Qracy

I just had a game with Dashel last night and he performed very, very well.

I managed to summon two Executioner and one Guild Patrol.

Of course the restriction with the scheme marker makes it more difficult to summon, but on the other hand, if you use the scheme markers the enemy placed for example for scheming, you can kill two birds with one shot: Remove the enemy's scheme marker and summon a modell with just one action at a range of 8". And that is great, because the enemy can't do anything against it.

I just used The Dispatcher to create an enemy scheme marker on the first round, after that, there was no need for that any more, because there were enough enemy scheme marker around.

Therefore, I am OK, how Dashel's Summoning works at the moment.

And back to Topic:

I started with 3 Guild Hounds and they did a good job: They are good scheme runners, with a sergeant, they start with move 7 on the first round, running to the edges of the board, possibly scheming on round two for Outflank, Harness the Lay Line or Search the ruins. And if they die near another Guard, you can generate a Soulstone out of their corpse markers, making effectivly cost 2 Soulstones.

I'm happy with the Guild Hounds, but I agree, that the Guild Patrol is a bad choice withing the Guard: Compared to the Guild Hounds, which cost one less soulstone, they are too weak in offense and durability; compared to wardens, which cost one more soulstones, wardens are a way better: Armour +2, Ruthless and the ability to hand out Slow without the need of hitting a trigger is great. They are stuck in the middle: Armor +1 would make them much more versatile and give them a reason to pick into the crew.

9 minutes ago, trikk said:

You can't because its unrestricted now. So you can chain Dita into Frank into Santiago

But you have to discard a card or a pass token, what would work well with the Familiy's Tactical Planning trigger.

Of course this is strong, but you do not generate extra Actions like you do with the Hasta la muerte ability. So I think this would be worth a try.

On 7/17/2017 at 1:02 PM, Raven Court said:

That's one of the things, why I like metal miniatures more than plastic. The faces are easier to paint.

Perhaps I can soften the shadows a little bit.

 

No Guild without a good drill.

Here' s the sergeant...

 

 

I love this model and it's color scheme.

What are the colors you used for the green and the khaki?

Thanks for sharing.

What about forgetting all about that and simply give them "Companion" like in M2E?

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

For Draw their attention you must discard a card, so... 

But you dont have to be within 6“.

One less restriction, which makes it much more versatile.

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

If you have luck triggering Drop It (nobody has it in-built), or cheat high tomes (and your opponent doesn't cheat higher versus your stat 5) or spend ss, AND your opponent drops an scheme marker (he decides where to place it) in 4" of one of your models. 

The other way is to spend early actions to recover them late. 

Why should Family have easier way to gain extra free actions? With that rule one only model damaging an enemy could trigger every single family model at 6", and those could trigger other family at 6" of them. 

Sorry Dude, but you are wrong.

Take a Look at Parker‘s Draw their attention. Furthermore, my opponent played the emissary, who‘s bonus action pushes a friendly model 3“ and then places a Scheme Marker in base contact.

Nice synergy....

2 hours ago, Ferdat said:

i would agree that now it has gone i cant see it doing anymore harm. 

when seize them was still on his card i could see why that would be abusive, but we have lost that now and the crew has taken a step back in damage already with models losing crit strike stats being knocked down or the damage spreads be lowered it has been getting progressively harder to do anything.

Agreed.

One Step to the right direction would be to leave out the +2 TN for friendly scheme markers. That would be ok, you can use a friendly one, if you don't have an enemy around or use an enemy one so save an action for placing a friendly scheme marker.

Concerning multiple summoning, I think it is worth a try, but I think you have to take a closer look at the results and maybe we realize it is too strong because of the other synergies. But maybe not... 😊

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

That means that every family model gains an extra action without cost. Even Perdita. 

Yes, you should exclude Perdita.

But for the rest, I think that is ok, because you still have to be in 6" and another model has to damage an enemy.

Look at Parker's Crew:

If you play right, your important models can get Fast every Turn and in combination with Run and Gun, this is really nasty. It means, that you can move and shoot three times, so that are 4 Actions every turn! I just played against that some days ago.

So I don't know, why the Family Models should not get something like that...

15 minutes ago, trikk said:

I don't think it should be free. I like adding an option to use Pass Tokens as well as cards. 

Yes, that sounds good to me, because it is then a tactical question, what is more valuable to you? Cards in hand to have the possibility to cheat or pass tokens for maybe initiative.

15 minutes ago, trikk said:

I would also limit how often it can be used per model, so we don't go all Infinity with 6 Nino shots a turn. I would drop the damage requirement and the cost requirement and would make it non-Master and MAAYBE require taking a  action/Attack Action during your activation.

That could be a way. Maybe working like the Aracane shield ability and companion in M2E:

Every Family model gains a "Hasta la Muerte" Token during the Start Phase. If an friendly Family Model resolves an Attack action within 6 [maybe that damaged an enemy model], this model may spend a HLM Token to take a non- Action. At the end of the turn, discard all HLM Tokens.

In addition, you could think about a once-per-turn mechanic for Abuela and/or the Nephilim to hand out a HLM Token to a friendly familiy model, making them better toolboxes for the Family.

30 minutes ago, trikk said:

Hiring 3 dogs usually means giving pass tokens so either you have a chance of losing initiative or your models are relatively worse than the enemies.

 

Yes, but what would you expect? If you change Dashel's summon ability and make it work for example like Somer, so that you could summon multiple Guild Guards, the enemy would get pass tokens, too.

If you hire dogs, you get 6 Actions more, and in the end, actions are winning games.

My experience from the first few M3E OB games are, that in most cases, I and my opponent had difficulties to fulfill strats and schemes due to the lack of "free" actions. I had no game, in which anyone scored more that 5 Points. In general, 3-4 Points were gathered.

I would give it a try, to hire 3 Dogs and summon the expensive models.

40 minutes ago, trikk said:

Dashel has, I believe, the most limited master summoning mechanic (except maybe Ramos)

Sandeep has Stat 7, mutiple models, no extra resources

Somer has Stat 6, multiple models, no extra resources

Dreamer has Stat 6, multiple models, no extra resources

Kirai has Stat 7, multiple models, no extra resources,

Dashel has Stat 4/6, single model, requires a marker.

Yes, that's true. I also wish, that his Summon Ability is more reliable.

I think in general, the Guild is not meant to be at eye level as far as summoning is concerned, because it is more the realm of the other factions.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

You still have to discard to 6 cards. So what does it change? You can discard higher cards to use the ability 😜

Generating 4 Pass Tokens is super hard, from what I understood unless you bring an elite crew (and pass tokens don't give cards).

And they go out after initiative flip so you can't use it for this.

No, I'am sorry, maybe my expression was not very well.

What I wrote refered to the situation, if you do not have to discard a card:

6 High Cards in your hand, Ini-Boost to pass tokens and the possibility to "chain activate" in combination to high-Stat models seemed a little bit too strong to me.

Because you cannot just look at the isolated ability, but also how it interacts with the other possibilities the game is offering to you.

That was, what I meant. 😅

10 minutes ago, trikk said:

3) You make 1 action at the end of activation so for Frank to have 3 extra attacks you would have to end your 3 activations near him and you have to damage someone in each one of them o0

Yes, that's true, my fault.

10 minutes ago, trikk said:

4) What do you mean "multiple card draws at the start of the turn"? The whole keyword has just Hero's Gamble to draw cards...

Spending multiple soulstones at the start of the turn. For sure, that is not a specific ability of this crew...

But in combination with let's say 4 Pass tokens generated during the last turn, that's a great start.

I can understand, why they included the discard mechanism.

Most of the models you would use this mechnanic on have a stat of 7 or 6 on their melee or projectile attack actions, which is top-level in M3E.

And then, if you combine that with with multiple card draws at the start of the turn + the initative boost through the pass tokens, if you postioned Perdita an Francisco well, that would be an overwhelming combo: Perdita, making 3 Stat 7 Attacks and Franc, adding 3 Stat 7 Melee Attacks for free. There has to be a draw back and give the defender a chance, and that is simply reducing the possibility to cheat for Perdita & Co.

An Alternative to this would be:

Hasta la Muerte: After this model ends its Activation, if an enemy model was damaged
during this Activation, another friendly Family model within a6 with Cost equal or less than
this model may to take an Action. In Opposed duels, that model may not cheat it's attack flip.
 

Just two ideas, to give the Dogs/the Guard a home in this Crew:

Dogs: Unimpeded would be nice for scheme running, increasing their mobility. And in my opinion makes sense, who can better walk through rough terrain thain a dog?

Dog: Give them the Drop It! trigger to their melee attack, would give them a synergy with Dashel

Guard: Give them the Drop It! trigger to their projectile attack, would give them a synergy with Dashel

I think it would be no big change, but chances the meta of the Crew: You can use the actions of the cheap models for creating enemy scheme markers and use ohter actions/triggers on the more expensive models.

I don't see, why you need to change the summon ability of Dashel:

Your argument is, that it is not worth summoning a dog. That's true, but why should you even try? Go the other way, hire dogs/Guards into your crew, for example 3 Dogs instead of an Executioner an summon the expensive models like a Seargent, an Executioner or Riflemen (if you do not have a 13 in your hand).

One change would be worth to think about it:

Making his summon ability more reliable:

Give him a to his Summon Stat. Or allow him to use concentrate for this tactical action. Therefore you can try a summoning even when you do not have a high card ready in your hand.

44 minutes ago, Cleezy said:

@trikk when this change happened in the CB my presumption (based on games at both stat 6 and 7) was that LJ has an easy way to get into combat without charging and at stat 7 she had an easy route to be on a straight flip against nearly every model in the game and with some minor resource use could easily put out really high min/mod damage. The single point less means it isn’t always guaranteed against the majority.

But that argument could also be produced for reducing the Vics or Nekima to a Stat of 6. Then, you should not have any heavy Hitter in the game with a Stat of 7. Becuse of Foucus not ending at the end of the turn, if you concentrate on Turn 1, every Heavy Hitter with a Stat of 7 can hit the bull's eye and deal moderate or severe damage.

I mean the build in on her damage cannot be the only argument, why the Guild's heavy hitting Master should be worse (Stat 6) than the other faction's ones.

Nekima has Flight and can Charge 3 Times in one Turn.

The Vics are a pair of two Models instead of one, making up to 12 (!) Stat 7 Attacks with their Coordinated Attack Trigger, when they fight side by side.

What about giving her the "Onslaught" trigger instead of Quick Reflexes?
That would fit better to her background and playstyle (related to M2E) and would differentiate her more to the Judge.

That would change the meta a little bit: Lady J is hunting down big targets and the Judge focuses on bulks of enemies.

And I don't know, why she has the Decay Range Attack? I mean, it's great to have it, but as far as the lore is concerned (and the new model we saw at gencon), a "Pinebox" with a Stat of 3 or 4 with the possibility to attack that buried model, when hitting the correct trigger, would fit better, won't it?

Just now, trikk said:

I think 4thstringer made a simplification. The stalker wasn't from the Snowstorm. He was from an Acolyte.

Ah ok, thanks for that explanation. Maybe need another cup of coffee this morning 😅

On 1/22/2019 at 4:21 AM, 4thstringer said:

Summoned one stalker, after opponent killed his own snowstorm with the demise from a thrall and a stalker.

I'm sorry, maybe it is a silly question, but how do you do that? How can you summon a model, when an opponent kills his own model?

I think Sonnia has to kill it via the Scorch the Soul Ability. Or have I just understand anything wrong?

17 hours ago, Mr MR Dub said:

Handlers certainly have more synergy unmentioned with Goad Witchling and On My Orders. Benefits for her Witchlings being up close with her Collier trigger and for Witchfire.

Yes, but their synergies do not have anything to do with the burning condition, which Sonnia focuses on.

My point is, that Sonnia by herself is no longer a beststick, she can hand out a lot of burning, but the benefit of that is too small. As the synergies are, which I listed beforehand.

And the burning condition by itself is not that dangerous as it was beforehand.

And that is, why I am disappointed about her.

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I think Kaeris was probably one of the better balanced masters in M2E and I'd personally wished all masters kind of worked like her. The difference between her and M3E Sonnia are that Sonnia's Flameburst combines both of Kaeris shooting actions which makes it a lot more AP efficient. Furthermore Kaeris had a lot more struggles giving burning because of how many decent models actually gave out Burning in her crew and how cover works in M2E and a lot of her kit required being close to the opponent which meant she spent a lot of her time moving.

 

Now Sonnia is just a ranged debuffer/damage dealer. Her whole crew basically can give out Burning at range and with the changes to Cover (+1Df is way more managable than negative twist) I don't think the comparison is valid.

Now I only had a single game with a recent version of Sonnia, so it might be luck/misinterpreted rules but I don't think the crew lacked synergy. The crew 'idea' is mostly:
'Stack Burning on stuff so opponent either dies/gets turned into a Stalker or spends a turn on Assists'

I agree in most of the things that you have written.

But my experience in my first game was, that stacking the burning condition on the enemy is rather inefficient in the way burning works right now.

And that is why I am disappointed.

It feels like Sisiphos: You work hard to geht that damn Burning Condition on the enemy, you really try hard but then  the rock rolls back and you get nothing in reward.

On 1/17/2019 at 10:32 PM, Sweet Tooth said:

Feels like you missed a few:

Sam has Flaming Bullets to put more burning out, which gives him  on damage and lets Sonnia start hitting things ignoring Cover & Concealment.

Sonnia has Smother Flame. A global ability that reduces your range for non-melee attacks based on your burning value. Her crew can put out a lot of burning! In certain match-ups this will be clutch.

Witchling Handlers have Witchfire which puts out 2-3 burning at a time, making it so much easier for Sonnia and Sam to capitalize on.

Spellcasters are great schemers now with the ability to go Fast when activating near soulstone users, which includes Sonnia, Sam, Quellers, & Handlers.

Lastly, all the Witchling models have No Love for Witchlings, which lets other WH friendlies ignore them for Friendly Fire purposes, perfect for the ranged actions on the Witch Hunters.

There's definitely a ton of synergy in this crew, though I admit I have yet to make Scorch the Soul work. I've found the Keyword provides plenty of options for playstyle and Strats/Schemes, but does take a few games to figure out order of operation & who does what.

No, if you read my post, I didn‘t miss anything:

What you have written down are no synergies.

Just because a lot of models can hand out burning, it is still no synergy. A modell must have an additional benefit if an enemy has the burning condition to speak of a synergy. 

And as I have written before, I have listed all synergies within Sonnia‘s Crew refering the burning condition.

And that‘s it.

And there are no more, and that was my  argument and the comparison to Karris in M2E.

3 minutes ago, HowNot2Wargame said:

Thats true.  My point being that the crews abilities (such as quellers staggering people & Spell casters negation aura,) help make that def 4 less daunting.  

 

 

And that is what I meant with the Kaeris 2nd Exition Feeling: You can light everything up, but you feel like it didn't help you to reach your aims or to REALLY support your troops...

17 minutes ago, HowNot2Wargame said:

She is really different from m2e, she is more synergystic with her crew and they are more all rounders than previous.  She does way more than sitting back and shooting which has been really refreshing. There is plenty of incentive to bring her forward, and more options in the crew's debuffs to protect her, and there is always options with her.  Previously I found that if people got to her that was that.

5 games in closed beta really helped me to explore what she can offer, really looking forward to testing more in the open.

But besides Sonnia, I do not find THAT many synergies:

- Samael gets a on damage flips for his wooden hammer against Models with the burning condition.

- Thalarian Queller has Burning +3 as a restriction for his Flaming Brand Ability, which is nice but very situational.

- His Bonus Action is nice, placing a scheme marker in 8"...

- Witchling Thrall can heal by reducing the burning condition on enemy models.

That's it, or have I forgotten something (of course besides Sonnia herself).

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

I personally am strongly opposed to uncapping damage. If you want to play versus armor, I suggest Expert Marksman since Sonnia has a built in tome, she auto-ignores armor with that upgrade.

Also, armored targets are probably the worst targets for Sonnia.

I also don't like uncapping the damage, but I am also unhappy with the Sonnia she is right now.

16 minutes ago, trikk said:

Its all fun and games until she walks up to you, uses seeking flame, and turns that Teddy into a Witchling Thrall

 

I like that she got "averaged". Her offense is a lot less damage focused and more burning focused but she got Move 5, some utility and a lot better defense with Counterspell, Arcane Shield and LLC.

I tried exactly that, attacked Teddy several rounds, but with armour and regenrate, I didn't got him down to 4 wounds (what I would need, even with Burning 8, because of his armour and Seeking Flame is limited to 5 damage).

Another option would be cutting off the limit of 5 damage to seeking flame, that would also be ok.

I just have the feeling a lot of Kaeris Players had in the second edition: You can just light everything up and make the battlefield burn, but you can not really take an advantage out of that.

In the end, Teddy killed Sonnia with his ....