Calmdown

It has become pretty ridiculous. Seems like a few people needed to vent ---------- Post added at 10:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ---------- Stop embarrassing us with your failure to use punctuation correctly!

Absolutely possible. However, the skill discrepancy needed for Nicodem to beat Chompy regularly is huge, and as such, it's very unlikely they're *that* much better.

Well a lot of the US players seem to have a lot of respect for said group, but when people start claiming that Nicodem can beat Chompy with any kind of regularity, I have to wonder ...

So now you want to play vs my Dreamer, Zephir does too... anymore of your gaming group want to get in on this?

You take him for the Autopsy bomb, not for anything else. But no, generally he's not worth it and the Autopsy bomb is questionable as a tactic except in very specific circumstances.

Precisely. And it would be no reflection on Zephir to lose, say, 9/10 games with Nico vs Dreamer, assuming terrible luck 1/10 games. In any case, this is the exact situation in which we would consider tier lists useful and so is a good example of what the point of a list like this is; two skilled players playing eachother. Chompy will win on average because he's better than Nicodem, not because of player skill level. ---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ---------- He was being sarcastic I think you'll find

Sure. And if you honestly believe that Nicodem can beat the Dreamer when both are played by good players, I have a bridge to sell you too

Steamborg Awesomecutioner is my favourite guy in Malifaux. He kills stuff dead.

if only!

You can drop 19 of them turn 2 in McMourning with Rafkin. Also theyre a cheap significant model to summon. Use pretty much ends there. If they didnt have 'too far gone' theyd be ok as a summonable ranged option but as it stands, you cant afford to lose corpse counters in most games.

Its amazing how epic a thread gets when people feel insulted by you putting 'their' master in a low tier. There is so much emotion in a lot of the replies that its easy to see why so much judgement is clouded. I actually find it very interesting that people are unable to detach themselves from their local players and their love of certain models and simply look at models on their own merits. And also interesting that people, feeling that they cannot be objective, believe that no one else can be either. In regards to Nicodem in particular, let's say that I'm no slouch with him either, but it doesn't mean that I think he's something he's not. Winning with Nicodem is more an exercise in playskill than him being any good. That wouldn't stop me 8-0'ing each and every one of you all day with The Dreamer, no matter how good a Nico player you are. Interesting thread!

Oh to be a student and have time to waste

There's nothing wrong with this, but I've not once ever actually used it in a game. It's not some uber imba move, just a tool you may sometimes use.

I fail to understand why you need context on an objective discussion. An objective discussion assumes: equal player skill equal luck no meta All of these things are of course impossible to achieve, but ALL discussion would be pointless having unless you fix some variables as you would never be able to draw any conclusion. So take the context as this, if you must: all factors other than the master and models are in equilibrium and we're talking about masters in relative power level to eachother. Clearly in my list, Tier 3 is the baseline due to its size; those below Tier 3 are beneath the expected power curve, and those above Tier 3 are above the curve.

That's kind of tough to define. Guild have nothing in Tier 1. Arcanists have nothing in Tier 1. Rezzers have the most in Tier 5. I think the only clear conclusion in my opinion is that Neverborn and Outcasts are the top factions overall, but that's not really the point of this thread. Masters within factions vary wildly in power level, eg the difference in Kirai and Nicodem. You could argue that Rezzers are a top tier 'faction' because they have one of the best masters in the game, you could also argue that overall they're worst because the bottom Tier is pretty much made up of Rezzers.

It's defined by the relative power level of each master. You should know all of the criteria that define what it is relative to.

Yeh I'm going to move Ramos up a tier in my list I think, actually. I did miss Levi. We're pretty much in agreement on the tiers really, if you let the granularity be fuzzy.

It's not arrogance, its experience. Your tier list shows inexperience.

Avatar is part of what puts the master in his Tier. The only Master that really changed tier with Avatars was Sonnia imho (hence her higher Tier). Hamelin's avatar simply cemented his position in Tier 1, and very few other avatars make enough of a difference to change Tiers. You could argue Ramos and Seamus into Tier 4 maybe, Ramos maybe even into tier 3, but at the end of the day they still have 2 stones and have to spend time and SS turning into an avatar. If avatars didnt exist I'd put Ramos and Seamus even further down the list.

I know a lot of people hate tier lists. But a lot of people don't! As has been recently made evident in another post, a lot of people define Tier lists according to the strength of the players in their local meta playing certain masters, rather than objectively assessing the masters and crews on their own merits. As this hasn't been discussed for a while, I just thought it'd be interesting to write out what I currently consider to be the Malifaux Master tier list and see what people think themselves too. Tier 1+ Hamelin Tier 1 The Dreamer Kirai Tier 2 Pandora, Lilith, Somer, Collette, Sonnia, Collodi, Ophelia Tier 3 Zoraida, Viktorias, Leveticus, Lady Justice, Hoffman, McMourning, Marcus, Von Schill, Kaeris Tier 4 Rasputina, Ramos, Perdita Tier 5 Seamus, Nicodem, Molly, Lucius

Your play experience is clearly defined by a small group of players playing certain masters. For you to think Hamelin is tier 2 shows us that you do not have a good enough Hamelin player. For you to say Lilith is Tier 2 with him shows us you must have a good Lilith player. For you to put Victorias and Lady J so low down shows that you have inexperienced players playing them. To have Levi in Tier 1 shows us you have a very good player running him. And for you to be winning tourneys in this environment, it's likely you're probably better than all of these players. In an environment where you have lots of good players playing these lists, you'd see the tiers work out differently (because your tiers are pretty much flat wrong). You're misinterpreting good players doing well with whatever they play to mean that what they're playing is good. It's a common mistake and very prevalent on these forums. In time as your group expands and your players get better, you'll see what I'm talking about.

He's very good if you make a lot of use of him. For example, when you're using Fresh Meat to give walks to Nico and 8 dogs, it's very much worth it. Fresh Meat has enough range to also be valid on turn 2 even if Morty didnt move. Necrotic Machine can make him Undead so he walks too. You can also flip a free corpse counter turn 1 with a low crow, which is like adding a free Belle/Punk Zombie to your list. If you take holdout, he can lineback for you once he's done. He's not an auto include by any means but he's definitely worth his points in the right situation and list. He does cool stuff, but he also slows you down and requires your list to be built around him, which is often antithetical to certain strategies and schemes. Hit the nail on the head really. You need initiative AND almost one soulstone per cast to make Rigor Mortis effective. The same with Decay, really, unless you're just using it for healing and a few 2-pt heals isn't the greatest use of a master's valuable AP. Totally agree with this too. She herself is a bit boring. The crew is hella fun. Not at all, it didn't. I was just giving some reasoning behind my argument. It's pretty difficult to offend me on a forum. If you're gonna give it, you have to be able to take it as well

I'm pretty sure Rabies is an effect, there's no reason to think it wouldn't be - although there is a tiny question mark over it I've been meaning to ask about, because it says "lose". If it said "target suffers -2wp until the end of the game" it would obviously be an effect. Now, basically everything in this game is an effect so we're kind of breaking the norm here and I can see where you're coming from, but still, there's no reason to think that losing Flammenwerfer is an effect. Guess it's one for the RM backlog...

Hey, there was nod arguing with Graeme. The arguing was with older, experienced players who should know better than to give out such disinformation as "Nicodem is great". I play him and love him as much as the next guy, but be realistic when giving new players advice, please.

Don't confuse making the best of a bad situation with content. None of us want to have to follow self-imposed restrictions to make the game work, which is essentially what most of the UK tourney scene are doing now to avoid having to play with/against the same few masters week in week out. We all love the game to death but it needs work, and we're all looking forward to how it will turn out when that work is done!