them, he was able to punish models that charged one of them and he sort of acted as a buffer for them to penetrate the back field and scheme.

I appreciate not being happy with what the model offers but at 3ss its asking a lot to add an ability that would make them an "auto take". I think at 3ss having a fast, small, significant model, that has the keyword abilities is just fine in the right pool. Overwhelming actions are a thing despite pass tokens. I am one that has always taken larger crews over more elite ones and I havent felt outclassed in a scheme pool that calls for action economy and speed.  

I personally think its a rather weak keyword ability considering what else is out there. I've played about 5 games with her recently and havent seen penetrating stench do anything of substance in those games.

For your opponent shooting crews/options will always be strong vs Neverborn as many of our abilities have to do with being close to enemies. Black blood, misery, penetrating stench, the  nightmare healing ability...  So In most cases when your opponent hears you declare NB he needs to think about ranged options.  

If anything, I'd like to see it changed to a flat 2" aura because engaging vs engaged can be another consideration, whereas an aura is immediately definitive. Stunned is just something you'll have to deal with if you dont save cards for certain activations, resource management. 

As @Kharnage put, if we swapped the discard, Zoraida would have more of an advantage in that case. 

Not at all. 

Well instead of ignoring damage from BB they heal 1, its more simple than you're making it. 

I wouldnt add the additional part about taking damage to heal it back to proc more black blood out, which would as @Kharnage put, create and endless feedback.  

4 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

Maybe. But it does say instead and that has a whole other meaning. 

You're adding  layers to the ability that arent there. I appreciate you bringing it up so we can play it the way its supposed to be played.  

Just now, Angelshard said:

@Fixxer 

But if you heal one instead of ignoring how do you then avoid the damage? I truly cannot see how you would argue that instead doesn't mean you cn no longer ignore the damage. 

Again there is the issur black blood can no longer trigger black blood because its neither an action nor a trigger. It would have in the earlier version and I personally think its an oversight. 

Believe it. I am also looking at the intent of the rule and find the way you are playing it to be against how the designers want black blood to work. They dont want enemies to be able to be hit for more than 1 damage at a time from a single instance of BB. And its a bad ability when its played this way, IMO.  So, I understand where you are coming from in terms of language but do not think it was the intent. This conversation will help clarify the rule. 

10 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

@Fixxer exactly, you heal instead of ignoring damage. So you don't ignore the damage, meaning you take one damage.  That is the only way instead makes sense to me. 

The only problem is that black blood only works on actions or triggers, so you can't proc it from another black blood. 

That doesnt seem very clear considering the name of the action and dont believe that is the intent.

Thats not the way I played it when I fielded him and understand it to mean that they heal 1 rather than ignoring the damage. You are adding in a whole new realm of interaction with   breaking even on health but spraying their own black blood. I dont think thats how it works and would look for clarification from Wyrd. 

When it would ignore it instead heals 1.

47 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

Hayreddins Aura only works in enemy activations and it doesn't ignore damage, it let's you take damage, so your own black blood triggers and heal one so it doesn't matter. This way you get 2 damage on an opponent.

I dont think thats how it works.

You heal 1 instead of ignoring the damage, meaning you wouldnt take damage or proc another black blood pulse.

Unless revitalizing means something different. Perhaps the wording on the ability isnt clear enough.  

The healing from Heyriddens aura is only during enemy activation unfortunately. I have no idea why it would be a problem to hurt your own guys for a little healing within 6" of Heyridden but you know.. caveats.

Also, consume corpse is a bonus action meaning the young can only take one per turn. He cannot mature until after turn 3.

Revitalizing Ichor: During enemy Activations, when a friendly model within a6 would ignore damage from Black Blood, it may instead Heal 1

25 minutes ago, Yajnho said:

None of this has any synergy with Nightmares, which was the point of the original post.  Right now there is no reason to take her in a nightmare crew.  

It’s not that she’s bad per say, she just represents an opportunity cost because other models in her price range(and higher) have better synergy.  If taking her means I can’t squeeze in Coppelius then there is no way I am taking her.  Carver fills the henchman slot a lot better than her as well.  If she still had a way to inflict a penalty on will power she would become very good in a Dreamer crew. 

It actually does have synergy. It’s a Wp duel which will have a friendly buried nightmare unbury in b2b after they are moved away. This is a great delay tactic and with the way Nightmare summoning works, has synergy. This action could score you hold up they’re forces during an activation all while putting enemy models out of position. 

‘These are all choices you get to make based on the opponent, s&S, table state, and masters. Sure Copelius might be great for one or the other, I don’t see WW being completely outshined in every game. That’s kind of the point of Malifaux, what tools you are choosing to bring to the job. Bandersnatch and WW are a package deal for me into certain matchups whereas Copelius and Serena might be for another. 

‘I’m arguing that she has play and synergy  in her current state. Don’t forget about stuffing tokens too, they’re only produced by Nightmares. Most 8ss henchmen that summon have decent melee attacks and I think WWs is on par too. Stat 6 2/3/4 with a built in poison is great if she needs to get in there. 

Pushing beater models away with terrorize is pretty nasty. Have you tried utilizing that action? If you put a web down in front of them after the push it slows them down even more. 

Stuffing tokens were a nice addition recently and free web markers (no tn bonus action) can be situationally useful agains crews that are on the ground. 

She is good with Zoraida also as the voodoo doll drops a scrap every turn and all the card draw means you should be able to get some good summons off. 

Well if the lure, obeys are controlled by the enemy, they MAY move you through your own models.  Then incorporeal model doesnt get to interject the may in an enemy controlled effect, if I'm not mistaken. 

Incorporeal: Reduce all damage this model suffers from Attack Actions by 1, to a minimum of 0. This model ignores Terrain while moving and ignores the Hazardous Terrain Trait. This model may move through other models and vice versa.

Incorporeal ignores models during moves according to the new(ish) text. It has changed an awful lot though. 

5 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Seems like your master got caught in a bad spot in turn 4 and died.... I totally forgot that out maneuvering the opponents models/resources and catching them in bad spots wasn’t the point of a strategic game... 

The point is to make everything more forgiving, so player mistakes are irrelevant and every player can beat every player even with a new crew in bad situations... 

Man, tough crowd. I thought we were all on the same team here.  

My point was that he died in 2 hits because incorporeal doesnt work against not attack actions which include Df triggers that deal damage. I was just making a point that any master that can go down in 2 hits is, again, getting a "nerf" to a rule that didnt really need it. He has extremely low health... To kill a fully healed master with 2 actions says something.

And its not like a master is the only model capable of doing this.  I've seen a ton of plus flip options, plenty of movement tricks, etc... Im not saying they ruined dreamer or that he sucks, Im just making a case for them to stop chipping away at his theme/play style. Again, he lost movement, incorporeal isnt what it used to be, and now he needs to ditch cards from his hand to remove them as if he wasnt strapped for cards already. 

Its fine, I get the frustration when reading about different experiences that might not have all the variables presented. 

 The reason the 2 hits was so gnarly was that it gave Ironsides the ability to then bonus action to move into Serene who was, before dreamer was killed, far enough away from an enemy and close enough to the center to get claim jump. Hence my not dropping a card to have her Lured by IronSides and thought Dreamer would at least hold her in place so that Serena could score Claim Jump. SInce he died so fast, IS engaged Serena denying her a VP. I get that Ironsides is a melee monster and it was a rough spot for my crew. But again, my opponent and I were both taken back by how quickly dreamer died and his inability to hold a beater model up for even 1 activation, at full health.

Again, dont assume that I dont understand circumstances or wouldnt compliment my opponent for making the right play or realizing the luck of cards.

I hope you guys have good Fridays today and hopefully get to play some Malifaux.