Kharnage

Isn't The Carver a Woe? I'm hesitant to be too excited. 

Texas Triumvirate vs Team Insomnia

Andre Demings (Neverborn Zoraida) vs Stephen Morris (Resser Von Schtook) 8-3
Bryan Bauer (Resser Von Schtook) vs Hayden Prujean (Outcast Zipp) 7 - 5
Nick Westbrook (Ten Thunders McCabe) vs Brendan Shipman (Ten Thunders Mei Feng) 4 - 5

Good games, lads 

40 minutes ago, Ogid said:

A list with less models and those 4 upgrades (I think I saw that pattern before somewhere XD)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think a big part of being Neverborn is double-ancient-pact builds! We give up quite a bit in terms of resource generation and defensive mechanics, and our reward is all-but-guaranteeing first activation, as long as we have that upgrade twice and a decently low model count. Lower cost models are for other factions; we don't have things like necropunks or soulstone miners, and frankly spending stones on a model that can be taken out by a single non-rj damage flip out of a 3/4/6 (looking at you, sorrows, bloodwretches, dolls, changelings, wisps, hounds, etc.) is a fool's choice, IMO. This is anecdotal, but I can't in my memory name a game in which a competently played crew wins the center scrum but loses the game to the grit and determination of low cost squishball models focusing on schemes. Scheme runners win games to be sure, but those that do are respectably tanky, like Necropunks, Desper, First Mate, Dawn Serpent, etc.

This brings me to a personal rant of mine; I see Wicked Dolls getting picks in all sorts of lists on here and I cannot fathom how they accomplish anything, other than watering down our chances of taking the first activation in a Turn. I certainly haven't played into any Wicked Doll comps, and if someone wants to post up for a game on Vassal to whip me with Wicked Dolls, please hit me up. 

12 hours ago, Ogid said:

How do you minimice his dissadvantages and in which pools do you take him.

I choose him nominally when I really want universal unimpeded, which is more of a map concern. And Neverborn Marcus has to let go of double-cat builds and accept that his true minions are the Order Initiates. By choosing Order Initiates, you solve many problems; you don't have to spend turn 1 scrambling to toss upgrades out; they already have at least 1, and they don't feel bad about ditching all their upgrades for + flips and suits, because they can just bonus action gain another one back at the end of their turn. This also means you provoke a lot more carefree card draw with Primal Domain. Additionally, they have a solid synergy with Inhuman Reflexes; they can charge through a target for 1 point with Blade Rush, and another 1 point with Stampede, and you've dealt 2 damage ignoring armor, incorporeal, black blood, etc. and you haven't even flipped a card yet. You can even order them to charge while engaged now. Sure, they lose an HP with stampede, but they have Tear Off a Bite (ditch upgrade if necessary!), Myranda, or Marcus's heal trigger to keep them healthy. That being said, they're not immortal, and they will die, but choosing which upgrade (Armor? Disguised and Stealth? Butterfly Jump?) will save them the most pain at the end of each activation is key to making them survive as long as possible.
As for condition removal, just, hire Serena. Take the Eldritch Magic upgrade if Serena hurts your pride, but healing/removal combo with a splash of armor pen is just a dream boat for the otherwise condition removal and pen hungry Chimera crew. 
I still take a cat. They're fantastic side board scheme runners and function relatively well without Marcus glued to their junk. 
My response comes with caveats; I haven't tried to plumb the depths of Neverborn's beast repertoire yet, so I can't say what benefits in terms of model choice Neverborn Marcus has. I do know that having a relatively low model count with a pair of Ancient Pacts and Accomplice means that Marcus can use a new turn to absolutely change how a fight is going before the foe has a chance to respond, a unique advantage to the purple side of life. I like him a lot for Symbols of Authority and Corrupted Leylines. Pools with Assassinate in them are also delightful; much effort has been wasted by ditched attacks to a Jackalope. Vendetta works well for a Marcus crew, because of the high offensive potential of his keyword.
He loathes terrifying, Von Schtook's Academic Superiority aura, and armor spam, so avoid those matchups where possible; don't pick him into Ressers or fighty pools with Arcanists/Guild (to avoid Hoffman). It might be instinct to avoid Jack Daw, but Jack actually hates Inhuman Reflexes Order Initiates, since they'll plink him to death whether they pass terror duels or not. The only real "total shut out" games are Schtook though. He takes Marcus's whole gimmick and tosses it into a trash can. 

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I'm curious, how is the faction is doing in GG1 so far? With all the craziness in the world these days I've been quite disconected from Malifaux.

Hi everyone btw!

Hi there!

I would say Neverborn come out quite strong, overall. Being one of the 4 rider factions, we have access to a high mobility model capable of running Corrupted Leylines, the most "totally changes how crews approach a game to win" strategy, solo. Additionally, Zoraida remaining the Obey Overlord means that she's really good at denying the same strategy. Being a squishball isn't as cool these days with Public Enemies, so Pandora and Nekima kind of got shelved, but Titania and friends can rule a battlefield. With plenty of movement shenanigans, straight up damage, and a versatile Don't Mind Me model, navigating a melee to score Recover Evidence is also quite doable for Neverborn. I'll not claim to know what Lucius is good at or how he fares overall, he's lost when I play with or against him. Marcus has done okay the few times I've played him in Neverborn, but still overall find his Arcanist version to be superior. We have plenty of quick movers who can play aggressively to run Symbols of Authority throughout the faction, the most lacking being I would argue Pandora.
As for schemes, not having False Claim in faction hurts us less than it did in GG0, with more of a focus on going far and wide with Spread Them Out and Runic Binding, or winning a center scrum, like Leave Your Mark or Claim Jump. 
Overall, I don't know if I would go so far as to qualify Neverborn as the most competitive faction, since that should basically go Von Schtook Ressers IMO, but we're at the least in the running. 
I hope this was at least moderately useful!

So we've had some time to chew on this new crew available to us, and while I've seen a lot of spooky looking theorycraft, once the "bury your whole family" Thoon builds were fixed in beta, I haven't heard of anyone doing well with the big bois. To the contrary, savage has been donkey-stomped the like two times I've seen them on the table months ago, and the more telling evidence IMO, while I've seen Neverborn players in the vassal community, I haven't seen anyone reach for Euripides in quite a while. 
However, I like their overall flavor, Old Ways seems cool, and as fellow brutal natives of Malifaux, Savage sings to my Nephilim roots. So where are you, successful Euripides players? What builds do you take? What do you fear? What are important takeaways from games you've had? 

Having branched out from the glory days of GG0 Nekima, I've had some success with Titania and Zoraida, since they both can bring so much to the table. I have noticed however, regardless of which non-Nekima master I pick, that it's difficult for me to leave the list building phase without Rider and Serena, especially in a strategy pool that overall seems more survival and mobility focused than the previous iteration. There's never a place where having the highly mobile, only good ruthless model in faction (Sorry, Carver) and targeted healing / condition removal with a splash of armor pen on a very tanky model isn't pretty useful. Marcus is about the only other master I could justify not taking those on, because of his inherent mobility and access to heals (Much like Nekima). 
My concern by bringing this up is that people will call for Serena and Rider nerfs (indeed, they were both initially nerfed in the GG1 beta) but in comparison to Arcanists, where nerfing their versatile models might mean they play with their own pretty effective models, Neverborn without their versatiles are kinda sad.

But I wonder if I'm alone in this thought, and wanted to get the opinions of others before mulling it over for too long. How is the state of our non-versatile list comps, in your opinion? 

On 7/16/2020 at 7:55 AM, nahjor said:

How is it a significant nerf if it's an ability you didn't use in the first place? 😜

I'm not lamenting her loss of power, but the loss of principle. The clear indication is they went out of their way to shoot themselves in the foot, just so Nekima could be *slightly* less cool. 

1 hour ago, touchdown said:

I hope we get a 2nd clarification for "another model" on action triggers

Undo the dirty that was done to my girl Nekima! She didn't deserve it!
You solo-list ONE little notable tournament and then your master quakes in fear as the dev team appears behind her and whispers sensually "It's nerf or nothing"
Inhuman Reflexes I could see being called for, but Enraged by Insolence? Really? I can't even remember the last time I used the ability, much less to great, oppressive game effect. 

1. Yes. They're not impassible, and if a 40mm+ model is standing on top of it, she is unable to make base contact to unbury. 
2. He can. "Created Markers cannot be put into base contact with any models except for the model creating them. Impassible Markers cannot be Created in such a way that their base overlaps the base of the model creating them." Since McTavish's swampscreen is not Impassible, the clear negative case of the second sentence is that his base can overlap the marker. 
3. No. Assuming you mean after the pass token generation step at the beginning of each turn, you do not get pass tokens for dead models to make up for lost activations. The only time the rules of the game (as opposed to models that just expressly generate tokens) generate pass tokens is during summoning, and after initiative is flipped. This means killing unactivated models gives the aggressor an activation advantage over their opponent, and is an important part of a lot of strategies. 

Zoraida obeys a mounted guard to attack a riflemen. 
For the same reason that you can't argue the riflemen *couldn't* just relent on the incoming attack to guarantee double neg accuracy mod, is the same reason you can't argue walks aren't your own power; the obey changes the controller and chooser of the action, but not the action's source or allegiance. 

Texas Triumvirate (USA Team #3, I think?)

Andre Demings - Neverborn

Bryan Bauer - Ressers

Nick Westbrook - Ten Thunders

16 hours ago, Adran said:

So whilst Wicked tells us to resolve the trigger, the core rules tell us that further actions from the trigger won't start until the end of the current action.  I don't think anything in the Wicked rules suggest it would override this rule.

So what to your estimation is the point of the "including triggers" phrase at all? What changes where people would be otherwise confused?

On 9/28/2019 at 6:10 PM, DumbLuck said:

I stand corrected, foiled by the wicked rules.  So, sure it could work rules wise, but you won't be in control of the target model for the onslaught attack, as the first attack/disengage would have been fully resolved.  The opposing player would get to flip and cheat for the trigger attack, but If you're using Zorida and you have just enough cards to pull it off and you can replenish your hand after the activation, then it might be worth it.  But you're looking at 3 or 4 cards, if you manage to cheat the damage, for one AP, that leaves you pretty empty handed for the other 2 AP and you're probably going to want to save some of those for her other Obeys and an ensorcel trigger .  Unless you use her bonus action in the middle of her activation, but then you're giving your opponent a significant card advantage to make it happen again.  I personally am not seeing the benefit of it, but there could be some odd niche application for it.  

Wicked states that you resolve the attack, including triggers, before the model disengages. Does that not mean you wouldn't stand still until her Onslaught attack is done?

2 minutes ago, 74legion said:

About PANDORA. I was expecting something positive for her, but she only had her defenses cut. I have to suffer playing for her because I thought that the Nephilim and someone aggressively hurting? And it was not possible to make an upgrade for the Nephilim only, and the rest of the change is reasonable. Stealth on Samurai (shooting with 12 + flip) game does not ruin everything in the BALANCE, and IR on models of our faction breaks the balance?

The problem is that Inhuman Reflexes previously as a defense actively interrupts what the foe is doing with no stopping the ability from happening, so it is the most annoying defense to deal with, so it stuck out as "MAN I HATE THIS DEFENSIVE ABILITY" so it got the first swing. 

9 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Also FWIW, around September there was a discusion about that ability in the NVB forum were the meaning of "Another" was discussed.

Yuh, I was there. I of course, foolishly stated that My Loyal Servant was a precedent for why "another" is "other than the model we were just talking about" rather than "other than the acting model."
But with
"No. “Another” always refers to “not the model from which this text is written” except in those instances where the model in which “Another” is written would not always be a legal subject of the sentence, such as “Another Scrap Marker”, or “Another enemy model”. In such cases, “Another” will never refer to the previous legal subject."

It's not just "could go either way" interpretable, they cleanly shot their own foot off. It wasn't "another, in this instance, means not Nekima" it was "another ALWAYS refers to". So, enjoy your double-ricochet damage flips while you can! 

36 minutes ago, touchdown said:

In Von Schill's Load Up, his My Loyal Servant trigger says "another model" followed by "other than this model". Why would it need that if another model already means that?

 

I feel that it's obvious that the ruling on Enraged by Insolence was a ham-fisted attempt at nerfing Nekima by not letting Nekima herself get free swings, and their blanket "another means not the acting model" interpretation has backfired immensely. Obviously Enraged by Insolence meant another nephilim that isn't the one dying, My Loyal Servant and Ricochet being great examples of how they clearly originally defined "another". 

53 minutes ago, Ogid said:

For example, "My loyal servant" may now heal the target (which means Sun Quiang can heal twice the target if it gets the trigger), but the worst offender found by now is Ricochet (spotted by @Thatguy in this tread), that thanks to that FAQ may now damage the target twice.

Well, if they'd like to revert this ruling so that my girl can get mad when her tots die, I'd be all for it. As is, it's my favorite "look what you monsters did" from the FAQ.

10 minutes ago, zavros said:

Is the 2nd model interacting with the lodestone model able to toss the lodestone to itself?

As per my favorite FAQ, no. Using "Does Enraged by Insolence give Nekima attacks, answer, no because it says 'another' friendly nephilim" you cannot interact to hand the lodestone to yourself, because the lodestone must go to "another" friendly model. 

What if I have an armored incorporeal model taking a shockwave that deals 2 damage? Does he still flip?

58 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Putting her damage aside, she is the best Nephilim master for a "growing list" thanks to her totem generating corpses and her being able to "force feed" corpses. And she is quite fast and can fly, which gives her the upper hand scheming and in maps with lots of terrain.

Growth lists and spending master AP to get half of a growth effect, assuming you can hit the trigger on Nekima, after assuming you hit the mask Trigger on Hayreddin/Shamans sufficiently, is super suboptimal. Your pinnacle achievement even if suits were called as you go, was 2 AP spent - not including Blood Sacrifice triggers - to increase a model's value by at a maximum, 4. Not even the whole model, you get a health-of-previous-model mature. Ulix spends the same AP suitlessly turning piglets into full health warpigs, potentially getting a free AP and 4 inches of movement out of the deal. I realize I'd much rather have Nekima than Ulix in a fight, but noting her growth mechanic as a perk isn't convincing. Nekima's contribution to fights is her plink damage through blade rush spam and black blood, with a threatening moderate of 5. When the foe can tank whatever focus spam you got from the shaman's efforts with Hard to Wound or proper soulstone use, her damage isn't sufficient to live through the process of handing your df 5 12 wounds master to the enemy. 
And while I surely appreciate her speed (truly it is her greatest strength) with a whole strategy where flight is useless for the lodestone bearer, and yet another strategy where the model that kills things is expected to live to the end of turn to score, she's not bringing a winning recipe. Sure, I can hire a Hooded Rider to run Leylines solo, and sure, I can try to just, avoid the enemy and take advantage of over-extensions, but at some point, there's a roided out Peacekeeper that wants to eat your face, and you run out of board to flee on. There are masters that can solve such problems head on. While I will always love the God Empress, I made it a goal to get invited to USFT, and I can't risk using her to do so anymore. 

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Two of our local Neverborn players swapped to Ressers due to how fragile Neverborn are. So there is some validity to the complaints.

That said, other than Dreamer, Nekima still feels like the scariest Neverborn to face. The best defense is your opponents being too dead to fight back. For ressers, anyway. I can't imagine you pick Nekima against a shooty faction.

Funny you should mention that, even I jumped to Von Schtook since he seems to be above being nerf batted (+1 cost and a no-jokers clause did basically nothing to Valley's strength or pick rate) and between the admittedly fair BFJ-to-Scamper changes in combination with how much Corrupted Leylines spits in Nekima's flight-placing cheerios, I couldn't maintain my loyalty to the Nephilim. She bounces so poorly off of armor and hard to wound, while her own defenses are so easily overwhelmed as a beater master nowadays that it's not worth it. Lady Justice is in a higher class. 
That being said, Fuhatsu aside, shooting crews have never been a problem for Nephilim in my experience. Sonnia, Parker, Basse, Gunsmiths out of MS&U, I've run the gambit of shooters without real problems. It's the more competitive melee beaters that retired Nekima for me. 

The meaning of successful here is that the Lotus eater dodged the attack, but yes, after success is indeed the intended default timing here.

1 minute ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean to be fair, pushing for any benefits for NVB is like trying to climb a waterfall with three limbs tied behind your back XD

With this description, I am more impressed with the headway we made 

2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

(I blame Kharnage for smashing LVO).

Yeah... Now thank me that it's Scamper and not access to the Quick Getaway Df only trigger found on the Captain. 
Pushing for this in beta was like pulling teeth.