Nagi21

3 minutes ago, dannydb said:

as said previously, the FAQ will be applied in the case of nekima only, not any other cases as far as the world cup is concerned 

That is completely using an example to ignore the entire rule.  The definition of "another" was not limited to just one ability on one master and you know it.

1 hour ago, Alcathous said:

I know Som'er is a monster lol. I'm not saying Dora is in that caliber of "always good" but if you pick her into the right game, it is that oppressive. Key thing is that I'm never trying for the midtable melee. I want to stay solidly on my side of the board, and when the opposing crew sidles up to brawl, I pull in their key models over to me after activation and murder them the next round before they activate. Do that twice and you've usually won the game. Mood swings gives a lot of breathing room to killing unactivated models, so I don't have to rely on winning initiative and spiking damage to make it happen. 

So how are you getting your opponent to your side of the board if there's no schemes to get him to come to your side of the board?  Pandora has the Raspy problem where you want your opponent to come to you, but you can just as easily be forced into a situation where they sit and wait for you and nobody scores (has happened more than once).  

1 hour ago, dannydb said:

Had a question regarding leylines

I'm within 1" of a model with the lodestone, I interact, 

Who can legally receive the lodestone? Is it possible to take ownership of the lodestone with the model taking the interact?

 

Anyone within 6 inches of the model with the loadstone, including the model preforming the interact

Disagree vehemently, as the FAQ/Errata of GG1 clearly defined "another" as "not the model that was the source of the action".  

4 hours ago, Alcathous said:

@Kharnage @Nagi21 I think Castle Dora has a place in Recover Evidence. There's a lot of scheme pools that force a fight or crossing the centreline, which can make a great opportunity to pick a killzone and dominate a fight there. Running her with 2-4 lure effects is pretty easy to do, and you can reliably score your strat points while making it an absolute nightmare for the enemy to get theirs. She's got great options for Hidden Martyrs, is one of our best scorers for Let Them Bleed, and has some of our best anti-scheme tech. She may not be the best, but she's far from DOA. 

I think the biggest problem with Dora in Evidence is that despite being a central bubble master, she's one of the least oppressive ones.  Compare her to something like Som'er or Hamelin and it's not even close in a midtable melee.  So basically while that does play to her strengths, the meta isn't conducive to her because it favors those flexible oppressive crews.  

2 hours ago, Adran said:

It's a bizarre comparison as Wong doesn't use terrain markers and so is completely unaffected by mass marker removal. 

Euri's damage is mostly focused on blasts and shockwaves.  Wong's main damage is blasts and shockwaves.  Seems fine to me.

2 hours ago, farmoar said:

curious as to why you mentioned Wong? did you mean Zipp?

No I meant Wong.  I've not seen much good about him since he mostly relies on shockwaves (like Euri's pillars) and hear more theorycrafting than actual play experience from people.  

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

I'm curious, how is the faction is doing in GG1 so far? With all the craziness in the world these days I've been quite disconected from Malifaux.

Hi everyone btw!

Contrary to the above I would say NVB are probably bottom tier, just above Guild.  While the schemes are definitely more fighty and less scheme-y than GG0, issues with the faction as a whole are coming to light, particularly with the GG1 nerfs and erratas.

As Kharnage said, Dora and Nekima are basically relegated to casual fun games due to just plain being too squishy without adequate compensation.  Lucius has issues due to his skill ceiling, but he's a schemy master in a GG that's not as schemy, so he's suffered as well.  

Dreamer is still good, although most of the hate directed at him is because he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, rather than being particularly strong.  People also think Lucid Dreams is insane (usually the same people who have Brin or Yan Lo or SS miners...).

Euri suffers from the same squish as Pandora and Nekima, and the majority of factions have marker removal easily accessible so he's in the same boat as Raspy and Wong. 

Marcus I don't see people play much in NVB so I assume he's not great.  Zoraida theoretically should be seeing some table time, but the issue with her is Obey still hasn't been clarified much, so whether she's good or not depends on your local meta's interpretation of Obey.  

Titania is about average, but her main issue is damage output vs things that are tanky (i.e. Rezzer) or things that keep you from using your main triggers (fuck you Brin).  She's probably 2nd behind Dreamer right now.

On paper we should be fine, but in practice, the other factions are just plain more murdery on the table and roll over 5/7 of our crews without much issues due to how central GG1 is and how squishy we are vs how murdery we are.  NVB just has bad matchups against meta crews right now.

2 hours ago, ShinChan said:

• Deffensively she's really tanky between Diguised, Demise (Eternal) and Df6. Feed on fear is a bit more situational, but in also helps.
• Offensively she has a decent suite a attacks with really interesting triggers.
  • A 2" melee range with a nice damage track (2/4/6) with a situational trigger.
  • A short range  attack that ignores Friendly Fire, Incorporeal and Armor and can choose to target Df or Wp. The damage track is not impressive and the Stat is "only" 5. The best thing about it is the   trigger, that directly made me win games.
• The main reason why she make it to 9/10 of my lists (probably is even 10/10, but I can't remember) is the bottle of painkillers. Only needs a 4 and it heals and may end a condition on the target. With the trigger of Swift Action! This ability in this model makes the upgrade "Eldricth Magic" mostly useless in NB.

Defensively she's not as bad as some other models at the same cost, say Brin (Serene, Protected, Stones, Knew you were).  I think it's just blown out of the water because the idea of a tanky NVB is verboten around here.  Df6 is heresy in this faction.

Offensively a 2" melee range on an 8 stone model isn't crazy, and Twist Reality is pretty balanced from a damage track standpoint.  Not to mention that it is a major attack on most nightmare models, so any nerfs to that ability would be nerfs to the whole keyword, not that a stat 5 2/3/4 damage attack needs nerfs but it's Wyrd so...

The healing is key and frankly unless there's some better healing, nerfing that doesn't change much unless they nerf it into the literal ground.  Eldritch magic isn't a reasonable substitute because the condition removal portion requires a full AP, and the rest of the card is basically useless. Even if the heal was a 6 people would still take her.  Even if it was heal or end a condition people would still take her.

She's a crucial model because she is literally the only model in the faction that does what she does ( <- Pay attention to that part Wyrd).  It's not we want to take her constantly, it's we have to.

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

My guess is the new Nekima set will be :

Nekima, Blood Hunter, new Mature Nephilim, 2 new Young Nephilim

then 

box of new Terror Tots, leave the current Mature and 2 Young as is and hopefully a new Twins box in the future so we can have different sculpts

just a guess.

or Nekima, Hunter, new Mature, 3 new Tots

and new box with 2 new Young and new Twins.

Twins already have a 3e box so probably a 4 young box if anything.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Mercanaries? Friekorps? I've not kept up on all the new box sets, so I might be wrong, and I might be missing one ( I expect Hoffman to have Melissa). 

Forgot Vanessa wasn't a Hench, although each of those boxes has Enforcers instead.  I think it would be strange for her to have all minions.

14 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think M3E has any precedent for splitting like models apart?

So seems like it will likely be the Nek/totem/2 mature/3 tots with standalone young neph? Or some combination with the odd model out having its own box.

There's still the henchman issue.  I'm struggling to think of any box that doesn't include one.

1 hour ago, farmoar said:

Where have you seen Matures in their own box?

They were in their own box in 2e.  The issue is still that unless they put 2 matures in the box, its not an option, and if you put 2 matures, then what else?  Three tots and a young box on its own?  Also the henchman situation is weird because Hay already has his own box.

4 hours ago, Redgore said:

It would be good to hear something about her crew box, as it would be nice to have a proper model for Blood Hunter.  Do we know if there is a sculpt out there being worked on yet?

As for the possible contents I think we will have Nekima, Blood Hunter, 2 young nephilim and 2 terror tots (although I don't like them in the new rules apart from for growing).

Unlikely since Tots are minion 3, and every box that has come with a minion has come with a full set aside from Hamelin.  The issue is the matures have their own box already, and youngs are minion 4, so that gets weird with logistics.

There's also the Henchman issue since Hayreddin already has his own box out with the BBS.

20 minutes ago, Adran said:

As I said, I'd personally be prepared for him to hold onto 13s for it, so if I can't cheat to reach 18 vs df, then I'd probably not try the attack (unless I have very little hand left when them knowing the cards I hold is much lower power). I know not all people will hold cards that high to cheat df with, but if I don't know my opponent well, then I over assume how they play, rather than under.

Apparently you get 13's in your hand quite often.  It's a bad value proposition for Euri anyway, since bare minimum anything attacking him should tie his DF.  So not only do you need a higher card than your opponent, you need a suit to go with it since it's not built in.  Unless your opponent's hand is already decimated, or you start spending soulstones on the hope you have a high enough card to not get tied, it's not going off reliably, let alone twice.

Df 7 on cheap models is OP, and free cheating with bayou two card is OP, and anyone who disagrees needs to get hired by Wyrd as a designer apparently...

Nekima would've had just as much issue, because Brin shutting down triggers along with stupid amounts of card cycling just causes issues with the crew.  The attrition wasn't the issue, it was that there was no reasonable way to break the Somer, Lenny, Brin, Georgie setup with how mindbogglingly tanky they all are...

Also the 2,2,4,4,8,9 hand on T3 didn't help lol.

13 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would say  access to marker removal in other factions leads you into counter counter pick.

Mass Marker removal is a rare thing, so whilst some factions do have access to it, you will have a good idea about their crew if they try and pick it up. If a guild player is relying on Riotbreaker or Papa to clear away your pillars, then you need a plan to deal with them. Yes, this puts a slightly higher skill demand on the Savage player, but they shouldn't be shut down by 1 bonus action removing pillars.  Your opponent is spending 15% of their crew on buying that action. That's knowledge you can use to your advantage. And both those models will suffer a little from being outside of their keyword (Probably no power tokens for the Riotbreaker, and no Por el for Papa).

If you play savage you need to be aware of models removing your Pillars. But you know this, and can try and take advantage of this.

15% of the crew for the cost of removing the main mechanic of the enemy crew sounds like a really fucking good deal to be honest.

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I find this part a bit weird. My favourite scheme runners are Archie (9 stones) and Dead Rider (11 stones), and Crooligans (4 stones with 8+ stones in delivery system).

Scoring is the most important part of the game. You really have to invest a lot of stones in it. Even a Necropunk isn't going to score if you don't protect it/force enough pressure that they can't attack it.

Oh I'm not saying that 7ss models can't scheme.  I've used everything from a Wicked Doll to Nekima herself to scheme depending on the situation.  My point is that there are a lot of things I'd rather that 7ss model be doing, and even then it's not a dedicated schemer since it's main trick is marker walk marker (assuming it's not engaged).  A lot of the NVB options with scheming is Jack of all (at best) master of none.

3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

While we agree on this, I think w're going off to different conclusions. You seem to be thinking that since this is the case that means it's less useful. And for the average player yes they won't get as much immediate use from the crew. That doesn't mean the crew is noncompetitive though. To determine if something is competitive the assumption should always be that a crew is being played by someone who knows how to play it against a person who has an idea of what it can do.

I mean the easy access to marker removal in over half of the other factions make it non-competitive already.  Casually it's playable enough if you get a decent matchup but there's just too much counter play competitively, just like Rasputina.

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

This just reeks of theoryfaux and not actual experience using the action.

No it's experience, on both sides of the table.  Putting a pillar where it's useful for an allied model but not completly out of position is tricky, plus it requires a very obvious setup.  The Candy bomb was the first (obvious) choice, but I very rarely see that one work out well since she gets too far up the board too fast often (first world problems).  Seen it used for Euri but then you get into what I was talking about where big fist, thin skin.  Long ranged pillars are also usually cleaned up since it's very obvious for setup again until later game.

I think the issue is that shove wants to punish lone models around the table and pick off edges and skirmishers, but those crews are usually found in open games with lots of schemes, which is not what Euri does well at all as a mid range center crew.  What ends up happening then is you try and use it vs a crew that actually wants to play close together, and while several mv shockwaves are nice, 8's are not too hard to fire off, and those pillars are limited to 8" range so you can only do so much with them.  

I think we can agree that:

The crew suffers from a very common thing in marker removal.

The crew is very card (tomes specifically) hungry.

The crew has a very high skill floor.

Put all those together and you have a crew that looks okay on paper but doesn't perform in actual games.

15 hours ago, Da Git said:

With Adze, Wicked Dolls,Young Nephilim and BBS being the stand outs IMO.

The main bad ones that I think really needs improving is Bultungin and Blood Wretch. The problem is is that Wyrd has tried to make both these models something that just doesn't work in this game. Cheap glass cannon attack pieces (that lack a cannon). Both probably need a complete re-work to be made into scheme runners, but here are some simple stop-gap ideas.

Give Bultungin HtK/Stealth and maybe Ambush as a Bonus action in place of Pack Mentality and Coordinated Assault and he'd be fine.

For the Blood Wretch; again, just give it HtK, maybe Unimpeded and you'd be looking good with Mv 6 Risky maneouver.

 

Wicked Dolls need help so that's actually 2 dolls minimum.  Adze is a bit pricy, and more importantly he lacks a way to drop more than one marker per turn unless you go exactly in a straight line with no issues.  The young has a bit more wiggle room on this, but again, I hesitate to use a 7ss model for just scheming, particularly a cruise missile like the Young.  BBS isn't a schemer.  Sure it can scheme like anything else, but it's needed as an early support piece, and a late game grow target.

The faction really just needs something that can be more AP efficient without costing an arm and a leg, or get somewhere were your opponent can't react (see: ss miners).

As far as the suggestions, the Bultungin change would be interesting since it would force your opponent to commit extra or risk losing in a scheme runner fight.  Ambush or leap or something would be good too.

Blood wretches would need more than HtK.  The kit has 0 offensive or defensive power.  What I'd honestly like to see is them with something like a sawed-off shotgun and reposition.  

11 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

They really aren't the worst overall crew. They can struggle a bit into Bayou, Guild and Arcanists because they all have plenty of ways to just mass clear destructible terrain without needing to put thought into it. The biggest thing to look out for are super shooty crews with ways to clear out the ice pillars, because they're gonna clear out all your tricks to cover the distance and just blast you from where all your min 3 doesn't matter.

Worst overall in NVB certainly.  The clearing of the pillars isn't even the worst of it, but it's a major thing.  The crew suffers from:

- Things that clear pillars easily (Bayou, Arc, Guild)

- Things that are either flying or Incorporeal (NVB, Rezzer)

- Things that ignore cover entirely or outmanuver them (TT, Outcast)

Coupled with the natural movement issues of a Ht3, 50mm crew with impassable terrain and... well yea.

13 hours ago, Roadhouse said:

 

Can you expand on this a bit? I haven't played a game since M2E and just finished putting together Euripides box, Cyclops, and Bultungin. Just looking at the cards Euripides and Thoon have a lot of cool tricks. Rune-Etched Ice is a shockwave that leaves behind impassable terrain that Euripides can teleport to, or push for more AoE damage, that can also disrupt the targets positioning. Thoon can bury models and move them around with his chain and Arctic Pull, Doppleganger with him seems nuts. The ice pillars themselves appear really powerful if put in in the right places, but I'm likely ignorant of out of faction tech for removing markers.

 

Thanks in advance.

Euri is a pillar generator and mostly support piece.  It's not that he can't hit things hard, it's that he is lacking defensive abilities to stay alive while doing so.  Making and tossing pillars is his bread and butter, but the crew suffers vs anything above Mv 5 due to this, and Euri has AP needs since the crew needs about 2 AP worth of pillars at a minimum.  The pillars also don't do great damage either.

Thoon is very good because of his attack, but he also suffers from two issues.  1) You can't arctic pull a model away the same turn you freeze them, so you have to have backup unless you catch something out isolated, or be very precise about your activation control. 2) Everyone knows Thoon can be nuts, and they all give him a wide berth, which relegates him to a fairly expensive area denial piece.  Not saying that's a bad thing.  In fact it can be a very, very good thing, but you have to know he has a very specific role to play and is not the end all be all.

Geryon were pretty good, but the IR change hit them like a brick shithouse and now it's almost worth the extra 3 stones for a Mature if you want a big hammer.  They have issues living between activation even with HtK because it's an 8 wd model with no other defenses.  They require a lot of pinpoint positioning, and don't have the mobility to get around easily like the Mature, unless you incorp it with the totem.

Cyclops are a solid support piece, but they die to any consistent fire.  Min 3 damage doesn't work so hot when you can't close the gap reasonably.  Frozen runes is nice, but requires pillars where the action is... so any pillar removal = 7ss paperweight.  The fact that you need a specific tome that you can't stone for to make pillars is also bad, although old ways mitigates that a bit.

Gigants are good but they have some issues too.  Arcing shot is nice, but it's still an 8" range so... a little close.  The biggest issue is that you only get one shot unless your target is within 6", since the boulder states "push models damaged 2" away from this model".  Shattering shove is nice but I feel like it's not used so great due to the damage to pull it off and the weird spots you can put yourself into.  Cave drawings is meh since destroying a pillar isn't an interact, so any model with a bonus action move or something effectively ignores it entirely.

Pillars have issues with the above, plus anything that has significantly more AP than you (see: Collette).  They also block you in due to the 50mm bases on all the savage models.

The crew isn't unplayable, but its not even remotely close to competitive.  Euri is on the same tier as Raspy and Reva, in that there's something there but it just doesn't click together well.

1 hour ago, Jafar said:

I played against Viks recently. Had feeling that during Turn 1 whole crew only made "Walk" actions. Of course, gave Shielded, checked cards with Big Jake etc. But still, it was more or less all like this. Am I missing something?

Can some experienced player share thoughts?

Depends on the matchup and what you're going for.  Mercenary is like Nephilim in that turn 1 is getting into position for Turn 2 unless you're planning an all-in.  I'm sure there's optimizations but walking a lot on T1 isn't uncommon.

8 hours ago, trikk said:

Prospectors. 

MINING ALL DAY
MINING ALL NIGHT
5 STONES A GAME
OH WHAT A SIGHT

 

Another one would probably be Silurids/Necropunks

Prospectors are 6.

1 minute ago, RiceP. said:

Damn, that sucks, i would have to pay almost 60$ to single-print ones i need. What are my options now, besides spending more money or printing them myself?

I'd just use the app, but if you need single cards I think Drive Thru or Warchest can PoD singles reasonably affordably.

5 hours ago, dannydb said:

can you give an example?

 

Example: Thoon takes his frozen trophy trigger, which is a once per turn trigger.  Under the above ruling, if I obey Thoon, he is not the one taking the action, therefore the trigger can be taken twice in one turn since Thoon is not the one choosing or controlling the action (see "once per" pg.33).