karn987

:flame:

Dude... Pandora just got gross! Awesome! *cackles maniacally*

Heh, thanks n0signal, glad to see you haven't wasted away any more ;D. I tried bringing the Desolation to the field as it's self and that pretty much fails horribly, its more then half dead by the tine it makes it to combat. Even then, its not that fast and can be avoided depending on the enemies objectives. This list has some... issues when it comes to objectives you need models to hold objectives with. For Treasure Hunt for exmaple, you have Alyce or Levy probably getting the token, either that or a spare SPA picks it up and runs it to the back. Later if you can, get Alyce or Levy back there to pick it up for the final score. Also since the desolation engine blitz can happen very early on, I suggest you target the enemy with Levy and Alyce before you send in the Engine, you want to wear down their hand. You attack with no other purpose then really cutting down their hand and maybe even burning their SS's if possible. Make sure you get Levy's draw trigger as often as possible, your going to want a good hand when the Engine starts up.

Levi Alyce 8ss 4 Steam Punk Abominations (3e) 12ss Total 20ss with 5 ss cache I play a very classical Levi list but it works rather well. Levi moves up field with Alyce nearby. The two of them will kill anything that gets within 12" and LOS, their damage output is insane. I generally kill Levi every other turn with this style since he very rarely comes under direct assault so I just let him slowly kill himself off, doing Death's Leasons when I need to make sure I get a good flip etc etc. The 4 SPA leapfrog up field as Ive described in other posts, effectively going 12" and summoning the desolation engine another 6 from that, so a 18" blitz with that huge guy. For added danger Alyce does Burn Out on one of the SPA's as it moves up field. That SPA doesn't use reactivate, it keeps to its normal activations. So when the Desolation Engine is summoned, it has Reactivate on it. So it gets a double activation that will most likely be well after your enemy finishes their activations. Since you can summon within 6" of the summoning model, you can do this through buildings and basically get him where they didnt expect to see him. As we all know, the Desolation Engine is one nasty dude to. I try to start out his blitz turn by picking off a pidly (or something pidly to the Desolation Engine ;D) and using Desolate Warping to make another SPA. I try to avoid going after the master unless its one of the low def masters (like Ramos/Pandora etc) then it may be worth going after them. Otherwise this thing goes to town killing and maiming all supporting units and front liners. Yes it is then reduced to 1 wd thanks to Burn Out, but it's done it's job. It's probably just leveled everything around it. Make sure you stay close to a cluster so you maxamize Industrial Nightmare and then cast Desolate Supplications, yeah you need an 11 of tombs to pull it off >.> but it will hurt everything around it. Sure it dies next turn, but you get 2 more SPA's and with luck the Engine made 2 more during its turn so now you have 4 again to make another one of these beasts. Big risks, losing the SPA's to a long range high damage blast early on. Though if your careful, and play with terrain ;D, you shouldn't have much trouble with this. Activate them last in your turn and use Levy and Alyce to clear the way for them.

:party:

Fah, we were thinking they may just be previews of what is to come, like the Pandora Avatar mini.

So wait, Twisted having nothing to do with Malifaux? Why were they in the same preview catalog a while back... my LGS thought they were another faction because of the layout of it..

If I recall, the Governor General's GUild HQ is near the Hanging tree which I would imagine to be on a big center island with the road going around it and circling it. I think there would be numerous other guild related buildings there, sorta forming a caldesack (yes I fail at spelling) there? Maybe McMournings old Mortuary? Though I think that is the guild Mortuary, either way though. Some gun/weapon shops, gotta imagine there are a bunch of them around. Maybe border one of the sides of the board with the wall to one of hte sealed off sections of Malifaux? Carridge houses, various shops, one could even be the one Alyce busts into to get her dress for the story in the Malifaux Cronicles.

Hmmm the Hooded Rider, I always forget he is a construct. Well he is certainly a much quicker threat, though he is melee only and offers no support abilities. His Passage of Time can make him a ranged unit hunter, a debuffer, or a straight up damage machine. He is rather fast, Mounted Combat letting him move and strike like mad. My issue with him is the same one I have with Teddy, no melee expert so it makes him a bit slow on the damage. He atleast has Mounted Combat to counter that effect, but still, I have only haveing 1 attack on a charge D=. He is an intersting substitue for Alyce, basically switching in quick melee damage for a ranged supporter. Its worth a try ^^. Though you may not need the melee since you already have the SPA's and thusly the Desolation Engine ;D.

Ill add to this for the SPA's and Desolation Engine, Levy has his own thread which I've put my thoughts into already. Just for a note, I use these guys regularly and love them, they are two of my favorite units in the game. They play a bit strangely compared to the other models in the game, but they are nasty. =D Oh by the way, word vomit! :blah: Steam Punk Abominations: Yes these little buggers are a bit of a head scratchier the first time you look at them. But they are only 3 ss each, so right off the bat they are a good cheap unit. Their stat line is nothing amazing and mostly a bit bellow average, but then again they are 3 ss each ;D. They have 1 melee weapon which has a lowish CB but still enough to hit most things in the game, just stear them away from the high Df targets unless your confident you can hit them. Hard to wound 1 gives them some help with surviving, making it so you can live through most weak attacks and generally eating through your enemies deck. Warped gives you the counter type you need at the moment and Caustic Aura can be a fun little addition, I like it because it burns the enemies deck and sometimes it actually goes off! Anomaly is how you keep them safe when moving up field, in my next little blurb on movement, you always want your second ap to be this. Their triggers are nice, Consuming Touch rarely comes into play (since 3 wds often means either full health or dead). Desolate Warpings is great, but these guys are a bit hard pressed to kill anything. Though using them to make the finishing blow is always a good idea. Honestly the most interesting thing about these little guys are Hobbled and Keep Pace and a trick involving this. So hobbled, they can only move once per turn, yeah that kinda sucks for them, but wait! Theres more! Keep pace is how you get them up field, you deploy 4 of them (always want 4 of them if your going to bring them, need to make Big D ;D) in base to base. Because of the base size etc, you can get all of them in b2b with 2 of them: __a _bcd something like that, can't exactly draw it well here. But all of them are in b2b with a and c. So what you do is move a first, drag all the rest with you and you push so b and d are in the front. Now you have b move and take a with him and then d move and make sure d moves in such a way as to place himself and a and b back in b2b with c. You then have c move and drag them all along and after this wonderful 12" of movement, you have 1 ap left, whatever shall you do with it? Concentrated Deformations is what! Summoning the Desolation Engine 6" from c and suddenly you have just sprinted it 18" up the board and it still has an activations. For added fun, have Rusty Alice do Burn out to one of them as they are moving up so that when they form the Desolation Engine, it gets Reactivate. Just make sure not to use up the Reactivate on the SPA you put it on ;D. The way I see this unit is, if you are going to bring them and not just make them, you want to use this movement trick to get a Desolation Engine up field in a hurry. Desolation Engine: What a mean sucker, this thing is a powerhouse of pure utter awesome. So lets take a look at his stat line, a mix of everything, he has high wounds and a good speed with decent casting and horrible defense. His weapon is freaking great! Paired, so you have a positive flip on attack already, and good Cb with a nice damage spread and he has the suite for his triggers. Hard to wound 1 helps keep him alive, honestly I wish it was HTW 2 but ah well, cant have everything ;D. Lost focus makes it so you will always recoop some of your losses with this big guy. The SPA's are summoned to it, so that means withing 6" of it, which lets you say hide them behind a building ;D. These are brand new models to, so they get to activate this turn still! Though with slow, but oh well, heh. Industrial Nightmare is hilarious, if this thing lives to the end of a closing phase after you rocket it up into the enemy line they are going to have some semi tough duels to pull off or take some pain. This can be great for getting some damage on a swarm of piddly units like terror tots or Ronin or spiders. Necrotic Repository Ive never used, I suppose it could be useful for Levy to do if on that same turn your going ot make a major strike at the enemies master, but otherwise, why sacrafice it? Unstable Creation literally defines this things entire existance, but remember, it takes the wd after it finish the action. So you can with your last wd, strike and heal up with consuming touch trigger and cheat death basically. It is a melee expert which just compounds to the danger it posses. Consume gives it the chance to heal up a bit if you have a spare SPA hanging around (which you probably will ). Unnatural Feeding is sorta meh, I wouldn't sac one of my models for a single card, but thats jsut me. Warped ANomaly is how it survives ranged attacks as well, protecting it from guns and spells with the gun symbol. It has the same triggers at the SPA's but with a much nastier stat line to use them. It will need to use Consuming Touch on just about every attack to keep it's wds up and Desolate Warpings when your doing a killing blow. It's one spell, Desolate Suplications is freaking great. I love this spell, and yes he needs to draw an 11 of tombs or higher to pull it off, but thats 2 damage to all within 6" of him, stack that with his Industrial Nightmare and a full turn of eating faces and this guy is a hurricane of damage. So overall this guy is big and a bit unwieldy but his damage potential per turn is single to none but hte master who creates him. He will shread the biggest things in the game and giggle as his very existance kills the piddlies around him. My best advice for using him, use the SPA delivery system I described above. Otherwise he is taking 1 wd every time he moves and that will very very quickly add up. By the time he reaches melee, he will be more then half dead if he ever reaches it. A smart enemy will just run him around, never engaging him if they can help it. The Desolation Engine is ALL offense, its defensive abilities are lacking and it most likely wont live through a round of concentrated attack. So what this means is, you MUST kill your targets and keep yourself safe by killing anyone who can hurt you. I seariously recomend NOT sending this guy at the enemy master right off the bat, they will still have all their SS and will be able to cheat fate and SS up their df duels to dodge you. Instead use it to kill the masters army, whipe out the support units and clusters of dangerous units. Toss him at a block of ranged units and watch him wipe the floor with them. Hurl him into the biggest thing the enemy has and watch him break it over his knee like Bane did to Batman. He is by no means unstoppible, make sure you drill this into your head before you use him. He is ALL offense. He survives through eliminating all threats to him and keeping his wounds as high as he can. Do not let the enemy get free shots on him if you can help it, he's not a tank by any means.

Well the long and short answer is, she is very useful for him. Can he win without her? 100% yes! Her single biggest benefit to Levy is Something to Live for, giving him 2 cards to draw during the draw card phase. But you can get by without this, you just have to carefully ration your hand and abuse Levy's Disciplined Caster trigger (you should on every cast). She provides about 8ss worth of damage and power to the field, so finding something better then her is going to be a bit hard. Bag of Tricks is a nice little icing for her, but mostly thats to keep her alive. Her spells can be amazing, but again maybe thats not what your looking for for your 8 ss. Really what you will lose by taking her out is another source of SPA's (yes her spell is a terrible bargain for it, but it still gives you one), some card draw for Levy, Reactivate for one of your constructs, and a nasty ranged model. She has one of the best guns in the game as well, and headshot can be a mean trick to pull near the end of a turn. So over-all, yes you can do without her. Heck you may do better without her, she isn't a must include and isn't a crutch Levy has to stand on. She simply works very well with him. Im curious though, what would you take with him instead of her?

:whip:

1, 2, 3, word vomit! :blah: Alright, your lists basic over-all meta is that it is a launcher platform. You prime your missiles and then send them off to reek their havoc and death. This is a fine idea but it has the weaknesses of a ranged army mixed with that or a buff first army. What this means is that your dummy activations are the activations that will do damage and if you prime before the enemy is done with their activations, they know whats coming and can deal with it. An aggressive list will literally run down your throat and smack you upside the head. Lets go with an example I know so well, Levy, alice, and 4 SPA (yes I know, this is only a 25ss list). The entire list moves up on turn one and will be safe through terrain, etc. There will be no missile turn one unless we are playing on a board with no terrain. So turn 2, the SPA's hop skip and jump forward their crazy leapfrogged forward their 12" and can then summon to the Desolation Engine another 6". Total threat of 18" just for the summon and then the Engine it's self is reach 2" so really, threat 20" from big bad DE. Yes, this is sacrificing him in the end, but he WILL kill what he is after unless it is the master and judging by how your idea would work, your clustered. He has 1 ap and 1 melee expert to kill his target and do any extra damage he can and then cast Desolate Supplications to ping all your weak spam units. You will probably resist most of them, but if I get one or two of them, its worth it. Then the Engine will probably die, I've had it live before (funny as heck the next turn) but it really should crumble. But bye then the nurse is probably dead along with loco and the rest aren't feeling to good and I now have SPA's in your back line! Levy saunters up, taking his time with Alice and the two of them finish your units off rather easily since none of them except big Z can stand up to either of them. I can also always give a SPA reactivate from Alice and not use the activation until I turn it into the Desolation Engine and then that gets reactivate. So that's what I mean by an aggressive list taking apart your launching platform. Obviously this isn't perfect, nothing ever is, but this is a good example to make my point. This would work with any fast moving, or heavily defensive list that can run ram-shot down your throat. Either way, I hate arguing this sort of thing. Hopefully you understand what I mean now, I thought you would have already thought of this before. Agressive styles can just simply beat a list like this down through sheer speed and brawn. Heavy armor lists just walk up and giggle as you try in vain to hurt them. Specialist lists just do what they always do, say no and make you listen. Ranged lists just shoot, etc. Its a cool idea, but it is by no means an ultimate list. It will catch people of gaurd the first time if they don't put 2 and 2 together quick enough and it will be an issue for more balanced lists that try to mix ranged and melee. But besides Loco, you have very little that is a real threat to a master unless you can grow a terror tot to a mature quick enough. So hopefully you take away from this the point Im trying to make, and not focus on the holes Im poking to make the point. Hopefully I made my point well enough as well, not always easy to view it from outside the box ;D

Yes, with a bunch of dummy activations you can pull this off, but its still a 1 shot deal and all I have to be is spread out by about 5" and loco isn't that dangerous. That or just meet Loco head on with a good hand and cancel out any of his abilities with my own. Loco, all juiced up like this, takes 2 support models to get him going and then his duel activations, its a lot of time to see it coming. Even then, if the enemy has any armored units, they are just going to run straight into him and giggle. Your idea does make people focus on Loco and fear him for that 1 big go he can do. But once they realize it's not that bad, they will simply brush him aside like you can any model in this game. The list has weaknesses, like any list, which you habitually seem to try and ignore Raintar. The terror tots are good models but very easy to kill like any spam model when you want them dead. The whole idea of making a missile platform army is interesting, but not a very strong list. Its fun and probably a hoot the first time. It just takes an aggressive enemy to bring that list crumbling to the ground, but that's not what this thread is about. I will instead simply suggest you try to seem less full of yourself when you post your list ideas. Your previous "ultimate list" posts from other threads should be evidence enough of how this turns out.

Ahh good catch. So if you put Painkillers on Loco, he would die after his first activation before he can reactivate due to Speed.

I bet this has been asked before, but my search fue is week today. :stoned: When McMourning makes a Scalpel Slingin' action, is the strike a ranged attack? Or is it a melee attack? I think it's just a ranged 6" melee attack, but I'm not 100% on it >.>

You make a heat seeking missile for 17 soul stones and as soon as they realize whats going on (which they will the first buff you put on loco) they will spread out and take measures to defend against this. This only works once and then loco is long gone. Plus once he is buffed up, he will do his first activation then have to wait for the opponents to do their next activation before reactivate comes into play. That gives them a chance to react and do something to stop him. Sure he can't be killed, but you don't need to kill him to stop him. His wp is horrible so if you can shut him down through that route, he's a piece of cake to stop. He's not immune to terrifying and he is only a 4 wp, he can be forced to flee rather easily to. Also, even though he gets +4cb with his melee weapon, he still has to hit with it and a bad flip can ruin this rather quickly. Its a one shot deal since he will probably get 1, maybe 2 attacks off before his time is up and he goes away. BTW just so you know, BOOM! wont go off because Loco will be sacrificed and Killed and Sacrificed at different things in this game, so hope you weren't counting on that. This really isn't an insane combo, it's cool but its by no means insane. You basically make a loco missile and fire him off towards the enemy. I like the idea, the visual in my head of Loco, frothing at the mouth as he runs at Sonic like speeds towards the enemy, lighting all his Dynamite as he goes, getting shot and stabbed by everything he passes and still some how living to jump into a group of people in the back and start throwing Dynamite.

I don't think there are any masters that deserve the title "weak" by any means. They are all great models that can be extremely dangerous if played correctly. Plus with some masters not having the number of units yet to totally flush them out (Marcus is a good example of this) I wouldn't say any are really worse then the others. If we were to go with, least impressive ( A more fitting idea I think). I would go with Marcus, Lady Justice, and big mamma Z. They are cool in there own way, but I find them slightly underwhelming over-all. They have their high points and their low points, but I just haven't been terribly impressed with them over-all. Heck Lady justice is on there because she is very 1 dimensional in my eyes and sure she is hella dangerous, but still... just sorta meh.

Candy's scissors would work. But I dont think you can get bits from Wyrd Games yet ... but they would be the exact right size I think. I love the idea of doing him with scissor blade fingers, if I can figure out a different base model to use I think I will try something like that to. The mouth I like, heh, staring at Sketch's avatar since he changed it just waiting for that face to paint. They make little stuffed bear like ornaments sometimes, maybe I can find one of those for a new body... take off the face and put on Teddys... hmmmm

Oh yes, the belly has so much possibility for painting and the fur came out great from the molds! It's just... not a very dynamic sculpt, that's the words for it.

I love the Teddy model, it's an amazing sculpt but I really wish one thing was done different. Instead of having a very static pose, I wish his arms were a separate pieces and weren't posed quite the way they are. I really want to redo his pose, but it's not really possible with him being one solid block. Granted this makes him the most durable model in my collection, but I wanted to be able to add a bit more flare to him. But that's just me wishing for a bit more, otherwise Im very happy with him. I'd like to know how some other people are planning on painting/customizing him. Especially when it comes to customizing him and his base. Pics would be amazing to! I think I'm going to jump on the care-bear band wagon and paint him like a care-bear gone wrong. Plenty of gore to go with the sweet value instilling bears of the past.

Many models are as quick as the Ronin, quite a few can move just as fast or threat as much distance. On your #2, never assume someone is going to think the way you do. Spell it all out to be sure there is no confusion. This also goes for your #1, if you had just broken it down, no one would have be confused. I'm not sure why you think Raspy, Ramos, Levy, and Pandora are easy to kill either, unless your not playing the game correctly. Those can be some of the hardest to kill masters hands down, Levy being actually keeping him down. I'm not going to bother debating how and why, this isn't the place for that. The way you reference the Ronin's success suggest you are playing from your hand on most of the flips they make. Since you already said you swarm with them, you will very quickly be out of any useful cards. This is a problem with any swarm style of fighting and all the opponent has to do is push you here or there and your burning your hand faster then your Ronin can move. I'm rather sure that when you push, you suffer terrain effects. Yes the push entry says you are not considered to be moving, but I think this is for dealing with effects that react to your movement along the lines of free strikes, linked models following you, etc. NOT in reference to terrain. The reason Run Through says push, seems to be so you don't get nailed by free strikes and other effects that react to movement. Not so you can walk through walls. Push very clearly states that you MOVE the model. p. 47 "When a game effect pushes a model, move the distance indicated by the effect causing the push." Yes it also states your not considered moving, but I already explained my view on that. Also yes this could refer to the physical action of moving the model or the game term, not my call to make. I can't recall if Marshals have dealt with it before, but it could probably use being addressed here again.

Falling back due to Mental Anguish would 100% not trigger Teddy's Smell Fear. All Moral Duels are Wp duels, but not all Wp duels are Moral Duels. She works well with Teddy becuase she makes everyone within 12" suddenly have the chance to flee when Teddy gets close. Project Emotions on the target before hand to give them the negative flip on Wp duels kills any chance of cheating the flip and then Trapped in Your Own Nightmare can be a ton of fun on a Projected Emotions model when Teddy is near. Everything.... is ... so ...scarey... AHH! Teddy Beaaarrrghhhh *wet meat squishing noises*

*cracks knuckles* Here we go. 1)They are 4/6 Wk/Cg and they have no ability to charge any further then normal. If your going to make that point again, please try to better explain it this time. They can go 12" with 2" reach if that is what you mean, please better format your points. 2) The Razorspine is insanely fast and it's best option with the 2nd ap is to do Constrict to max its damage. Either way, different factions, comparison is flawed. 3) It has already been established that Ronin are indeed very dangerous offensive models for their points. But there are a great deal of models that can inflict this much damage that fast. This isn't to shocking, especially because those are easy to kill support units. 4) Thats how you beat a shooting unit, you run ramshot into it's face and stick pointy things it it's body. Slurid do this much better and its a familiar tactic. I do it all the time with my froggy friends or Terror Tots, pretty much standard strategy. 5)Many units can drop this guy in 1 hit, or they just throw slow or some other debuff on him and his threat is much smaller. This is just like any other melee monster in your back lines, it sucks when it happens and it does require a lot of focus. Ever tried to kill an Executioner in your back lines? Thats hard, freaking slow to die and love the job, fat wolverine *grumbles*. 6) Hard to Kill is what lets you sruvive the distance to the enemy and make you hang around an annoying amount of time. Otherwise, its rather easy to deal with, (You will evaporate in Pandora's web of effects for example). Also Harmless, while cool, is easy to deal with if you have a 6 or 7 in your hand, since thats all most models need to pass the check. You need to give them a negative flip on wp to make harmless a PITA. 7) Um, Punk Zombies are from a different faction and have different META values in the game. But if you insist, Self-Mutilation and Slice and Dice get around Hard to Kill. But I'm not going to continue with this since yet again, comparing models cross faction and in a vacume does not work. 8) Huh? If you mean you will play the unit to its strategic purpose, um, good job? Thats what I would honestly expect. 9) Even in a single player game, hyper aggressive units like Ronin tend to be drawn into traps. The best players get caught in these, they are designed for that purpose. Bait and switch to remove a PITA model, was it worth it? Ask your opponent. 10) True you can do this to move even faster, but I will take that little damage on your Ronin to do that. It moves them into the realm of easy to kill even with their Hard to Kill ability. Plus it also burns your hard for that turn trying to mitigate the damage and you never know, you could flip some high damage. Either way, go right ahead and good thinking. 11) Ronin, like EVERY model in this game, can be rather easy to kill if you try hard enough. As it has already been said a few times, special abilities is what hoses these guys. If you for example, get caught in Pandora's web of effects, these guys melt. Levy will just whipe them out without a thought. Teddy will happily make them flee then charge and eat their face. The Ortegas will put more holes in their head then they will have head. The point is, they are nothing to special when it comes to special effects =D. 12) Why send a melee guy to do the job of a specialist or a ranged guy honestly? You keep comparing things that are close to their same value going against them when it is more then likely, something much more powerful will go hunting them. I'd send my master to deal with them personally, I'd rather not risk my units when my 1 master can kill 2+ of them without having to try to hard. I see your points that they are a dangerous unit but you are basically freaking out about how mean they are in game theory. In practice, they aren't bad but eh, they are just another dangerous unit that you make sure dies, nothing to special. I think you need to play more games of Malifaux and against a wider variety of units to. So to summarize, they are a dangerous unit. No one is disputing this, but I don't think they are THAT dangerous. They are not that hard to deal with when actually playing the game because it just takes a little power to wipe them out (like everything else). Their threat and damage output is rather nice, but there are other things that meet and beat this level of threat range/damage. They are only 6 wd's with average stats across the board, when it comes to someone actually attacking them, they are glass cannons in the end. Hard to Kill gives them 1 trick to live, and all that takes is 1 more attack to finish them off. Sure, they are a maneuverable precision strike unit which is great! I love those kinds of things, and they do it well. But they get in their, hit their target, and get out if they can. I don't see whats broken about that at all. So please, don't insult people here, don't insult the company, and please don't insult the community. If you want to debate on a topic, do it rationally without ranting on the post and trying to debase the people you are speaking with.

*takes up a hammer, eyes BugKing* I hate spider bombs..... Had Pandora running in circles for an entire blasted game once! Buggers killed nearly everything in the crew and she barely lived with 1 wd left. Evil little buggers ...