hydranixx

11 hours ago, Freman said:

Well, I'm playing Hamelin at the moment and I always start with The Piper, The Plague, the Obedient Wretch, and a Stolen. Also 6-7 stones. It puts me on the path to my goal of five Rat Kings on the table by the end of the game (it hasn't happened yet, but I'm working towards it).

In Outcasts in general there's always a temptation to take a Librarian, and two Trappers are very handy, but I can't call them auto-takes.

I would hardly call Hamelin auto pick. Besides which my interest was purely on "non-master models and upgrades". Trappers are ever popular though, you're right on that front.

9 hours ago, daniello_s said:

In Outcasts it is dead easy to point out auto-picks: Johan and 2-3x Oathkeeper

To be honest, Johan seems to find his way to the 'almost auto pick' group even outside of Outcasts . Definitely a solid all rounder. 

8 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

It's a small meta but ressers seem to love Belles and Emissaries. Can't blame them, seem like solid models.

As a Ten Thunders player I have hard time imagining a list without one of Shenlong/Sensei Yu/Shadow Emissary. First two can push+slow and all three can push+fast. 1 AP for walk+1AP seems like a good deal no matter what model I support with that. Schemers like tossing more markers and beaters like doing more beatings. 

Speaking of beaters, I always take Recalled Training if I want something dead. 1ss discard for +flip on all flips until EoT. Between our beaters' native flurries/reactivates/experts and fast from above you can get a lot of mileage out of one turn of RT. For only 1ss it's hard to argue against it. Give it to a killy model and stuff just dies.

Another upgrade that might very well become an autopick is Death Contract 1ss/False Target 0ss from the new upgrade set. FT does nothing. DC: killer of this model must discard cards/ss or die. They are face down upgrades that don't count against upgrade limit. You could play some mind games with FT, but simply just give DC to a recalled training beater who you shove into enemy's face. I've only played a little with it but it seems very promising.

Haven't noticed other autopicks crop up in casual play

Agreed, both the Carrion & Shadow seem massively useful for their factions. I think Recalled Training belongs in the same category as Imbued Energies, Oathkeeper, Debt to the Guild etc. 

Always take them on your beaters, because they boost them substantially for a price well worth paying. 

5 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

Retribution's Eye: for 1 stone you ignore armor on all attacks and may discard the upgrade at the beginning of your turn to ignore Df and Wp triggers during your activations.

I sure there are others but I tend not to play ones I see as "common ones" for neverborn.

I often take a mature nephilim and Lust. I will sometimes take a stichtogether or Widow Weaver. I often skip Nekima and Doupleganger.

I feel Tooth has a good chance at becoming common.

I think you're one of only a handful. Almost every list seems to include 2-3 of Nekima and Doppleganger and very commonly Primordial Magic as well. Interesting to see at least one competent NB player eschews them.

Hi team,

Today I want to find out more about auto pick material in your corner of the globe. Specifically, which non-master models and upgrades are commonly considered to be top tier picks, and how might they influence the hiring process within their faction?

What's an auto pick? Typically, a model or upgrade that is such a bargain for its ss cost that you feel pressured to include them in your lists purely because they're excellent well rounded choices that kind of overshadow similar choices. You have to actively find compelling reasons to not hire them, rather than find reasons to hire them.

Here's two simplified examples I've noticed in my meta:

I've declared Guild and I'm up against (insert any faction here), so I think I'll start with 2 Austringers. I should probably grab Frank with Wade In too. I now have 29ss left to spend. Now, let's have a look at the schemes & strategy and pick my master.

I'm Arcanists, so I'm almost always going to be putting Seize the Day or Arcane Reservoir, or perhaps even both, on whichever Master I pick. Also, if I find space for 3x Imbued Energies, I'm taking 3x Imbued Energies, because, Imbued Energies.

What are the most common auto picks, or almost auto picks, in your meta?

16 hours ago, Morgy said:

game 2

Scheme: Interference

Deployment: Flank

Strategies: Convict Labor, Leave your Mark, Show of Force, Frame for Murder, Occupy their Turf

Im thinking Show of force and framed for murder. Ramos bubble to get show and framed on Howard

Mech rider to hold a quarter??

 

Frame for Murder on Howard is pretty good, a bit like the Viktoria of Blood Frame for Murder. They basically have to give you 2-3VP unless they have a permanent source of Paralyse for him. Good choice vs most crews.

Taking Show of Force when Interference is up can be a bit awkward. I'd suggest having one model that can score with 2 upgrades - perhaps Joss with the BET and IE/IP/PBF - so you aren't losing as much strat control by going for the scheme. A back up upgrade on Mech Rider is a good idea just in case you need to bring her in to ensure your points if they show up for Show of Force too.

16 hours ago, Morgy said:

 

game 3

Scheme: Stake a Claim

Deployment: Corner

Strategies: Convict Labor,  Show of Force, Take Prisoner, Covert Breakthrough, Search the Ruins

Show of force and search the ruins maybe? Take large arachnids to eat any schemes in the bubble instead of the mech rider?

Large Arachnids are good for denying many of the schemes in this pool while Mech Rider is good for scoring many of them. I'd try to keep both in. This isn't a pool that particularly needs killing power, so you could possibly drop Langston to afford those Large Arachnids. Brass Arachnid could still find a place because reactivate is worthwhile with the above choices. Tailor your schemes to your opponent's crew, I think they're all quite achievable.

16 hours ago, Morgy said:

game 4

Scheme: Reconnoiter

Deployment: Standard

Strategies: Convict Labor, Show of Force, Hunting Party, Detonate the Chargers, Inspection

Similar to the interference take the show of force and hunting party

Should work, but again, probably best to briefly reassess which to take once you see the enemy crew. If they show up with 1 easily protected minion, Hunting Party makes no sense.

16 hours ago, Morgy said:

Game 5 has me stumped not sure which to go. My pool of models available is Ramo, Joss, Howard. mech rider, 2 large arachnids, 2 soulstone miners, 9 arachnids, one swarm, a December acolyte, ice gamin, ice golem, Johan, brass arachnid.

game 5

Scheme: Squatters Rights

Deployment: Corner

Strategies: Convict Labor, Exhaust their Forces, Take Prisoner, Neutralise the Leader, Mark for Death

Ramos shouldn't have any issues with being Neutralised. Just keep him away from things that ignore Armour. Mass buffed spiders can handle Exhaust, Labour and securing the Squat markers, and they can probably secure you Take Prisoner if there's a good target for it since a lot of the action will be in the middle for those Squat Markers. One cheesy idea could be a ss miner left in reserve all game to secure Take Prisoner. They'll be hard pressed to deny it, though playing 3-4 turns down 6ss hurts.

Johan is really good for this strat in the sense that his 3" engagement reach means he can protect 2 markers at once, and push enemies away from them. Even if he dies there he can contribute to taking or faking Labour.

Especially in this round, don't be afraid to blow your own guys up. If your models are Exhausted, Marked for Death or you can see they're the Take Prisoner target, consider Uncontrolled Detonation or Magnetism or straight up attacking them to deny those VP.

49 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

@Mrbedlam @Adran

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Yeah, mobility may be an issue, but it is a baseline list; I think in scheme arrays that emphasize mobility, Ice Dancers and the Arcane Emissary (Ice Bridge) would be good options. Angelica per Mrbedlam's suggestion also seems like a good choice.

I'm pretty leery of the Ice Golem between that horrifying Df2 and relative paucity of wounds, even with Armor +2, and lack of mobility (even if Snow Storm can help it out a little); it might be worthwhile with Angelica. Either way, I can field it as necessary since I get the thing with Rasputina's box set.

Arcane Reservoir holds strong appeal; an extra card each turn is obviously quite valuable, particularly with Ice Gamin to pitch cards to. I strongly considered it, but ultimately leaned towards Seize the Day if only because Rasputina seems to benefit from winning Initiative in particular due to her Ice Walls and Paralyze (and Wendigo Companion activate for Devour follow up!), denying your opponent from getting that key activation or action set early in the turn; that it costs 1 SS less is a nice bonus. Might be worth trying in some lists though; I'll be sure to give it a shot.

Blessed of December looks good; I suppose the best way to run her would be via shapeshifting Myranda?

 

Also any particular lists you guys favour?

Some people bring a Metal Gamin to help the Ice Golem, boosting his Df to 6, at which point he is much tougher to shift. He can also throw it elsewhere if need be. I'm not sure if it's worth spending that 4ss on a babysitting Gamin to be honest.

You're right, Myranda is the way to go if you aim to bring in a 9ss beastie like the Blessed or the Cerberus, and you always want to give her Imbued Energies. You essentially get 4 free cards when she sacrifices herself to summon it, since she's 1ss cheaper than them. The only drawback is that your beast will be slow that turn.

You could instead opt to hire a Blessed with Imbued Energies of it's own to have a faster threat range from the get go, especially since they have Leap. Or hire both Myranda AND Blessed, wait till the Blessed goes down, then summon another.

47 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Signz me up! (For the Story Event)

Ditto.

Well said, Sordid Strumpet

! You're thinking one step ahead. Mind you, if you delve into reverse psychology and your opponent doesn't pick it up - as in, if you're against a simpleton such as myself - then it's all for naught! 

You're right that Ramos might suffer a bit in Hunting Party if he's feeding easy kills to your opponent, but he's surprisingly well suited to denying Hunting Party as well once your opponent declares it, with his (0) and (1) actions that turns a friendly minion into free movement or a bomb respectively, while removing the minion.

12 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Not knowing what the 5th scheme is doesn't help much, but I don't see how you can expect the scheme's that Morgy said they'd take. Ramos is a summoner - Exhaust their forces is great for summoners. As is convict labor. As an opponent, I wouldn't be at all confident that set up was chosen - or hunting party.

Having a summoner who makes lots of squishy minions is an issue with Hunting Party in the pool, though so it might be worth going easy on the summoning with that list.

You're probably right, most people would be cautious of Exhaust or Labour. Summons being unable to interact when they arrive, yet able to concede Hunting Party VP, puts me off such schemes a little, but yeah, Ramos could definitely do it.

Mech Rider automatically validates Set Up all by itself. Anyone familiar with it's trigger knows how easy it is for her so would be very anxious about Set Up, while having 3 relatively hitty enforcers/henchmen makes Hunting Party a very real danger. When I see that list, those are the schemes that basically earn themselves while killing things.

But that is only my perspective, who knows how your opponent will see it.

1 hour ago, Morgy said:

setup, setup

wut

1 hour ago, Morgy said:

Im thinking about this list to take hunting party and setup

Ramos- Field Generator and underpressure. 5SS

Brass arachnid

Joss with bleeding edge tech

Howard with imbued energies

Mechanical rider

Electric creation

I think your crew would handle your schemes really well, in a vacuum, but your opponent will know which schemes you picked immediately and will plan around that.

My recommendation would be to consider models that can handle other schemes, even if it's just to be capable of faking them. It's a bit obvious that you'll pick Hunting Party & Set Up, since you literally can't do Public Demo, and you'd probably struggle with Exhaust Their Forces.

Honestly, I'd consider dropping Joss and putting his Bleeding Edge Tech on Ramos, and hiring a Large Steam Arachnid and another cheap minion if possible. The LSA has creative salvage just like Joss, so you're not losing out on your scrap marker generation. This way you can take or fake Public Demo, and the LSA can mitigate Set Up/Convict Labour if your opponent takes it.

Having extra minions isn't as risky with these schemes in your list as it might be in others; your opponent is probably going to be taking HP automatically once he sees you have Ramos and Mech Rider anyway. The potential of you taking Public Demo and getting 2-3VP instantly can help to keep their enforcers and henchmen honest. 

What do you reckon?

Is that right? I'm even more impressed with them now. I have yet to try them, have you had any experience using them?

I'll edit my post, cheers for letting me know

Yes.

At bare minimum, he's another cheap activation so can help ensure Langston gets to go later on in the early game, but if the stars align he's essentially doubling Langston's influence, for 1/3 of his price tag. 

It's also worth noting that Ramos needs 11+ for his triple spider summon, so a 10, even a 10, is usually unwanted by Ramos (if you're only going for 2 spiders, any 8+ card will do). That Brass Arachnid will happily make use of any unwanted 10's you have, especially if its 10.

You can use his other action to add the  to any 10+ card, but remember that if its a 10+, it's probably worth holding onto it for Langston himself.

4 hours ago, gozer said:

Since Nix can take Hounds with the Hollow upgrade, I'm wanting to  build a crew around him with a horde of Canine Remains. However, I'm not sure what other models would capitalize on the inherent synergy of wp/df debuffing, model/ap overwhelm, sustainability and blight. Here are some additions I'm considering.

Montressor: Giving out -1 wp, multiple auras and pulse duels for Nix's self-healing and keeping things close enough for the canines to swarm makes Monty seem like a must have for this combo.

Jack Daw: Last Whisper would come in handy by making sure the horde of canines are dropping schemes when they inevitably die. Drowning Injustice works well with Drink Spirit while Firing Squad Injustice will make all of those canine pings that much more painful.

Hannah: With Nix making everything around him immune to blasts, Hannah could drop damage indiscriminately. She could also help Nix out with Blight Bombs.

Other than these three I'm at a loss as to where to go with this crew concept. I know it's obvious that Nix himself gets a lot of value out of Hamelin and his rats, but I'm looking at making the Hound/Nix interaction the star of this particular crew. Thoughts?

The first thing that leaps out at me is that with Hollow Nix you've unlocked all Hounds, not just Canine Remains, so have a glance at Guild Hounds and Corrupted Hounds too. If you're keen to keep to theme (Nix leading a pack of feral dogs), you might like to invest very heavily into raw Hound numbers, with only a few surplus, supporting models. 

Guild Hounds are very good when you're flooding the board with other Hounds, since that unlocks their ability to interact. They're especially appealing since 1ss cheaper than the other options and charge as a (1) action if the target is near a scheme marker. Since you're considering free scheme marker placement with Last Whisper this gets pretty silly when you're already likely out activating and out outmaneuvering your opponent. They also are a good way to spend your mid range  for their Critical Strike to dent things far harder than their 3ss price range would lead you to believe. 

Corrupted Hounds are relatively new, so I'm not sure how much experience people have with them. One thing that they do get is bonuses to their attacks when they're made out of activation. Essentially, they love Obey-type actions, which Hamelin or Jack Daw can provide you with.

An example core might be 3 Canine Remains & 4 Guild Hounds, which only costs 24ss, perhaps with 1 or 2 Corrupted Hounds if you are playing a master that uses Obey effects. This gives you plenty of room for support models.

I agree with Nukemouse; if you want to work invest heavily into Canine Remains, it would be nice to have least one or two sources of providing poison to get those (1) action charges going, and something that throws out a lot of simple duels to benefit from the debuffs that the Remains provide. 

Agreed, and you also want to have Imbued Energies on him 95% of the time to make his threat range higher. Simply burning IE to double walk + charge something you need to remove is what makes him so scary. I almost always have Angelica in lists that run Langston, and she essentially gives yet another 5" movement.

With Ramos, who you seem to play and enjoy, you should have no trouble out activating your opponent, or at the very least, getting roughly even in activation count. Have Langston activate last in the first turn to react to how your opponent played, ideally killing something vital or eating soulstones with his trigger, then activate him early the following round to get some more value out him before he's inevitably focused down.

Always keep an eye on how many  you have in hand. He's 13ss investment (assuming IE) , so it's worth saving almost every single good  purely for Langston to get his Decapitate trigger. 

8 hours ago, Boomstick24 said:

Kaeris jumped out at me right away for the man's day in court.

Burning isn't damage, so despite people in his courtroom suddenly combusting, the judge won't freak out, and while burning is benerally easier to deal with than damage, in this scenario if the opponent is using AP to put themselves out, they aren't litigating or swaying the judge. Plus, Kaeris has a ton of board control she can do with her Blinding Flame upgrade.

I think you could take either limited on her since the pyre markers will limit their access to the judge while giving you more access to non-attack action damage via hazardous terrain. But personally I'm planning on taking grab & drop to put down a bunch of free, uncaring-about-4"-distances markers near the judge in a hurry, and also bring Willie for his action to blow up scheme markers when enemies come close. Add in the effigy for removing Fees and some ice dancers for their ice path markers to keep the opposing models sliding away from the judge and I'm guessing a lot of players will attack first put of frustration. 

Other thought I had is to put Open Current on Joss and run him up near the center to keep them at - flips on all Ca actions, like litigate and approach the bench. For bonus points put in an oxford mage with Blood Ward (I believe) to keep Joss (with warding runes) immune to enemy conditions.

All this and the thing I keep laughing about is the courtroom will A] be frosted over, B] be on fire, C] have dynamite flying through the air, and D] contain a large man with an axe-shaped Tesla coil, and the Judge is fine with it. But anybody punches someone in the face and he freaks out.

Laughter ensues.

I like it! I think I will definitely consider the Kaeris option depending on who I'm up against. I've always liked throwing people around with Blinding Flame.

I presume you're referring to Bleeding Edge Tech, rather than Open Current though? Open Current forces a Df within 8" I think, which if failed puts remaining Df duels on a - flip for the turn, while Bleeding Edge Tech simply puts all Ca actions within 3" on a - flip. Seems like anyone holding Bleeding Edge could be valuable, though yeah, Joss would be the most survivable so he'd be best suited to chilling out near the judge with it.

Having more closely read the strategy, I'm thinking that Mei Feng could be pretty disgusting at it as well; I could literally get her by the Judge on turn 1 with Porkchop helping her move, and sway him in preparation for turn 2. Vent Steam multiple times each subsequent round, essentially denying any Lures, most placement tricks, movement tricks, conditions as well as Litigate or Approach the Bench. It allows her to sit camping almost the entire 50mm base the Judge is on each round, with him already swayed my way with that 3" engagement range. I'd probably post another model on the far side of the Judge to prevent interactions on the flank where Mei can't stop them; this is where Joss with BET comes in.

The only weakness would be against someone with Dont Mind Me. I would probably bring The Firestarter and Emberling to burn any Dont Mind Me models down.

I'm excited to assemble (thank cthulhu for magnets) and paint these lovely creations when they arrive in the mail, but I'm a little uncertain of when to actually hire them as I have no experience with them as of yet. 

What scheme/strategies do you see that make you want to hire them? 

Are there any instances where you might hire only one of the Coryphee?

7 minutes ago, Valgaav said:

Imbued Protection

Just a heads up, this is a 2ss upgrade.

Recalled Training is definitely strong, but there are opportunities for the opponent to outplay you. Most models that buy it already have a target painted on themselves, and if you kill them quickly it's worthless. Compare that to A Debt to the Guild/Oathkeeper/ Imbued Energies, where even though their model might die, the player is rewarded.

Recalled Training is a little more of a risky investment than those equivalents, but the reward for timing and positioning the carrier correctly can be so devastating that it justifies the upgrade being an auto include for almost everyone who can buy it. 

I started with Kaeris as well, and it's a fun crew to learn the game with.

A few things to note, her box set has one of the lowest ss cost in the game: only 21ss before upgrades. You get a fantastic scheme running henchman, a few decent minions, a fairly meh totem, and everything shoots in one form or another. However, nothing in the box packs much of a punch, which you'll want to address if you're able.

I would therefore recommend adding something hitty, and the Rail Golem, as suggested above, is a good option. It thrives when you can add burning to it, which is why it's popular with Kaeris. It also performs nicely with Mei Feng and Ramos if you've ever considered you might like to try them. 

I would also second the suggestion of acquiring Gunsmiths. They're actively rewarded when your targets being on fire, and Kaeris and co are more than happy to oblige them in this regard. They're also very good with Ironsides, or so I hear. So if you had ever thought of playing Ironsides, then Gunsmiths become an even more attractive option. 

Finally, I can't talk of Kaeris without the obligatory mention of Malifaux Raptors. They're excellent models for all Arcanist masters, but they do even more work for Marcus and Kaeris. With one of her upgrades, you light them on fire and then they provide an extremely long range scheme marker delivery service, second to none in the game.

You should also consider Arcane Emissary, Johan & Malifaux Child (Outcast mercernaries) once you've established and played a few games.

Oh, and yeah, welcome aboard! A lot of us came from Games Workshop backgrounds. It's a lot cheaper to play competitive Malifaux than game systems that GW runs. The fact that Wyrd actually listens to its player base is a breath of fresh air from the sorry state of affairs that is 40K and Age of Sigmar. 

1 hour ago, Tawg said:

Yeah, I thought it was weak as well, but many models gain strength by synergy (Brilliance or any Bakuto interactions potentially), so I wasn't terribly offended.  His base stats are at least on par, and I wanted the Wakizashi to be strictly worse than the Dai Katana on the Ronin cards because well, Wakizashi are smaller swords essentially.  Of course, granting the Wakizashi was motivated by the fact that early "yakuza" had been granted the "honor" of wielding short blades in a time when only Samurai had them, and having a full length blade demanded respect.  The negative tied to that was really just a flavorful turn to go with the Yubitsume, since that really was a focal point for the concept;  Originally it was Ml 6, and Quick Hand was Ca 5, but I matched them to their respective defenses (Df // Wp respectively).  The Defense I didn't want too over the top, 5 is decent, and the higher Wp was to represent that, despite being a criminal element, the Yakuza display strength of will in their actions, whether it be supporting the needy during disasters or in their strict codes of honor.

But I certainly agree it was a weaker model to start off with.

That was unintended, and I would try to change that in retrospect.  However I am in favor of elegant design, and at a certain point the phrasing becomes cumbersome, so I might decide to rework that Ability all together if I didn't think it flowed well enough.  For instance, the "Within 9" and "Within 3" both could be confused for within X" of the target, or the model?  So I could see that being something to work around.  Although I will say that the Range was 9", the distance to discard a token 8" and the distance to place a token 3" to repeat the 9-8-3 theme subtly.  It's the only reason I used an odd number for a range in the first place

I wouldn't favor a TN though for that Ability.  If anything I think a targeting restriction might be the quickest method of clearing up that Action, just say "Target an enemy model." or something similar at the start.

Honestly I did consider it, because I also felt like the front of the card was a bit lacking.  But within the domain of the ideas I had floating around, the ones I wanted to convey were more "Action" oriented, though certainly he could benefit from alternative front options.  Honestly, rather than a trigger, Wheedle would make a good Ability, simply allowing him to remove Scheme Markers after successfully resolving any duel, and then he could also "Force product" onto victims while cutting them with his sword if he had set it up.  I wouldn't mind that at all actually.

I agree, and I fully get why you've made his attack underwhelming. As I say, I really like the synergy between loss of wounds and his attack action, and it's perfectly fine if the rest of the card supplements him. I too prefer rules that are more elegantly and clearly worded. My suggestion was not a final wording, just pointing you in the right intention.

I feel like there does need at least one extra 'something' on the front, even if it's at the cost of his stats a little. I do like the idea you've pondered - Wheedle being an automatic ability rather than a trigger to his spell. You could tinker with Wheedle's specifics a little bit until you're happy with it's balance, but I think it definitely has a place as an ability.

1 hour ago, Tawg said:

Yeah, I was on the fence with this as well.  6 cards seems very powerful, and while 9 and 8 are not face cards, 9 and 8 are enough to stop attacks often enough, and while drawing 6 will never be straight up bad (If they're all low cards, at least they're not being flipped!), I thought 4 was too little, and I.. didn't like the number 5 lol.  I'd have to play a game or two to see how often he was able to utilize this Ability, but I agree it's potentially his most powerful Action.  It's like a supped up Mulligan from Lynch, but with specific requirements.  I also, DID, specifically make this Action a reveal rather than discard up-front, because of my consideration of Obey, for the record   I'd be willing to at least try this guy at draw 6 before crying wolf though, if I were making this model   I personally think hand pressure (And requiring exactly 3 cards in hand) are enough to stymie it's abuse.  Although it is also not good if it's too powerful when it does go off, so it may well be as you say, and need a bit of changing

Maybe I'm thinking too highly of it, but I genuinely believe that the current iteration of the 0 seems like it's very, very powerful. Oppressively powerful. Yes, the criteria to meet is fairly demanding, but what it does is instantly make any hand containing 2 or 3 of those cards a really good hand, regardless of the rest of the cards in it, especially since you have the option of stoning for more cards, Stitched's Game of Chance, Lynch's Mulligan etc or worst comes to worst, holding onto two of those cards for next turn to fish for the third.

If you do have those 3 winning numbers, which I don't believe is nearly as rare as one might think with the card manipulation I mentioned above, you can play aggressively early in the turn with your good card(s) of 10's or higher to win important duels and meet TNs, while holding onto your other cards for your opponent's discard effects if they have any. If they don't have any, it's even better for you as you get to happily cheat against your opponent duels/rapid fire/flurry/defensive stance/implacable assault etc with your non 9/8/3 cards to eat your hand down to exactly those 3 cards and then cash them in for a brand new hand. Models with Accomplice would be really awesome with this guy. Imagine a hand with 9,8,6,3,2,1. That's a fantastic hand if you're running something with Accomplice (effigy?) and the Shatei and you can easily perform meaningless duels/defence stance to ensure you're getting those 3 winning numbers, then have Shatei activate and secure you a brand new hand.

You could try it at 6 cards, but I think it's still over the top. If you get it even once in 10 games, your opponent will turn sour very quickly. If you get it off, you basically control duels for the rest of that turn, and can even potentially build a control hand to do it against next turn. If you managed to successfully cast it twice per game, I don't see how you'd lose that game, to be honest.

I would be more inclined to have it count as a (1) action, stipulating that it can only ever be used once per turn, starting with a base draw of 3 or maybe 4 cards, with 1 additional card added if you meet some type of suit criteria and maybe 1 additional card added by electing to lose 1 wound on the model/sacrifice a scheme marker/discard a card once the action is complete etc.

1 hour ago, Tawg said:

I really wish these forums had more "Build your own" style threads or.. a section.  Playing games is definitively fun, but I also quite enjoy the creation aspect as well, and coming up with neat ideas is certainly a blast.

I know right? It really appeals to me as well. I look forward to any other designs you might have come up with

17 hours ago, Tawg said:

Shatei    5 Soulstones

Minion, Living

Darkened, Bakuto

Df 5  Wp 6  Wds 6  Wk 5  Cg 7  Ht 2

Yubitsume - When an enemy model in 8 takes an Action which discards a Scheme Marker friendly to this model, this model suffers 1 damage.

 

(1) Wakizashi (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: 1" ):  Target suffers 2/2/3 damage.  If this model has 3 Wds or less, this Attack receives .

    Practiced Precision:  This Attack ignores Armor.

(1) Quick Hand (Ca 6 / Rst: Wp / Rg: 8"):  The winner of this duel may discard an opposing Scheme Marker within 9" or place a friendly Scheme Marker within 3".

   Wheedle:  After succeeding, this model may remove a friendly Scheme Marker within 3".  If it does, the target gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Under the Influence:  This model has the Brilliance Characteristic."

 

(0) Ya-ku-za:  You may reveal your hand.  If you reveal exactly an 8, 9 and 3, discard your hand and draw six cards.

I'm a fan; very flavourful and well explained. I think you've done a good job capturing how some of the elements within the group interact with one another. I really like the 'losing fingers for failure' idea haha.

One qualm I do have is that the model seems a little too weak for his 5ss investment*. I understand that he hinders himself to stay true to the real deal and to balance out his value in manipulation, but I think he's hindering himself too much, or perhaps not getting enough quite enough reward for the risk he takes.

Quick Hand could cost you the game. That's a risk you take with gambling, and that's fine with this subtheme. But with enemies having access to things like Obey about... That's really risky and it makes me consider a more reliable or cheaper scheme runner instead.

*If you intended that he can cast Quick Hand on friendly models, then this guy goes from "meh" to "wow, you have my attention now". I'd humbly suggest that Quick Hand include a stipulation in it such as "The winner of the duel may discard a scheme marker friendly to the loser of the duel", so that you can't obnoxiously target your own models to snipe enemy scheme markers, or failing that, if you intended that you can indeed machine gun down their scheme markers by dueling your own models, reduce the range or give it a TN so that it isn't so easy to do.

Perhaps you might consider giving him another ability on the front of his card; there's very few models that have only 1 ability on the front. I could see some kind of mini Chatty aura (3" maybe) helping him to deny schemes, without being over the top. You could also opt for Ruthless. I think Ruthless would fit him nicely as well, again without being over the top.

For his 0, I feel like more card manipulation is good and thematic, but the idea of trading 3 cards for 6, could prove much too powerful. None of those cards are severes, so that trade is almost always going to be worth it. I would honestly auto include this guy and consider stoning every turn to unlock that mid turn new hand. Nasty.

Perhaps, trade the 8/9/3 for 3 cards, with the potential for a 4th card based on the suits present, rather than 6 cards outright. Perhaps if all 3 cards are different suits from each other, you get the 4th card, etc. That's still an attractive option, but at least this way you're not doubling your control hand for free.

Just some food for thought. I really like the concept you've developed!

Agreed, more Academic ties are needed. I'm kinda warming to the idea that Guild won him briefly, to add this potential Academic feel to him, but now we must get him back. If we secure him, depending on the remaining encounters, he could very well get some Beast synergies & some Academic synergies. 

I'll try get a game in this week. Sadly, I do not have Ironsides or Sandeep which you mention might be adept in this one. Any ideas in this strategy for Kaeris/Mei/Ramos?

3 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

The consumption of scheme markers is amazing. I'm actually surprised you haven't at least tried them in a Grab and Drop Kaeris list, since that can drop scheme markers all over the place. I use them in many crews for the explicit purpose of eating scheme markers in order to deny scoring and getting a full round of fully focused hitting. They are minions, so Bleeding Edge Tech helps them recover if they haven't been killed outright.

It can work sometimes, but I'm not sure it's something you should focus too heavily on. It costs you resources to get those markers. Even with Kaeris, you're spending AP in one way or another, or a valuable 0 action, to get those 'free' scheme markers. 

Most players have a very purposeful goal with their scheme markers. When I pick a scheme requiring them, or want to fake a scheme requiring them, I aim to dedicate exactly enough AP to get the marker(s) down where I need it, no more, and then focus elsewhere. This isn't true for every player, but I think it's fairly consistent. 

So in a marker heavy scheme pool, being able to leech extra AP from your opponent in order for them to secure VP, or outright deny VP, are both awesome. That's where this 6ss metal bug really shines.

But eating your own markers can be a trap. If you're playing Colette, then sure go right ahead, since everyone gets to place markers as a 0 so it's not costing you much. But everyone else is spending resources / managing positioning to achieve it. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not.

5 hours ago, Frozen Feet said:

So what models do i have to add, for a generalist 50SS Game??

.....and is anybody out there playin Large Arachnids??.. and when, because of what??..

There's actually a few different build paths that Ramos can work with. Almost all his builds will want a cheap construct to die on turn for your scrap engine - and this is where Large Arachnids are useful.

They produce 1 extra scrap on successful kills, so if you can get one to kill a Steam Arachnid or Mobile Toolkit, you have enough scrap for two turns worth of summoning - remember Ramos summons only once per activation and requires a scrap marker for it.

They're also good if there's scheme markers around as they're able to eat them for bonuses. 

5 hours ago, angyi said:

In my experience Angelica is solid gold in most M&SU crews. In every M&SU crew, actually, that you don't build with a very specific goal.

Honestly, she can find a place even in some of those very specific goal builds. I've been contemplating a pretty disgusting build where I slingshot highly buffed, reactivating Coryphee at the opponent near the end of turn of turn one then secure initiative on turn two (Seize the Day is broken) and go to town. Angelica is very helpful in assuring this build works.

I agree with you, and thoroughly recommend Angelica; in almost all Arcanist builds she has a place if the schemes agree. 

Though I risk tempting you to consider Thunders even further... I hear really good things about Mei in Thunders. The Toshiro + Mechanised Porkchop summoning engine is a tonne of fun.

Whichever faction you play her in, Mei likes her Foundry models and she gets them no matter what - for me that's Mechanised Porkchop and 1 or 2 Rail Workers. 

I'm almost finished my take on Ramos, here's the update:

That is true. To be fair, not all enemies have triggers, so it's not always a huge loss, plus we also have the The Mind Among The Senses that Sandeep or another model can use to pull Students up the board or pull something they want to Flurry into closer to them. 

Well, yes, they're an acquired taste as far as aethetics go, especially when you're used to Arcanist metal and robes. I would convert my own trio of students if I were to play them frequently. I already have a heavily kit-bashed Valedictorian from some 40k parts ready to go for Mr Desai once his box is released.

In terms of actual gameplay, the Students are usually terrible, unaffordable hires, because most Resser masters can't fix their mobility issues, and want expensive support pieces (Mortimer, Phillip, Emissary etc) to help them do their summoning (coincidentally, that summoning might well include summoning Students - Nicodem/Molly)

But with Sandeep... he significantly boosts their mobility, give them extra spells to work so they're not as one dimensional, and each of them make great use of either surplus suits for their attack triggers. His mechanic to replenish cards when Academics discard them (Flurry) is another way of getting more value from each individual card. 

I really want to see how they go with him. I can't help but feel like the three of them could each be very interesting counter picks to an opponent's declared factions. I'd love to hear about any experiences Sandeep players have had with them.